General Fight Club

[Aston]

I don't think the circumstance where you play your four drop on turn 4 and it's immediately answered for less mana and your opponent can make use of the additional mana they saved comes up all that often. On the assumption that you're playing the Ogre in a deck that's pressuring your opponent and forcing them to make some action beforehand, they often won't have mana open to answer it on your turn, and then if they're removing it on their own turn they're only going to have 2-3 mana available for another spell anyway. So to lose out on the exchange your opponent has to have a 1-2 mana removal spell (which is not a guarantee) and have another 2-3 mana spell they want to cast that turn and deal or have dealt with creatures you presumably played turns 1-3. I'm not saying it never happens, but I don't think a four drop getting Doom Bladed or Swords is as huge a blowout as is being made out.

What if instead of Ogre Battledriver you consider Hero of Bladehold. They're the same mana cost and have the same necessity of untapping, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Hero is underpowered.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

If we're going to switch to real world play results, that was perfectly illustrated as well by Laz's anecdote, which mirrors my own. The creature itself comes at a below average rate, and it just kind of sits there waiting to make your future creature draws better. I'm being a little generous describing it as an "untap I win" card, because it doesn't have an attack trigger, or buff of its own--it isn't an actual mini-overrun--and you can find yourself passing turns waiting until you find something.

That was the main problem we had with it. Even if it showed up in a spot where it wasn't vulnerable to bad mana trades, it still wasn't a guarantee it would do anything in a timely manner. Its a badly costed creature, sacrificing its own board impact to make future creature castings better. Running a card that has, as a basic design presupposition, that the game is going to go longer, in decks that don't really want the game to go longer than necessary, is really awkward.

Where I would run it would be the new penny cube, or another low power format. The midrange decks there could really have some fun with it, its more inline with what you're getting at 4 mana, and its premised on the idea of games being longer/more grindy across the board, giving the trigger more time to shine.

What if instead of Ogre Battledriver you consider Hero of Bladehold. They're the same mana cost and have the same necessity of untapping, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Hero is underpowered.

I feel at 6 mana, things are pretty clear cut, at 5 mana more murky, but still leaning heavily towards these brick creatures needing some help from format structure or cut them. Its a terrible thing to provide players with sweet cards like gitrog monster, and than having them be punished for running out something awesome you gave them incentive to play.

At 4 mana the analysis is a lot closer. Another card I would throw out on the topic would be polukranos.

Even though that creature is a brick creature, it has above average stats, and its in a color where its likely to have some ramp supporting it. If you're ahead on mana anyways, it makes having something like that blown up less of an issue. In return, you get a powerful untap effect, and a mana sink, that those ramp decks want. That might be worth it.

I don't think powered or underpowered is really the metric. Just these are brick creatures, they have these vulnerabilities, and take that into account when deciding their inclusion or exclusion, based on the broader background of the format.

 

[Chris Taylor]

It's the Steven Moffat of creatures

 

[Wumpa]

Have you actually run Ogre though? I'm simply suggesting it might play better than it reads since two people who have played with it posted positive responses for it. And there are a couple max power people who ran it for awhile and had good things to say about it after running it. My guess is it's not in any lists because red 4's are so stacked (talking max power crowd).

Some cards can't easily be theory crafted. Let me give you a good example which I wrote extensively about on MTGS (and may have mentioned here). Borborygmos Enraged. 8 mana creature that fails the terminate test pretty badly and looks tame compared to many other cards at this cost. But in fast reanimator/sneak attack decks the card consistently over performs in practice. Primarily because the attack trigger almost always flips lands. And both types of decks generally have lands in hand when it comes down because they don't need many in play (but you still have to run 16 in your deck). End of the day, you nearly always have cards for the bolt effect immediately and sometimes enough to one shot someone. It's surprisingly good in these decks to the point where I reach for it more often than other cards now. It's almost too good for my combo list, that's how strong it's performing. It's a case where applying conventional thinking about a card can just fail to properly take into account the context of how it ends up played.

I understand the argument against Ogre. You pay 4 and get nothing until next turn (and the investment is only worth it if you can truly exploit it). It's a risk and it's hard to maximize because it costs a lot. There are ways to get there though. One thing I've been experimenting a lot with lately are single use mana burst effects (not sure what to call them - ritual effects I guess). Lake of the Dead is a really powerful card and is what started me down this path. If you have the card draw (say with Necro), you can just sacrifice lands left and right and be working with 5 mana from T2 forward. Super risky of course (folds to Wasteland, but toss in a Dark Ritual and you empty your entire hand by T3. There are cards in other colors that do this too. Orcish Lumberjack does the same sort of thing. T2 Ogre. T3 seething song, , spell, dude, empty the warrens is about the fastest lethal swing outside a powered cube. This is all interesting to me because it's creating overlap with storm/turboland strategies. YMMV. I get that your lists are operating on a very different design.

