GBS

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
That seems to be a big part of why a lot of the most skilled players prefer Limited. It's a lot harder to 'solve' a matchup where the decks are singleton (or close to it); and even if you come close, the matchup never really repeats itself.

I don't actually think it's about this at all. Limited games play themselves more than any other format. Sure, there's variability in the form of ever changing decks, but I don't think this actually creates depth of gameplay. Depth of deckbuilding, sure.

I think if anything depth increases with known quantities that can be played around / interacted with, e.g. "I know my opponent plays Stifle and Wasteland, how does that affect my land sequencing? What risks am I willing to take?" or "My opponent has left X mana open, what is he representing?" "Opponent played Hallowed Fountain untapped T1 on the draw and passed the turn. Is he holding Spell Snare? Can I afford to play around it? What are the costs of taking another line?"

The fact that decks are shuffled already mixes things up. The best Magic matchups have loads of replayability. A skill-intensive matchup where you could jam matches for hours and still be having fun. You can't do that in a lot of Magic, and I certainly wouldn't want to do that with most limited decks.

I can play Protoss vs. Zerg for days on end. I can do the same with Marth vs. Falco, Black versus White in chess, Red versus Blue on a fixed map in Halo.

Imagine Magic's churn of new cards stopped. How long would you want to play Standard with a fixed card pool? I think picking the best deck for a format is super skill intensive (be it draft or constructed), but often piloting that correctly doesn't have a lot of depth to it.

How often do you watch a Magic game and walk away feeling amazed at the play? Did the player inspire you, or just not make any mistakes? How often do you watch a player win a game and think "there's no way I could have won that"? I get that feeling a LOT when watching masters play Legacy. Less in Modern, and almost never in Standard.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
so uh am i mistaken or http://www.dota2.com/international/home/overview/ is this game free to play
and awarding 10x the prizes at a single pro tour
and in the symphony hall and not a dingy showbox with 5 spectators total
yeah theres no doubt that most of mtg's cultural problem comes from a lack of money in the game (though i guess you could convince me otherwise), i guess my main question is: why has nobody pointed this out yet?
former wizards employees or what have you
since presumably if this is being held in this state, with its asinine gambling laws equating online poker with child pornography (a reason i refuse to play in the indian casinos), then hasbro can sack up ugh i dont understand anything anyway keep me from going crazy right here


If you think that prize support is the cause of cultural problems then I think you're pretty badly mistaken. LOL and DOTA get tons of support and are known to be two of the most vile gaming communities out there. If anything, it works the other way. The best communities I have known (Netrunner, Smash) have been grass roots and were in it more for the love of the game than for the prize pool.

If they pumped lots of money into the PT, would that make the asshat at your FNM any more bearable? The jerk on Twitter any nicer?
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Do those problems occur at the highest levels of competition though? In Magic at least, you find the most jerks among very casual players or mid-level PTQ regulars; the game's best are generally a good crowd, from what I can tell. LoL has problems because any asshole with an internet connection can hop in a game behind a veil of anonymity.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I talked with Eric about this once. Every game seems to be nicer at the top levels. Halo has a notoriously bad community, but its very best players were genuinely nice and intelligent people. It's always the ones who think they should be the best but arent who cause problems. Your PTQ grinders, so to speak. Not to say that jerks can't make it to the very top, but I would guess that the reason they can't quite make it to the top and the fact that they are jerks with bad attitudes are connected somehow.

More specifically, becoming the best requires a self-awareness and honesty towards yourself in order to reach those high levels. Being a jerk often involved blaming problems on external factors rather than focusing on improving what you can control.
 

CML

Contributor
But I do think the asshats at FNM or on Twitter would be better (or at least more tolerable and avoidable), because more people would be "at the top levels."

Poker is a great example of this. It's inordinately popular and has probably the hugest amount of idiots in any gaming community. But the further up you get, the happier people are. (Broadly speaking) they are happy because the game lets them not only conceptualize life, but deal with it; because there's a concrete connection between effort and reward; because there's a lot of other like-minded people; because the fish are present but seem less threatening when one can make a good living off of them. When I played I noticed I got angrier when there was less at stake, when I was just starting out, but once I'd "made it" a little I felt far less anger when I'd lose a comparably vaster sum in a day.

So there was a negative correlation between how much one cared and what was at stake. Anyone who's grappled with Freud or academia or third-world nations or theology should be familiar with this idea (under the guise of "narcissism of minor differences" or "the fighting is so fierce because the stakes are so low" etc.)

Put another way, playing poker professionally could be construed as a sane choice. Planning the same in Magic is utter madness, and if you're not mad already, then actually trying it will make you so. And thus because of Hasbro the very character flaws and biases that playing Magic challenges are the same ones that are encouraged by the culture of the game. The ludicrous reaction to criticism of the "community pillars" is evidence enough of this; they're supposed to maintain this narrative of meritocracy and hard work and so on, but it's perfectly obvious it's a giant popularity contest, the only way to make a living at this game is to win said popularity contest while pretending it's a meritocracy, and that if they ever admitted it then the community would realize how interchangeable they were and get rid of them. Can you imagine Mike Flores being anything other than a laughingstock in a healthy and diverse community?

