Card/Deck Green 5-drops

[ahadabans]

Grave Titan is head and shoulders above the rest. Sun Titan is sweet but some might find he provides too much value. The other three are fine. I only run Inferno Titan, and that's a blast to play with.

I feel like Inferno does too much honestly. It's a 6/6 dude for 6 plus you get a free DIVIDABLE bolt every turn, including the turn you play him. That's pretty busted honestly.

He's never been in my cube formally, but I've tested him a few times and he took over games in ways I was unhappy with for 6 mana. But admittedly this was small scale testing.

 

[Eric Chan]

I have it

Grave Titan
Inferno Titan
Primeval Titan
Frost Titan
Sun Titan

My experience mirrors ahadabans's - ramping into Inferno Titan was pretty bonkers over here.

Meanwhile, Sun Titan was in my list for almost three years, and never did anything too obnoxious, often just returning a fetchland to play. He was the closest thing to a "fair" titan.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I have it

Grave Titan
Inferno Titan
Primeval Titan
Frost Titan
Sun Titan

My experience mirrors ahadabans's - ramping into Inferno Titan was pretty bonkers over here.

Meanwhile, Sun Titan was in my list for almost three years, and never did anything too obnoxious, often just returning a fetchland to play. He was the closest thing to a "fair" titan.

Hmm, I think this is pretty close, but I might swap Frost and Sun.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Primeval Titan and Sun Titan are both sweet without being dominant.

 

[ahadabans]

In a slower environment (read: mine), I feel like Sun Titan will be too powerful. It essentially functions as an upgraded Genesis that has no upkeep cost and can pull anything out the graveyard instead of just creatures (oh, and it smashes face while doing it and can block simultaneously). It's a midrange deck's wet dream, and I really don't want to enable those decks anymore than they are already enabled.

Admittedly, this is purely based on my review of the card and is not from any testing or actual play experience. So I could be completely off base with it. That thing looks broken to me though.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I dunno, Sun Titan usually isn't wrecking the game by pulling things out of the graveyard. Unless you've built for that. Getting back a Liliana or that artifact murderbomb is pretty fun.

 

[Eric Chan]

It's one of those cards that's better in constructed, when you can build your entire deck around it. In this case, packing lots of cheap permanents that make their way to the yard regularly. In cube, Sun Titan's consistency can be a little suspect, though occasionally you still pull off some head-turning shenanigans.

It reminds me of the cascade mechanic, in that it's strong in constructed vs. hit and miss in cube.

 

[ahadabans]

That makes sense. Thanks Eric/Jason.

I can see it having a high variance for sure (sometimes that trigger would do nothing). But in my mind, I can also see some GBW deck that wants to run pod/Genesis (packing the GY with stuff) loving this card. Not sure how you guys tend to use Genesis, but in my group it's more about resuing utility dudes (3CC and less ETB guys), which is exactly what Sun Titan would do (but even more broken since it isn't limited to ETB dudes but literally any card 3CC or less). Maybe that deck just wouldn't come together the way I think it could though, but I don't know. Seems like a durdler's fantasy to me and I have enough problems with guys building durdle.dec.

 

[Eric Chan]

Make your cube faster. That'll reduce the win rate of the four-colour no-synergy good stuff deck, and keep the shenanigans decks honest by putting them on an actual clock.

 

[GenericZero]

I don't understand the huge love for wolfir silverheart/huge hate for kalonian hydra. I ran silverheart in standard and in cube. Had him in there up until like 3 months ago. Replaced him with kalonian hydra. Not as gamebreaking as you'd think. Wolfir Silverheart is a great card, don't get me wrong. Has synergy with plenty of things. I found his instant pump frustrating more often than I liked. He gets old quick and closes out games just as fast as the hydra. Sure, he has no trample and can be inconsistent, but when he is on he is ON. I actually like the hydra because what it does isn't instant and it takes two turns before it's ending the game. Plus it has the obvious synergy with 1/1 counters. Almost anything that kills Silverheart kills the hydra and even some funny things like Vamp. Hexmage get to kill it sometimes. Not to mention it HAS TO attack to be good, so it isn't just an insta-double-super-wall for midrange decks like silverheart. So please explain why I should hate the hydra?