I was very curious about what kind of environment you had that would want the battledriver and I dig it in your list. Playing it in a gruul beats list to enable stat monsters like Kodama of the North Tree and Sylvos, Rogue Elemental to hit like a truck sounds like a great time, not to mention curving into tasty token makers like Deranged Hermit which I don't see residing in too many Riptide lists. I almost feel like it's a shame that you don't have some of the more swingy cards people avoid like Berserk and Temur Battle Rage because that's the kind of combo in your combo cube I'm excited to play, especially since I've been eschewing such cards in my pursuit of balance and interaction (which I assume is a lower priority in a cube that identifies as a combo cube?).

I'm curious as to why you chose Anger and Ogre Battledriver over other Fires of Yavimaya esque cards. Hammer of Purphoros, Lightning Greaves, and Sarkhan Vol among others fill this role well and yet I don't see any of these cards in your list. They certainty don't feel as good as efficiently binning your Anger or blowing out your opponent via the battledriver, but a critical mass for a 'Fires' archetype would make them anchor cards and ultimately more playable if you are set on making these cards shine. Speaking of critical mass, get with the times and upgrade that Glorious Anthem to an Angel of Invention!

I find a more interesting card to compare Ogre Battledriver to is a recent star in my cube, Olivia, Mobilized for War. Olivia has a higher floor (as a vanilla 3/3 flyer for 3) but a lower ceiling and a more restrictive casting cost. Both only really shine after untapping and following up with a creature, however I feel like she fills her niche much better than the battledriver could because aggro decks want 3/3 flyers much more than a vanilla 3/3 (casting cost reduction aside). Aggro decks in my cube typically top off at 4cmc with the only innately hasty option being Hero of Oxid Ridge. By contrast, my red 5 drops all have haste! Most importantly, when I pick up the battledriver I want to warp my curve to live the dream of curving into spicy 5 and 6 drops (a problem if I decide to pull an audible from a low to the ground R(x) deck), whereas Olivia fits naturally into the recursive creature/madness flavor built into my Rakdos aggro archetype. I definitely wouldn't recommend her for your current list considering your lack of black aggro, I just found a lot of the arguments regarding the battledriver applied to Ms. Mobilized as well and had me juxtaposing the value of the two within the context of my own cube.

 

[ahadabans]

Thanks Wumpa. My current list is of a very offbeat design. It's combo yes, but with a heavy slant towards older cards. No walkers (always a design constraint with my cubes - so Sarkhan is out). Where possible I'm trying to avoid newer cards (so choices like Glorious Anthem over Spear of Heliod or Angel of Invention is intentional - though angel I have considered in addition too). Berserk is a card I've considered in the past, but it might be too swingy? Not sure how many effects like that I want. It was also previously unaffordable so dropped off my radar truth be told. Maybe it's time to reconsider though? Fires/Hammer I've played with before and I think the effect is sweet but paying 3 for it is a steep cost and I didn't like either in the end. Anger is interesting since it can be discarded to survival of the fittest/fuana shaman for G to get a dude that immediately benefits (or setup a later turn super play). Plus there's entomb/buried alive route and support in red and obviously in blue. Rakdos I'm gearing more midrangy with a light sacrifice theme, so chose old Olivia vs new.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Its also worth noting that he has less interaction in that list--in particular the hyper-efficient blue bounce effects, so you're less likely to be punished for running out a battledriver. Sometimes in those removal light formats, just having a body--however awkward--can be really good for that reason.

I'm a little curious if the lack of efficient blue bounce is a result of the the preference for old frames? The game has gotten a lot more time oriented since 2007, and before that the only cards that really jump out to me are unsummon and man-o'-war.

It makes sense that you wouldn't be excited about having that type of effect, as tempo decks are the natural predator of combo decks.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm a little curious if the lack of efficient blue bounce is a result of the the preference for old frames? The game has gotten a lot more time oriented since 2007, and before that the only cards that really jump out to me are unsummon and man-o'-war.

It makes sense that you wouldn't be excited about having that type of effect, as tempo decks are the natural predator of combo decks.

