General How to make red aggro more fun

[Jason Waddell]

Yeah, the problem I have right now is that people love playing red as the zombie "support" color, but they are never really going into red as their primary color. I don't think the weird cube adage "beat them with it until they realize how good it is" even applies here as I've beaten them with red aggro so many goddamn times. They just want to do other shit instead.

It feels like my Red section is being treated as many cube's black sections, where people dip into it for what they need but nobody wants to play it as a primary.

 

[CML]

Include the awesome Red cards that everyone else loves and cut chaff like Gargadon and most problems will be solved, if the problem is with the section being viable then you have something very easy to fix with your current config. Otherwise the thread has some good ideas

 

[DreamPaint]

OK first of all there needs to be more respect for Gargadon shown, second red is just an awful primary color. Nobody plays red as a primary color here either and I think that't totally fine because it's the best support color in my cube and combos well with most archetypes. As long as all your red cards are getting picked up and played does it really matter whether red is played as primary or support? What is your reasoning for wanting people to play predominantly red decks?

 

[Tom]

I personally, think mono-red aggro is pretty fun. Almost by definition it's the fastest, most aggressive deck in a cube. It's also the most consistent way to lay down early damage since you don't have to worry about supporting two colors during the early turns. I like having mono-red as the ever threatening punisher for decks that don't devote enough resources to the early game.

That being said, sounds like the people you play with just aren't interested in early red beats?

Perhaps they prefer more synergy? Maybe a turn two Goblin Lackey -> Siege-Gang Commander would be interesting? I know that won't come up often but might make somebody interested in playing red aggro. Seismic Assault? That kind of requires a primary red and you could combine it with Crucible of Worlds, Swans of Bryn Argoll, or Life from the Loam.

Or, as mentioned, you could convert red aggro to a tribe, probably goblins.

Or, you could give up on red aggro, though it's hard to imagine what primary red would be if it wasn't aggro. Maybe cram the low end of the curve with burn and sweepers... Flames of the Firebrand, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm, Anger of the Gods then once you've roasted everything in sight drop Inferno Titan and dragons?

 

[James Stevenson]

Jason, I can't remember if we've ever discussed Wildfire. I don't run it, but that's an archetype people seem to love in other cubes. That suggests that all these riptidelab hipsters will hate it for some reason, but what do you think?

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Wildfire has a very strong intersection with Grim Monolithy stuff . For me, its a casualty of respecting the mana system. The card itself is fun, but the support for it leads you to other things you might not want. Devastating Dreams is the heir-apparent for me.

 

[CML]

OK first of all there needs to be more respect for Gargadon shown, second red is just an awful primary color. Nobody plays red as a primary color here either and I think that't totally fine because it's the best support color in my cube and combos well with most archetypes. As long as all your red cards are getting picked up and played does it really matter whether red is played as primary or support? What is your reasoning for wanting people to play predominantly red decks?

haha why

 

[Kuldahar]

Is decision density in a red aggro deck too low? Play as many as you can, turn sideways as fast as you can, and kill before they stabilize? Perhaps that is why it is avoided? Are there cards that can increase the DD?

*shrug* Just a thought.

 

[CML]

I am not of the mind that aggro decks are all that easy to play. There's lots of combat math that control players just don't have to care about. That being said "curving out" is a good plan for newish players if your Cube attracts all kinds, I think its being accessible on multiple levels can be a boon for most audiences even as we don't have to, you know, pander to WotC market research and make shit sets

 

[Laz]

I think its being accessible on multiple levels can be a boon for most audiences even as we don't have to, you know, pander to WotC market research and make shit sets

Hey! Bestow is a good mechanic!

You are right CML about accessibility, although often it is difficult for players to follow cube designers down the rabbit-hole, especially with regards to riptide-cubes (doubly so if the understanding of cube is derived from Grim Monolith cubes). I mean, if you open a pack and see one of the supporting cards for a theme, then it is very difficult to reverse engineer the design principles. How do you leap from a Path of Bravery to the understanding of a life gain theme based upon maximising the number of life-gain triggers, while caring very little about the actual value? Sometimes it is good for newish players to just be able to build a reasonably simple deck based upon Magic principles, as opposed the cards that are exceptions to the Magical norm with which we tend to stuff our Cubes. How do you build this into a Cube? I don't know, and I am not sure if I want to know, because then I might be tempted to take out all of my 'fun' cards.

