General Fight Club

[Lucre]

You make that decision based on how available and multicolour you want to make the spell velocity decks and how you want to incentivize black. Tomb stalker will be a waaaay higher pick these days (since Tasy Grr) I pwomise

Oh also you have to remember 4 is the new 3 at wizards apparently so a 5/5 can go pretty far, and with the "lesser son" effect you can table a gurmag when you could never get a second look at sassy girl. Beats up 4/5s for 2 mana and makes people wana play black, what's not to like?

 

[safra]

Grillo's not into Enlightened Tutor over in the Astral Slide thread. I think the card is objectively cool, and strong, so what's the deal here? He's tutoring for Bitterblossom, which I don't even run, but in an environment without stronger (DT, Consultation or even Vampiric) tutors the flexibility for mana investment just can't be beat imo. Mystical Tutor is similar but sets up sick, sick Miracle plays and its Legacy banning is a casualty of Reanimator getting to (disturbingly consistently) set up turn 2 protected kills. (you, uh, mystical for the duress, or the show and tell, or the sideboard card games 2 and 3, or you pitch it to Force)


So, if you had to add one of these to my Cube, which one would it be? Another tutor instead? I know RavebornMuse likes Rhystic Tutor but I emphatically do not.



Brief pros/cons:
E-Tutor: art is gorgeous, card's situationally sweet (sucks sometimes), but I don't actually have very much enchartifact-based combo outside of Ascendancy, Pod, and Whip. Quarantine Field makes up the card disadvantage late-game, which is when you're tutoring for it anyway.
Mystical Tutor: Better for supporting Doomsday combo, which builds really spell-heavy and needs a little more love. Terminus gets better. Do I actually need Terminus to be better?

OTHER OPTIONS:
Worldy: no. I don't need another instant to tutor creatures in green, and would prefer to bolster the Enchantment or Artifact dude-tors instead.
Rhystic: too much mana and too unreliable
Vampiric: finds Wasteland too early, too good too often.
Entomb: I could be convinced to run Entomb again. Card rules.
Ponder: I could go for another Ponder instead too
Brainstorm: 3 is plenty right now, I think
Imperial Seal: Sorcery doesn't make up for the extra t2 Wastelands. Also, boring.

bonus fight club: Stern Proctor vs Leonin Relic-Warder ALLEZ CUISINE

 

[Aston]

I run both and they're both fine. I think if I had to pick one I'd go with Enlightend, because 1. Artifacts and Enchantments tend to have more unique effects than instants and sorceries and 2. Blue is already good at finding situational 1-ofs without needing a tutor especially compared to white.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Run them both.

Re: Enlightened Tutor, tbh I don't agree with the perspective that you need to have "enchantifact-based combo" to run it in a list, and IIRC that's the same sort of thinking that caused Reanimator to be a problematic archetype to include historically in cube, pushing for the combo instead of appreciating it as a value-oriented strategy. You've got over 50 artifacts & enchantments, and of them, over 40 are very worthy tutor targets. I run the tutor any time I have 1 bomb target or more than 1 utility target. Sometimes it's cool enough and fun enough to just draw the exact card you want, combo-shenanigans aside! I can't count how many times a tutored Hangarback Walker, Quarantine Field, or Animate Dead has radically shifted the game and saved my ass (or Villain's) from near-certain defeat. It's a phenomenally cool card.

Mystical Tutor meanwhile hits.. over 100 cards in your cube? Like CMON run that thang! I know I used to be pretty "meh who needs more tutors they make the game linear" but the answer is EVERYONE NEEDS NARROW TUTORS BECAUSE THEY ARE A BLAST. Seriously, do not overlook the ability to dig out 1 very bomby card or 1 of a few very useful utility cards at instant speed for 1 mana. It is a cool-ass thing to have and I guarantee you that both of those cards are going to be main deck picks most of the time. E-Tut is maindeck here like 80%+ of the time and M-Tut is easily 90%+. They are both REALLY COOL. Narrow tutors are REALLY. FRIGGIN. COOL.

tbh I think Terminus is essentially the ideal boardwipe because it has a combo-mode and a very fair non-combo price while also putting token and recursive decks to bed, but that's a format-based decision you've got to make about how you want your control decks to engage with the game.