Yup. I'm intentionally limiting this effect. No Reflector Mage (despite how great it would be in the primary UW archetypes). Man-o'-war gets a pass for being old frame and less oppressive. I had considered vapor snag, snap, capsize but cut all of them. Tempo has to win another way (counters or something like Opposition).

Blink in particular is utterly gutted in this list. No Crystal Shard or even Erratic Portal. You can bounce you own creatures a handful of ways (through card DA or via tempo loss) or you can jump through a pretty difficult hoop and build an astral slide engine. Removal in the list is high power mostly, but there isn't a massive amount of it. My midrange list ran a lot more I think but was lower power in what it ran. I expected things to be answered there. This list is less interactive and catered more towards just racing each other or answering select things to setup some sort of alpha play. It's about doing broken things.

Cards like Ogre are high risk plays especially off a ritual type effect. But that's only one way to play it. Part of what makes a combo list cool is you don't have to over engineer some of the interactions. Just put a bunch of high ceiling cards together and see what brews. Obviously harder to balance but this is more thought experiment than a list that will get a lot of use and be exposed as bad.

 

[Mondschwein]

vs

I love Arbor Elf, especially for multicoloured decks where it can untap shocklands, but what about the Satyr? it's able to untap bouncelands and utility stuff which definitely is an appreciable upgrade, and it has a 2 on its ass. The downside is that people are not able playing 3drops on t2, but I don't think that this jump from 1 to 3 is necessary. What do you think?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Depends on the speed of your format I would say. If you've got a slower format, maybe accelerating from 2 to 4 is more important/desirable than accelerating from 1 2 3?

 

[Aston]

Voyaging Satyr is also sweet with utility lands. Untapping Gaea's Cradle or Nykthos is a big game.

 

[Mondschwein]

That's the swingyness I do not want to have in my cube.

vs

 

[Modin]

Airdrop Aeronauts or neither, your other green 5 drops outclass the Scavenger by a rather big margin. Looking over your 3 damage removal there isn't actually too much that kills the Aeronauts that wouldn't kill a x/4. (I counted 3 Lightning Strike/Volcanic Hammer variants and Vengeful Rebel but not much except that)

 

[inscho]

vs

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I love Torrent, but it has to be Grave Upheaval for me. It has added utility as an early game mana fixer, and it targets any graveyard.

 

[Velrun]

I am not sure how I like land-fixing in non-green colors.

I guess it depends on your design philosophies.

 

[inscho]

Oh, I missed that grave upheaval targets any yard! Well that makes that a no-brainer.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I am not sure how I like land-fixing in non-green colors.

I guess it depends on your design philosophies.

I think land-fixing shouldn't necessarily be a green thing. Basically you make one color in your cube have less color screws than the others. Focusing on color fixing as a green theme is like choosing to run only green fetches and shocks. The goal of having a cube, to me at least, is to be able to offer friends (and yourself) a fun night of Magic. I think we can all agree that Magic is more fun when you get to play an actual game of Magic, rather than succumb to a mana screw or flood, and the basic landcyclers help you get "there"

 

[shamizy]

Yeah, for green it's more centered around mana acceleration being the boon, not explicit fixing. It's definitely easier to hit your splashes earlier with dorks like Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise, but I think that's fine and a good way to keep the color identity intact. It's a major reason for why I avoid rocks that can create colored mana earlier than T3, don't want other colors stepping on green's turf.

There's just nothing worse than being stuck on colors in a game of Magic. Yesterday during the prerelease for instance I went 1-3 with what looked to be a solid RW pool where I splashed two blue sources for The Locust God (in case I didn't aggro quickly enough), and for some reason I had a ton of issues hitting my colors correctly even with 8 Mountains and 7 Plains as the base. If I had managed to reach aWhite or Red source at the appropriate time in two separate games, not even being greedy I had dudes that were like 2R or 3W to play, I would have been able to curve out and completely take control and win those games (and those rounds). Of all the things that should be heavily regulated and tweaked in a given environment, I think adequate fixing should be quite low on that list.

A bevy of riches and fixing isn't great and promotes greedy splashes with no regulation (which you should definitely take into account), but it's not quite as detrimental as skimping would be where players may not even get to play real games of Magic. It's part of why I've found double fetch with single shocks to be so solid. BFZ Lands were an amazing addition for what I wanted to promote; mostly 2 color builds with 3rd color splashes, 4C if you heavily prioritize the fixing. Now if only WOTC would complete cycles on time

 

[Velrun]

I think land-fixing shouldn't necessarily be a green thing. Basically you make one color in your cube have less color screws than the others. Focusing on color fixing as a green theme is like choosing to run only green fetches and shocks. The goal of having a cube, to me at least, is to be able to offer friends (and yourself) a fun night of Magic. I think we can all agree that Magic is more fun when you get to play an actual game of Magic, rather than succumb to a mana screw or flood, and the basic landcyclers help you get "there"

Case and point

... I guess it depends on your design philosophies.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

It really doesn't though, to be honest. We can rank design objectives out hierarchically, and lowering negative variance transcends pretty much everything else.