Gyah! I don't know if I really have a point. At one point there it was 'Accessibility be damned!', but I realise that is not a very healthy attitude to have, and I recall a recent 'split-card cube' that nearly made my brain explode, let alone the brain of someone new to the idea of cubing. Maybe it is take Magic principles about deck roles and the roles of certain cards within those decks and replicate that, to ensure that someone new to your cube understands that 'If I am looking to play control, I probably want to value these sweepers and counter-magic pretty highly...'. Then we can layer all sorts of fun interactions over the top of that, which can serve as wonderful 'Oh! I see the cool things this can do!'. Anchor cards seem important for this. Pushing this too hard just makes the cube unintuitive all over again...

 

[Jason Waddell]

OK first of all there needs to be more respect for Gargadon shown, second red is just an awful primary color. Nobody plays red as a primary color here either and I think that't totally fine because it's the best support color in my cube and combos well with most archetypes. As long as all your red cards are getting picked up and played does it really matter whether red is played as primary or support? What is your reasoning for wanting people to play predominantly red decks?

Uh, the problem is that once every few drafts we get a pack with just like, 5 red cards as the last cards in the pack. I think my group has a really strong bias against the color that has nothing to do with power level. I just want red to be desired as much as the other colors, and right now the demand isn't there.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Jason, I can't remember if we've ever discussed Wildfire. I don't run it, but that's an archetype people seem to love in other cubes. That suggests that all these riptidelab hipsters will hate it for some reason, but what do you think?

I've been hating on Wildfire since before ripsters even existed. The worst thing about the Portal sets is that it has put the abominable "Wildfire" archetypes into cubers' minds. I don't know where people got the idea that "win if I cast this spell with a Planeswalker on the board" strategies were cool and good design, and the only reason people probably push it is because there happen to be two identical copies of the card. By the same token (singleton) 'cubes' would probably be much better (designed) if Wizards printed, say, GravecrawlerB and GravecrawlerC.

Other problem with Wildfire stuff is the inherent reliance on lots of artifact mana, but I'm not going to beat the "anti-artifact mana" drum again.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Is decision density in a red aggro deck too low? Play as many as you can, turn sideways as fast as you can, and kill before they stabilize? Perhaps that is why it is avoided? Are there cards that can increase the DD?

*shrug* Just a thought.

No, I actually find the aggro decks to be very challenging to build and play correctly and for whatever reason the decks fare well in my hands but others often do poorly when they go for red-based aggro. Utility Land Draft goes a long way to increasing the complexity of playing an aggro deck.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Hey! Bestow is a good mechanic!

You are right CML about accessibility, although often it is difficult for players to follow cube designers down the rabbit-hole, especially with regards to riptide-cubes (doubly so if the understanding of cube is derived from Grim Monolith cubes). I mean, if you open a pack and see one of the supporting cards for a theme, then it is very difficult to reverse engineer the design principles. How do you leap from a Path of Bravery to the understanding of a life gain theme based upon maximising the number of life-gain triggers, while caring very little about the actual value? Sometimes it is good for newish players to just be able to build a reasonably simple deck based upon Magic principles, as opposed the cards that are exceptions to the Magical norm with which we tend to stuff our Cubes. How do you build this into a Cube? I don't know, and I am not sure if I want to know, because then I might be tempted to take out all of my 'fun' cards.

Gyah! I don't know if I really have a point. At one point there it was 'Accessibility be damned!', but I realise that is not a very healthy attitude to have, and I recall a recent 'split-card cube' that nearly made my brain explode, let alone the brain of someone new to the idea of cubing. Maybe it is take Magic principles about deck roles and the roles of certain cards within those decks and replicate that, to ensure that someone new to your cube understands that 'If I am looking to play control, I probably want to value these sweepers and counter-magic pretty highly...'. Then we can layer all sorts of fun interactions over the top of that, which can serve as wonderful 'Oh! I see the cool things this can do!'. Anchor cards seem important for this. Pushing this too hard just makes the cube unintuitive all over again...