Worldly Tutor also gets a strong recommendation from me because setting up Collected Company somewhat is a cute trick and also, again, it's just cool to draw what you want sometimes. It also gives green a cool dimension between 2 Collected Company, Worldly Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, and Oath of Nissa to be this creature-tutoring machine, which to me has played much more excitingly than relying on the awkward (in my low-CC list anyway) device that is Birthing Pod. idk about yall but green to me has cool meat biscuits and REALLY BORING SPELLS most of the time, so centering my green spells around creature-oriented selection has been a real cool thing and I highly recommend it. Graveyard shenanigans + creature-oriented card selection has led to green being a really fun colour to draft into over here, and Worldly Tutor is part of that coolness. (also EOT Worldly Tutor for Sheoldred, Whispering One, Darkblast Villain's biscuit, draw step dredge, main phase Exhume is just one of the many cute things Worldly Tutor + dredge tricks can enable). Worldly Tutor also has an over 90% include rate and has performed beyond my expectations. I love it, and I think every green section should give it a shot.

Also Rhystic Tutor fuckin sucks but it's so hilarious to cast that my drafters won't let me cut it yet. I am in a fun prison of my own making. I feel like that little girl from the Wendy's sign trapped in some nightmarish McDonald's Playplace crawl-tube labyrinth being chased by a Grimace of my own making.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

But, could you clarify your position on whether you think they're cool or not please?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Mystical is pretty sweet if you run it with terminus.

The problem with using these tutors as value pieces is that you go down a card when you cast them.

If we are going to run situtational tutors my vote is demonic consultation and lab maniac in the same cube: that way I can tutor for humpus wumpus and have it be a legit play.

 

[Dom Harvey]

I like ETutor because white is very bad at card drawing/selection and dislike MTutor because blue is emphatically not very not bad

 

[CML]

tutors are always fun cube cards

dno wasteland issues prob too good already if you can card disad tutor and win

 

[safra]

tutors are always fun cube cards

dno wasteland issues prob too good already if you can card disad tutor and win

it's not too good but it's slightly over my putting up with whining tolerance

congregation is super sweet are you casting it t3 or lategame?

 

[Jason Waddell]

Grillo's not into Enlightened Tutor over in the Astral Slide thread. I think the card is objectively cool, and strong, so what's the deal here? He's tutoring for Bitterblossom, which I don't even run, but in an environment without stronger (DT, Consultation or even Vampiric) tutors the flexibility for mana investment just can't be beat imo. Mystical Tutor is similar but sets up sick, sick Miracle plays and its Legacy banning is a casualty of Reanimator getting to (disturbingly consistently) set up turn 2 protected kills. (you, uh, mystical for the duress, or the show and tell, or the sideboard card games 2 and 3, or you pitch it to Force)


So, if you had to add one of these to my Cube, which one would it be? Another tutor instead? I know RavebornMuse likes Rhystic Tutor but I emphatically do not.



Brief pros/cons:
E-Tutor: art is gorgeous, card's situationally sweet (sucks sometimes), but I don't actually have very much enchartifact-based combo outside of Ascendancy, Pod, and Whip. Quarantine Field makes up the card disadvantage late-game, which is when you're tutoring for it anyway.
Mystical Tutor: Better for supporting Doomsday combo, which builds really spell-heavy and needs a little more love. Terminus gets better. Do I actually need Terminus to be better?

OTHER OPTIONS:
Worldy: no. I don't need another instant to tutor creatures in green, and would prefer to bolster the Enchantment or Artifact dude-tors instead.
Rhystic: too much mana and too unreliable
Vampiric: finds Wasteland too early, too good too often.
Entomb: I could be convinced to run Entomb again. Card rules.
Ponder: I could go for another Ponder instead too
Brainstorm: 3 is plenty right now, I think
Imperial Seal: Sorcery doesn't make up for the extra t2 Wastelands. Also, boring.

bonus fight club: Stern Proctor vs Leonin Relic-Warder ALLEZ CUISINE

I think both are reasonable to support. In my mind it entirely depends on how easy you want Miracle set-ups to be. I absolutely would not run Mystical in an Entreat cube, unless said cube was aiming for a super high power level. Mystical for Terminus doesn't feel broken to me.

 

[Eric Chan]

Looking for another finisher for blue decks. Any of these worthwhile? Write-in suggestions also appreciated!



(Already running Aetherling and Steel Hellkite, and not interested in Frost Titan or Consecrated Sphinx)

 

[Chris Taylor]

I've been loving doom engine lately

 

[safra]

Looking for another finisher for blue decks. Any of these worthwhile? Write-in suggestions also appreciated!