Why aren't there libertarians in poker? Because there's actual money it.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
But I do think the asshats at FNM or on Twitter would be better (or at least more tolerable and avoidable), because more people would be "at the top levels."

Poker is a great example of this. It's inordinately popular and has probably the hugest amount of idiots in any gaming community. But the further up you get, the happier people are. (Broadly speaking) they are happy because the game lets them not only conceptualize life, but deal with it; because there's a concrete connection between effort and reward; because there's a lot of other like-minded people; because the fish are present but seem less threatening when one can make a good living off of them. When I played I noticed I got angrier when there was less at stake, when I was just starting out, but once I'd "made it" a little I felt far less anger when I'd lose a comparably vaster sum in a day.

So there was a negative correlation between how much one cared and what was at stake.

I still think you have it completely backwards.

Poker was a big thing when I was in university, and naturally I paid my bills by multi-tabling sit-n-gos on PartyPoker and tracking profits / hour in an Excel sheet.

Meanwhile, my roommate played a lot of low level poker. He complained at the end of every session about how dumb other players were, how he'd gotten unlucky, how other people were too stupid and "random" for him to win. He had bought in that month for $50, and one day he wasn't playing anymore. A friend (also a poker regular) came over and asked "How's the poker going?"
"Oh, alright, I had some bad luck then cashed out $30."

"But the minimum cash-out is $50 on that site"

See, he never got to the higher stakes because he didn't have the skill and emotional maturity for it. There are thousands of players like him. The fish. The bottom feeders. You don't succeed in poker if you are going on tilt all the time. You win by realizing it's a grind, that you put hours in and dollars come out. That one session you make $200 and the next you lose $150, and this happens over and over.
 

CML

Contributor
What do you mean by "backwards"? AFAIK we're agreeing with each other. Of course I'm familiar with the stock character of your roommate and the "grind" (used with more than a dash of irony in poker, not in MTG!) -- 12/180s were my living for a few months in 2010. What I'm saying is these many of these very same bottom-feeders, who can't make it in poker (at least not since 2003), run the show in MTG. In many real ways, everyone is a bottom-feeder in MTG. (What's the difference between MTG and gambling? In gambling you can win money)
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I can quite easily imagine Mike Flores being a 'respected' figure in other subcultures, and he is a laughing stock in Magic among people who aren't his friends. Phil Hellmuth and Daniel Negreanu are somehow poker icons, after all.
 

CML

Contributor
Phil Hellmuth and Daniel Negreanu are still extremely good. They've adapted at the pace of the game and remained on top.

Most of the other icons from that era are nobodies now, justly so, and Flores is more comparable to them. Of course there are still a few who hang around but y'know
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
What do you mean by "backwards"? AFAIK we're agreeing with each other. Of course I'm familiar with the stock character of your roommate and the "grind" (used with more than a dash of irony in poker, not in MTG!) -- 12/180s were my living for a few months in 2010. What I'm saying is these many of these very same bottom-feeders, who can't make it in poker (at least not since 2003), run the show in MTG. In many real ways, everyone is a bottom-feeder in MTG. (What's the difference between MTG and gambling? In gambling you can win money)

It's a causality issue. You were saying (or so I thought, maybe I misread) that the higher stakes caused you to be less angry. I was saying it's the other way around. Not getting angry leads you to higher stakes.

Either way, if we think of the "PTQ syndrome" as the population that is just below the profitability line, that population will exist regardless of how much money there is.

I like that Poker is a merit-based pyramid scheme.
 
I'm still kinda confused m8s. Haven't there been like really intense, if not a little tedious and frustrating decks in the standard metagame. I know incrimental damage and advantage uwr matchups looks like serious headaches that fit people who can see far into the future and play adaptably and the aristocrats deck seems like it has room for so many edgy metagame decisions and playing it seems both deep and subtle.

RGWB rites decks seem like such a hoot too.

Also I was talking to the Chan-Man about gourmet hot dogs and I'm gonna try to get a couple in here. Elk sausage baby! And something called frips! I think the one in the foreground was duck with pear and caramelized onion. I couldn't believe these things were like 3 bucks after Toronto prices.

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Woah that was way bigger than imagined!
 

CML

Contributor
jason -- i agree on principle, but as a practical matter, is wizards really going to tell people to be less angry, or throw more money into the game? (spoilers: neither) -- anyway i'd argue it works both ways, all the scratching and clawing and rules-lawyering and community backbiting that occurs during magic is because it's all small-time and the meritocracy is not a meritocracy.

with more money in the game, angry people will exist, but at least there will be the possibility of not being angry, since what else are you going to do when you devoted your life to competitive mtg and then realized uh oh it's not a job and there isn't a great reason why.

i think we have here a TANGLED HIERARCHY
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
This is a really dumb request, but does anybody have 7 MODO tickets I can borrow for like, three days? I am taking the next couple of days off and my Paypal refill is being really slow.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Hmm... that can work. Is it possible to do it in the next hour? A daily is starting I was hoping to enter. MODO ID: Kers
 
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