I think you handle it by where you put the strength in your set. If players start off by taking what "looks good" they should be able to weasel their way into a deck. I remember I drafted Modern Masters without really looking at the spoiler beforehand, and just took a bunch of good stuff like Kitchen Finks, Trygon Predator and Rift Bolt. Eventually I started getting a lot of suspend stuff in my colors and tossed in a couple cards that interacted with the suspend mechanic.

Part of the idea is to make it obvious. You play any retail set and there are a number of strong, pushed, overlapping themes (ideally). I think early cube design made too many of the themes super subtle, they "hid" a playable deck in there that you wouldn't find without explicit knowledge. It's less of a single spectrum (how hard do I push) and more of a... the more you push things, the easier it will be for your players to catch on to what's happening. But if you push things with poor design, you can make the deck space too rigid. I think pushed and flexible is where we want to be, and when you have lots of flexible, multipurpose cards you inherently leave the door open to "good stuff" decks being playable. The dedicated lifegain decks, for example, can win without Pridemate because they're playing good cards like Kitchen Finks and Scavenging Ooze.


It's an interesting question though and I'm not sure I've addressed it thoroughly.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Or, you could give up on red aggro, though it's hard to imagine what primary red would be if it wasn't aggro. Maybe cram the low end of the curve with burn and sweepers... Flames of the Firebrand, Pyroclasm, Slagstorm, Anger of the Gods then once you've roasted everything in sight drop Inferno Titan and dragons?

I'm all for red control, but I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I have plenty of red aggro while still including (almost) all of the above.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I'm thinking about aggro across the colors for a second and what can make them unique besides just curving out with efficient creatures into a game ender.

Black has the crawler theme, where they keep coming back.
Blue has delver, where a single protected threat runs wild or cloudfin raptor and evasive while be backed by other big evasive threats.
White has, umm, armegeddon?

Red has its piles of burn, damage engines and land destruction. I guess none of that feels very unique, but if your goal is to bring the opponent from 20 to 0 in as few turns as possible I can't see much of a better pile other then non-interactive combo decks that we generally don't support in cube. I really don't know what to say as I've never had this problem. People love red here.

 

[CML]

Hey! Bestow is a good mechanic!

You are right CML about accessibility, although often it is difficult for players to follow cube designers down the rabbit-hole, especially with regards to riptide-cubes (doubly so if the understanding of cube is derived from Grim Monolith cubes). I mean, if you open a pack and see one of the supporting cards for a theme, then it is very difficult to reverse engineer the design principles. How do you leap from a Path of Bravery to the understanding of a life gain theme based upon maximising the number of life-gain triggers, while caring very little about the actual value? Sometimes it is good for newish players to just be able to build a reasonably simple deck based upon Magic principles, as opposed the cards that are exceptions to the Magical norm with which we tend to stuff our Cubes. How do you build this into a Cube? I don't know, and I am not sure if I want to know, because then I might be tempted to take out all of my 'fun' cards.

Gyah! I don't know if I really have a point. At one point there it was 'Accessibility be damned!', but I realise that is not a very healthy attitude to have, and I recall a recent 'split-card cube' that nearly made my brain explode, let alone the brain of someone new to the idea of cubing. Maybe it is take Magic principles about deck roles and the roles of certain cards within those decks and replicate that, to ensure that someone new to your cube understands that 'If I am looking to play control, I probably want to value these sweepers and counter-magic pretty highly...'. Then we can layer all sorts of fun interactions over the top of that, which can serve as wonderful 'Oh! I see the cool things this can do!'. Anchor cards seem important for this. Pushing this too hard just makes the cube unintuitive all over again...

