I pretty frequently see it open just because the players are more excited about the other strategies I am pushing in the cube. What can be done to entice more duders to the red beatdowns?
General How to make red aggro more fun
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Chris Taylor
Contributor
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I've never had a problem with this. People seem to love the intrinsic appeal of red based aggro. Perhaps its a novelty thing: red-based aggro is ever-present (other cubes, constructed, etc.) while your other angles are less-so. Maybe its not a matter of design, but just a matter of time: the newcarsmell will wear off and it'll fix itself.
If not, Rage Forger/Ion Storm or Purphoros (goes great with multi-crawlers)
If not, Rage Forger/Ion Storm or Purphoros (goes great with multi-crawlers)
I think red weenies tend to get chosen due to their efficiency and potentially have a bit less interest?
One thing I find is that unless you're predisposed to drafting red aggro there's only a few cards that pull you into the archetype - goblin guide, sulfuric vortex, shrine of burning rage, fireblast, koth?
Are you looking for more interesting things for them to do on the table? If it's just efficient monsters and burn to clear the way there isn't a lot else going on. Your solution will probably be to double/triple up on certain cards, as the other option is only to lower power which I don't think is going to suit your cube. For instance, I really like goblin diplomats but it gets pushed out by other more powerful cards.
I like what FSR and others are doing with heroic/pump/doublestrike/power matters. That seems like quite a fun approach. Also the more to more interesting reach options in goblin bombardment, ion storm, purphoros. Reckless abandon is a cool card that interacts with sac themes and gravecrawlers.
One thing I find is that unless you're predisposed to drafting red aggro there's only a few cards that pull you into the archetype - goblin guide, sulfuric vortex, shrine of burning rage, fireblast, koth?
Are you looking for more interesting things for them to do on the table? If it's just efficient monsters and burn to clear the way there isn't a lot else going on. Your solution will probably be to double/triple up on certain cards, as the other option is only to lower power which I don't think is going to suit your cube. For instance, I really like goblin diplomats but it gets pushed out by other more powerful cards.
I like what FSR and others are doing with heroic/pump/doublestrike/power matters. That seems like quite a fun approach. Also the more to more interesting reach options in goblin bombardment, ion storm, purphoros. Reckless abandon is a cool card that interacts with sac themes and gravecrawlers.
Unfortunately I think this is a WotC problem more than finding the right cards. You can be as cute as you want but at the end of the day you will still be turning guys sideways and/or throwing lightning around.
Genju of the Spires in an interesting one. There was also that card that let you sac a bunch of lands and put two X/X creatures into play for R. Can't remember what it was called.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I have one lying around and it seems like its a little too all in to possibly be good, but I've never actually manned up and tried it.
CML
Contributor
I would not go the Devastating Summons route, as to my mind the problem with RDW and other linear strategies is that there are too many cards that 'only' go in it. I'm not saying to cut Goblin Guide, cuz fuck that, but I am saying to not add "Spark Elemental" and use them slots on cards like (sorry if these are already in)
(good midrange guy + sideboard option vs. army-in-a-can dickheads, midrange beater or aggro curve topper, large 3-drop that prevents flood or Life from the Loam hero, etc.)
edit: hybrid
same edit: lands
(good midrange guy + sideboard option vs. army-in-a-can dickheads, midrange beater or aggro curve topper, large 3-drop that prevents flood or Life from the Loam hero, etc.)
edit: hybrid
same edit: lands
I try to push more of a token theme with red. So young pyromancer, empty the warrens, siege-gang commander, Purphoros, God of the Forge , Ogre Battledriver, goblin bombardment, stuff that can be sacked and comes back (like Chandra's Phoenix). I also have a small haste theme (reckless charge, hammer of Purphoros). Lot's of colors want in on all that too (green for the haste theme and black for the sacrifice/recurring threat theme).
I know this is more midrange than aggro, but that is sort of how my cube rolls. Traditional fast aggro is not something my group really enjoys, so it rarely gets drafted.
I also have some big red/combo elements too (totally not what you are after it doesn't sound like).
I know this is more midrange than aggro, but that is sort of how my cube rolls. Traditional fast aggro is not something my group really enjoys, so it rarely gets drafted.
I also have some big red/combo elements too (totally not what you are after it doesn't sound like).