I know this isn't going to be a constructive back and forth, but for any lurkers reading this, please don't cut negative variance reducing land cyclers on the basis only green should be color fixing--your non-green playing drafters will be deeply indebted to you.

 

[Velrun]

I do not agree. Even though it looks like many people do.

Each color has its strengths and weaknesses.

Wizards usually do not include color-fixing in non-green colors in sets unless:
1. It is a multicolor block.
2. It is on a rare cycle

To me it feels wrong to have land fixing on non-green spells. Sort of the same way it feels wrong to include cards with partner in a cube where there's no EDH general or to include legendaries that can be your commander

It might just be me but I believe the point of a forum is to learn and find a mutual understanding and even to sometimes disagree.

 

[ahadabans]

Wizards does lots of stupid shit though, so using what they do as a guide for how we should be designing cube seems like a bad idea to me. Anything that reduces the number of non-games of Magic is good. In pretty much every meta imaginable. Eternal Dragon infringing on green's wheelhouse feels like a super loose argument to me.

Honestly, if all green has to offer is fixing, we probably should start by talking about how to fix that (or go further and talk about cutting it entirely from cube because it's just taking up space if that's all your green section is good for).

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I have no problems at all with basic landcycling, as it mimics a perfectly fine limited card that isn't even in most of our cubes because it's too low power level as an effect on its own.

Anyway, it's your choice of course, just know that your current design philosophy means that the non-green drafters in your cube will be color screwed more often than green drafters. To me it seems weird to stick to a design philosophy that is both more restrictive than WotC's own design philosophy (in this regard) and results in more unenjoyable games (even though that number might be quite small due to other factors like a good mana base). Like I said though, it's your prerogative.

It might just be me but I believe the point of a forum is to learn and find a mutual understanding and even to sometimes disagree.

And is that not exactly what we've been doing? Obviously we haven't swayed each other's opinion yet. Seeing that your unwillingness to run basic landcyclers in nongreen colors seems to be entirely based on the argument that "it doesn't feel right", whereas I've actually tried them in my cube (even designing customs for and ) and can confirm that my argument is based on "it plays right", I don't think I'll be easily swayed to your opinion, but you're certainly welcome to try

 

[ahadabans]

I understand the argument for respecting the color pie. If all colors can do all things, color becomes meaningless. But the truth is, each color is going to have strengths and weaknesses no matter how abusive you are with the color pie. Run every viable green removal spell that has ever been printed and green will continue to suck balls at removing creatures. Give white mana tithe and it's still doing an anemic impression of blue counter magic. Psionic Blast? Sure. Run it. Mono blue burn is not suddenly going to be a thing.

There are a lot of ways to do this of course, but I think looking at the archetypes you are pushing can help you determine if a color pie break is warranted. Maybe your Ux decks are tempo and they need something like Psionic Blast (Simic is where this tends to be good)? Or maybe it's not useful since every tempo color splash in your meta is a color better at removal/reach (UR, UW, UB)? If Simic tempo needs help and it's a key archetype, psionic blast might be the answer, color pie be damned.

As far as cycling goes, it's one of the best mechanics in the game for smoothing draws and combating negative variance. I would not shy away from running a cycling card if it supported an archetype I wanted, regardless of how much I felt it infringed on the color pie. This mechanic is just made of pure win, and the more of it you have the better your cube will likely play. There are a handful of mechanics like that which almost get consideration in my cube lists based solely on a single keyword. Cycling, Scry and Flashback to name the three main ones for me.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Dumping something as essential as fixing tools in green only seems as misguided as making blue the "card draw color". It's based off a supposed understanding of the game's flavor that works feverishly in opposition to developing a healthy format that has lots of depth to explore and which is fun for Johnny-type and Timmy-type players (a Spike will always dominate a simple format, as the route to success is much clearer and they're most apt to pursue it, no matter how tedious or repetitive it is). It's these design mistakes that result in formats that aren't very complex and have a simple metagame structure. And again: Traveler's Amulet, et al.