(Already running Aetherling and Steel Hellkite, and not interested in Frost Titan or Consecrated Sphinx)

if you're reaching to seven mana i've been pretty big on Sphinx of the Final Word lately; it feels justifiable to run a trades-and-bombs control deck when you know your big flying souffle isn't gonna fall in the oven during the mirror

scuttles is great too

 

[Onderzeeboot]

if you're reaching to seven mana i've been pretty big on Sphinx of the Final Word lately; it feels justifiable to run a trades-and-bombs control deck when you know your big flying souffle isn't gonna fall in the oven during the mirror

scuttles is great too

Yeah, Sphinx of the Final Word is great, and so is the DOOM Engine!

 

[RavebornMuse]

I'd take Keiga, the Tide Star any day, such a fun card

Meloku the Clouded Mirror has a soft spot in my heart, too. SOOOO good outside of powered lists while still feeling not quite as bullshitty as Aetherling

Icefall Regent is good and so is Body Double but neither are reliable as pure "finishers" I suppose but I do I want to highlight how cool they are (they cool)

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'll add Guardian of Tazeem to the list, which has been consistently excellent in my list. I'm now trying out Deepfathom Skulker as my six drop of choice.

 

[sigh]

Fun with Madness and Flashback and Delve, and great for card selection, I like:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Fun with Madness and Flashback and Delve, and great for card selection, I like:

I'm always a concerned that this is a bit too hard to deal with. Scrying 3 every turn is also really, really strong, maybe even better (or at least scarier) than "Whenever this attacks, draw a card."

 

[Chris Taylor]

deffinitly not better than. An increase in card quality isn't going to help you pull ahead like more pure cards usually will.
Also, given that killspells tap it rather than becoming useless, I like him

 

[Eric Chan]

Those are all fantastic suggestions - thank you to all of you!

I like the idea of Prognostic Sphinx as a hard-to-kill finisher, but I'm also really enamoured with Sphinx of Lost Truths at the moment, and worry that they overlap too much, even though I realize the latter is more of a value body and less a true finisher. Meloku the Clouded Mirror is a great idea, and although I removed it a while ago because I wasn't a big fan of the token spam, perhaps you're right in that it's actually less feel-bad than Aetherling.

I think I'm going to go with Scuttling Doom Engine, because it's also useful to decks other than just blue control. Then, if the deck is still lacking in bodies, Keiga, the Tide Star can come in as a pinch-hitter as well.

 

[Meltyman]

I havent seen Scuttling Doom Engine played in 10 cube games, so i took it out.
Flying is where it's at any hoot.

Meloku is great, although might be a bit too powerful for some cubes.
I use Keiga and Meloku, they are both great and since they are only one U, you see them more often than not.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I havent seen Scuttling Doom Engine played in 10 cube games, so i took it out.
Flying is where it's at any hoot.

Meloku is great, although might be a bit too powerful for some cubes.
I use Keiga and Meloku, they are both great and since they are only one U, you see them more often than not.

I have lost two games to Scuttling Doom Engine in my last draft, so your mileage may vary I guess

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I really, really like Sphinx of Jwar Isle. People call it boring, but it reliable ends the game in a non-mana intensive fashion. Basically every other 6 mana finisher "goes over" it in terms of power, but I'm not usually looking for "game turn aroundingness" in this spot. The fact that basically only one deck wants this card makes it all the better, so I don't need to run much (any) redundancy in this spot.

Sphinx of the Final Word is fine too with as its almost the same card with slightly changed matchup strengths.

 

[psly4mne]

I'd include Scuttling Doom Engine out of those (in fact it is the one out of those four that I do include). Finishers that go in any deck are more interesting, and fun with Welder is fun. We like death triggers here too.

 

[Kirblinx]

I wouldn't add Scuttling Doom Engine expecting it to be a big blue control finisher. It is generic enough that it gets picked up by everyone else. I love the card and use him myself (I call him Señor Scuttles), but I'm sorry he just isn't the droid you are looking for (although after writing all of this I re-read your post and noticed you said he could go in other decks -_-). You need something big and evasive to get the job done.

I am currently using Sharding Sphinx to get the job done as it fits into the tinker plan as well. I would be happy with either Sphinx of the Final Word or Sphinx of Jwar Isle as they are what control are looking for. Quick clock, evasive and hard to kill.