 

[Diakonov]

I think you guys are on the verge of convincing me to break my "no titan" rule and allow Primeval Titan in. I don't like the infinite CA built into the titans (which is why all of them are currently excluded), but this effect is distinctly green and may not be as overtly broken as grave or inferno so might be OK in my cube. Thoughts? Where do you guys rate Primeval Titan in power level to the other 4?

He's especially fun with landfall. It's strong but very reasonable as a 6-drop in my cube.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

So please explain why I should hate the hydra?

Hey, someone reacted to that part of the post! I love the hydra in EDH personally, but I think it's pretty much unbeatable in a 1 on 1 two-player game, unless you kill it right there and then. It kills in less turn than the Titans, but costs a mana less instead of more. The synergy with +1/+1 counters is moot, since it wins on its own in two turns anyway.

All in all I'ld say the card is too pushed for my tastes, and the fun interactions it would have had are rendered moot because of this.

 

[Eric Chan]

As with most green dorks, Wolfir Silverheart and his best bud can just be chump blocked forever, whereas it's a tad harder to do that facing down Kalonian Hydra. I've seen board states where an opponent at a low life total crafted a position that, while being unable to kill Silverheart, generated enough chump blockers to hold off the big green bozos for long enough that his evasive task force was able to punch through and finish the job.

But I agree they both fall under the "big dumb vanilla green monsters" category, and I can see not liking one or the other, or even neither. At one point I considered banning Silverheart because it was ending games out of nowhere too often for my liking.

 

[anotak]

i hate kalonian hydra

 

[MCMcEmcee]

Silverheart has some play to it (requires other creatures, can be chumped, pseudo-haste against sorcery speed removal) whereas Hydra is pretty much just a removal check. It's less a case of "omg this is too good" so much as it just not being interesting on either side of the table.

 

[CML]

Hmm, I think this is pretty close, but I might swap Frost and Sun.

Sun Titan is better than Prime Time in Cube most of the time, I think. Looking at the context in which they see constructed play, this makes sense. Finding something to fish out 3 or less is easier than setting up a big Prime Time turn, it's either a guy that finds a couple lands or complete overkill. None of us even have Inkmoth Nexus or Valakut in funsies lands, do we?

Grave
Inferno
Sun
Primeval
Frost

I like Frost because he shits on the other Titans head-to-head. This was relevant in 2011 Standard and is extremely funny when it happens in Cube.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I think I would have agreed in the pre Utility Land Draft days. Now I value Prime Time much higher.

 

[ahadabans]

Sun Titan is better than Prime Time in Cube most of the time, I think. Looking at the context in which they see constructed play, this makes sense. Finding something to fish out 3 or less is easier than setting up a big Prime Time turn, it's either a guy that finds a couple lands or complete overkill. None of us even have Inkmoth Nexus or Valakut in funsies lands, do we?

Grave
Inferno
Sun
Primeval
Frost

I like Frost because he shits on the other Titans head-to-head. This was relevant in 2011 Standard and is extremely funny when it happens in Cube.

From a theorycraft perspective, I agree with this 100%. But again, I have not played these much outside some testing I've done with Inferno.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I had the perfect deck for Doubling Season tonight and boarded it out every time. As much as it pains me, I am going to cut it in my next update. Wolfir Silverheart was a house however, the game I followed it up with a Phyrexian Metamorph did not last long I think I'm going to try out Boon Satyr in place of Doubling Season.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

In a slower environment (read: mine), I feel like Sun Titan will be too powerful. It essentially functions as an upgraded Genesis that has no upkeep cost and can pull anything out the graveyard instead of just creatures (oh, and it smashes face while doing it and can block simultaneously). It's a midrange deck's wet dream, and I really don't want to enable those decks anymore than they are already enabled.