Isn't that kind of Wizards' approach to the goblin tribe though? Every constructed Goblins deck I have ever seen is just a pile of shit cards that somehow work via critical mass.
Unfortunately. Which is why I've always felt it was a no-go in cube. Maybe if you draft the whole cube each time you could make it work. But my group never has 8 drafters. So this would hurt my drafts if I tried to shove a goblin theme in there.
The only thing maybe you could try and do is like a 3 for 1 deal or something. Draft goblin king and get two of his minions as part of the package. Sounds messy and hard to balance properly though. I'm open to ideas here. I'd love to get a playable goblin deck in cube that didn't punish you for trying to draft it (and missing key cards).
The utility land idea was pure genius, and it sounded equally stupid in the beginning. So who knows? Maybe there is something we can do here with Goblins?
The utility land idea was pure genius, and it sounded equally stupid in the beginning. So who knows? Maybe there is something we can do here with Goblins?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
The X for 1 picks are weird, because they create a lot of dead space for drafters in that they need less picks to fill a deck. Granted, its a bit hypocritical of me to say this as someone who drafts lands separately which creates a TON of additional dead space which hasn't turned out to be problematic, so maybe their is a place here.
Creature type errata is another possible angle.
What would we want a goblin deck to do in cube that isn't completely poisonous or completely concurrent with "red aggro"?
Creature type errata is another possible angle.
What would we want a goblin deck to do in cube that isn't completely poisonous or completely concurrent with "red aggro"?
Well, I don't know if you've seen the "Squadron Build-Arounds" thread, but there are some ideas being discussed there. I'm not really wild about the packages.
I think there's another issue at work here though. Sure, you can get goblins to "work" power level wise, but I feel like you'll just have a relatively narrow "goblin deck". And it's almost exclusively red. Unlike say, Zombies that have a lot of looks to them and span the 5-colors, even if black is their main home.
I think there's another issue at work here though. Sure, you can get goblins to "work" power level wise, but I feel like you'll just have a relatively narrow "goblin deck". And it's almost exclusively red. Unlike say, Zombies that have a lot of looks to them and span the 5-colors, even if black is their main home.
I want Goblins, in a theoretical world, to be relentless and blitzing. Two ideas:
1) playable Goblin Sledder types, boosted to a cube-appropriate power level.
2) playable tutor / card advantage? Maybe a Goblin that tutors up a dude on combat damage?
1) playable Goblin Sledder types, boosted to a cube-appropriate power level.
2) playable tutor / card advantage? Maybe a Goblin that tutors up a dude on combat damage?
There are pieces we can get in black too for goblins. Mad Auntie, Boggart Harbinger, Fodder Launch, Marsh Flitter, Weirding Shaman, Warren Weirding, wort, boggart auntie, spike jester.
My version of goblins is more about swarming and CA. As it has a token sub theme, I think some of it might work without having to be overly pushed.
My version of goblins is more about swarming and CA. As it has a token sub theme, I think some of it might work without having to be overly pushed.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
That was my problem with goblins in cube. You could make a good goblin deck, but it would always be "the goblin deck". All of the good goblin cards are only acceptable if you have a lot of goblins, so the whole thing was completely all or nothing. Ringleader, Recruiter, Lackey, Matron, etc, who wants these cards in anything other then a pile that contains 80% of the cube's goblins?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Terrible idea: squadron picks count as 1 card for the purpose of minimum deck size.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
so like... 4 squadron hawks in your deck = 36 card minimum?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
No, those 4 squadron hawks count as 1 card for deck construction, so if you play them all you still need 39 other cards.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
So 43 cards. Doesn't that make them worse?
Unless you draw all 4 of them as a single card?
Unless you draw all 4 of them as a single card?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Yes it makes them worse. That's the compromise. It lets you get the redundant cards in a single pick, but in exchange you don't get to "cheat" multiple deck slots in a single pick.
CML
Contributor
I for one like the Wadds idea of spilling the sac and graveyard theme into Red -- not with Gargadon or similar garbage, but making Hell's Thunder, Keldon Marauders, and Hellspark Elemental into more of "real" Magic cards too. So I'd start looking for cards that make use of Red dudes in different contexts, i.e. Delver for Burn or Thalia for beats, since RG and BR seem pretty well-supported at this point