Poor bestow, had its heart in the right place but probably just not possible to balance the mana costs for Constructed and Limited, so they ended up doing Limited, kinda, except all the cards were a little too good for Limited and a little too bad for Cube, and then they decided removal would be OP so then uh these formats happened

Maybe it's a question of what you enjoy, like my loathing of Blue leading, somewhat imperceptibly to everyone but all the other people who draft my Cube, to bad Blue. This makes sense as you're not running some sweet Red cards

 

[Jason Waddell]

Poor bestow, had its heart in the right place but probably just not possible to balance the mana costs for Constructed and Limited, so they ended up doing Limited, kinda, except all the cards were a little too good for Limited and a little too bad for Cube, and then they decided removal would be OP so then uh these formats happened

Maybe it's a question of what you enjoy, like my loathing of Blue leading, somewhat imperceptibly to everyone but all the other people who draft my Cube, to bad Blue. This makes sense as you're not running some sweet Red cards

Wait, who is not running some sweet red cards? And which sweet red cards in particular?

 

[Changling Bob]

The good (broken?) storm cards are all in red. Not that I'm advocating combo storm, but value storm might be interesting, with incidental combo storm sometimes?

 

[Diakonov]

I know it's sort of against your philosophy, but perhaps if you include more cards with heavier red costs you would get more people diving in as a main color. Not Ball Lightning so much, but perhaps Kiki-Jiki, Pyrohemia, or the aforementioned Seismic Assault. I also run Martyr of Ashes which encourages people to run red more heavily.

 

[Eric Chan]

People beat this drum every once in a while, and it never seems to go anywhere, but is there an instants / sorceries deck in red? I don't mean the bad Kiln Fiend ones, but something with Young Pyromancer, Guttersnipe, Chandra's Phoenix, and Satyr Firedancer. Young Pyro already goes well with stuff like Purphoros and sacrifice outlets. Maybe double up on free spells like Gitaxian Probe to smooth out the draws and make sure the pilot gets some guaranteed immediate value. Firedancer is a little more narrow, but maybe you could throw in a Lava Spike-like card or two as a reward for the archetype.

Dunno, just thinking out loud. Not sure I'd pull the trigger on a batch of changes like this myself, as it feels like a mono-red archetype that doesn't branch out to other colours very well, as it just encourages a player to stockpile burn. But at least there's more play to it than just turning guys sideways.

 

[CML]

I know it's sort of against your philosophy, but perhaps if you include more cards with heavier red costs you would get more people diving in as a main color. Not Ball Lightning so much, but perhaps Kiki-Jiki, Pyrohemia, or the aforementioned Seismic Assault. I also run Martyr of Ashes which encourages people to run red more heavily.

sure, devotion, but not bad cards for devotion

i've made this post before but now i will, per the super bowl, kick a dead horse



Your aggro options for red cards are already a little thin (Striker is the Red Skyjek!), but I think the main issue is that there isn't much in the way of 'value' up the curve, like why no Crusher with a Loam / Crucible theme, no Sharpshooter with a sac theme, no Imperial Recruiter or Kiki-Jiki with a Pod theme? These are all strong cards that assume extra power with synergies you already support, and choosing to run narrow and weak cards like Gargadon or double Act of Treason or Pikers That Kill Artifacts over slots that people will fight over more is obviously the problem. I get these are cards in a specific theme, but they don't really go in more than one theme, that theme is already supported, and they're not particularly strong.

I'm not saying that I would find it if this were my Cube -- who among us doesn't have tunnel vision? -- nor can I claim to completely understand your Cube's gestalt, but it does seem very, very likely to me that your Red section is awfully weak from a power and therefore a design / development standpoint. Furthermore, these kinds of cards aren't too hard to find if you look at like anyone else's list on here, and even if you hate 8/12 of them, you can run 4/12 and it'll drastically change your draft environment.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Sell me on Imperial Recruiter targets.

Anybody else have thoughts on Countryside Crusher?

 

[CML]

Sell me on Imperial Recruiter targets.

Anybody else have thoughts on Countryside Crusher?

Going once going twice.
I'm not that big of a fan of Crusher but eh gotta have some red 3's

I choose you:

 

[Jason Waddell]

CML I'm sad you didn't name Huntmaster or Nekrataal.