I've not really found it to be too bad. Like everyone else has pointed out, you really have to build your deck around it. It tends to show up mostly in aggresive W/R boros decks at the top of their curve, and provides some much needed resilency for that strategy once they enter the late game. It can be pretty crazy with cards like animate dead or silverblade paladin, but thats been more the exception than the norm.

I think genesis might be inheriently more durdly/midrange since it can return any creature, it returns to the hand rather than to play, and it dosen't attack. If you are paying 3 mana on your upkeep to raise dead a creature, I would imagine you are only wanting to do that if, 1) you are not under a lot of pressure, and 2) you are replaying something that makes up for the tempo loss (acidic slime, thragtusk ect.), all of which leads to slowed down games.

 

[GenericZero]

As with most green dorks, Wolfir Silverheart and his best bud can just be chump blocked forever, whereas it's a tad harder to do that facing down Kalonian Hydra. I've seen board states where an opponent at a low life total crafted a position that, while being unable to kill Silverheart, generated enough chump blockers to hold off the big green bozos for long enough that his evasive task force was able to punch through and finish the job.

But I agree they both fall under the "big dumb vanilla green monsters" category, and I can see not liking one or the other, or even neither. At one point I considered banning Silverheart because it was ending games out of nowhere too often for my liking.

Yea, I'm not a fan of grindy games won through token generating and chump blocking. It's aggravating having a big fat green monster that can't punch through and stressful to be the chumpmaster who's praying for a topdeck. The hydra doesn't seem too unfair in the right environment. I like it. In fact, as a one-of it seems fine with any 1/1 counter theme. Plus, it isn't a fucking furry.

 

[ahadabans]

I've not really found it to be too bad. Like everyone else has pointed out, you really have to build your deck around it. It tends to show up mostly in aggresive W/R boros decks at the top of their curve, and provides some much needed resilency for that strategy once they enter the late game. It can be pretty crazy with cards like animate dead or silverblade paladin, but thats been more the exception than the norm.

I think genesis might be inheriently more durdly/midrange since it can return any creature, it returns to the hand rather than to play, and it dosen't attack. If you are paying 3 mana on your upkeep to raise dead a creature, I would imagine you are only wanting to do that if, 1) you are not under a lot of pressure, and 2) you are replaying something that makes up for the tempo loss (acidic slime, thragtusk ect.), all of which leads to slowed down games.

Fair enough. I think I'm going to try out Primeval based on feedback here. But I don't feel like I need to run Sun Titan even if it might not end up OP. White has plenty of 6 drop options. Green however really doesn't.

As far as Genesis, I almost always run it in a GB shell. And the best use was for getting dudes back like bone shredder, shriek maw, viridian shaman, etc. Those guys in particular because you can pay 3 to get them and cast them the same turn and they generally 2 for 1 (or kill something that needs to be killed) so justify spending the 5-6 mana. Expensive dudes like acidic slime (unless you are rocking a crap ton of mana) requires two turns and you don't always have that much time. Continually machine gunning shriek maw each turn for 5 is pretty bonkers late in the game. It sounds like a lot, but in green 5 mana is like 4 mana most of the time due to mana dudes and if the game goes long, it stops mattering how much stuff costs. You gain the virtual card advantage at that point as hands dwindle and it starts to become about how much you can do versus how much things cost.

 

[GenericZero]

Not 5-drop related, but has anyone besides myself considered/tried running this guy? Seems like a less powerful/more interesting Rampaging Balothes...

 

[Jason Waddell]

Not 5-drop related, but has anyone besides myself considered/tried running this guy? Seems like a less powerful/more interesting Rampaging Balothes...

It seems good potentially good. Both cards require something "extra" to get good value out of. Broodmaster has a natural line to putting 19 (!) power on the board on Turn 7, but requires a full untap and has no trample. Baloths can get you 14 the turn you play it, if you hold a fetchland. They seem pretty comparable and I wouldn't fault anyone for running one or the other.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm tempted because I have a thing for hydras, but not having trample hurts this for me. It costs 6, dies to terminate and nets you nothing, and although the monstrosity trigger is really good this is a chump block disaster waiting to happen.

I'd like to be proven wrong though because again hydras are awesome and I'm all about running more.