Just like a dual land like Tundra can lead you to Jeskai. I do not see it as an issue that you will see a greedy 4-color player every now and then. I don’t think it will be the norm. Do you?
Sets [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths
- Thread starter Onderzeeboot
- Start date
Just like a dual land like Tundra can lead you to Jeskai. I do not see it as an issue that you will see a greedy 4-color player every now and then. I don’t think it will be the norm. Do you?
I saw someone one time point out that constructed formats can basically use any lands they want but we still don't see everyone playing 5c because it's just too inconsistent. You have a tricolor format, so add the tricolor lands. If someone wants to take all the fixing and play 5c, I say you should let them. One cycle of these isn't going to massively shake up your mana bases, anyways.
The two factors that would most impact this are your drafters tendencies and your current power level. Is there an opportunity cost to playing an off-color tri-land in a deck? How high are your drafters going to value premier fixing and their manabase when drafting? Due to the abundance of fixing in your cube, I'm gonna guess and say that fixing isn't valued super highly as a premium pick.
If I'm a goodstuff drafter I would draft these tricycle lands highly and look to play 4c as a default if I can get the right combination of fixing. As long as I can outvalue other midrange decks and not get punished by control or aggro, I'm going to be super greedy with my deck if it's available to me. Then again, I'm not super familiar with all the archetypes in your list and how much overlap there actually is so maybe goodstuff piles aren't as attainable as I'm imagining.
On initial first glance of your environment, I think you should be fine with their inclusion swapping them in for the 2nd copy of each Alara Triland.
Do you think overlapping yields bigger tendencies to 4-color goodstuff or smaller tendencies to 4-color goodstuff?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think that if I'm going to include them, I'm going to double up on them and replace all of the Alara trilands. They're simply superior in every way. I'm already running customs, so I'ld definitely be willing to make allied versions of these.
I'd say that the more generic a card's effect is, the more it has potential to end up in a goodstuff pile. You want some overlap in cards to avoid the cube becoming a draft on rails scenario ala retail drafts that feature tribal, but you have to know where to draw the line. Just having the ability to slot a card into more decks leads to a lesser opportunity cost in the first place. Like it's much easier to find a slot for Tireless Tracker in any 4C deck that I would ever draft because it's utility is universal across decks (just plays lands and get rewarded) and it's easily splashable. Whereas something like Omnath, Locus of the Roil has a higher ceiling but asks more of me in terms of fixing, building a gameplan, and making sure that my manabase can support it in a timely fashion. If I see both in a pack I'm leaning Tracker, but if my deck has a ton of synergies that would push Omnath ahead into bomb territory I'd go with him instead. It's all environmentally dependent.
I realized this first hand in earlier implementations of my cube around 3-4 years back when I used to run a double fetch/double shock manabase. There just was very little opportunity cost to valuing fixing highly and splashing for all the powerful threats you could and this got in the way of any synergistic archetypes I was trying to implement. Why jump through hoops when you can have as great a payoff just playing good cards? I then went back and reworked the mana by swapping in BFZ lands where I could, added more cards with restrictive mana costs to form the core of archetypes (ex. more 1
cards instead of 2) , and I clearly defined the majority of my archetypes to reduce the amount of overlap in deck construction. You'll still get 3C or 4C decks every once in a while, but more often than not my drafters are playing two colors and maybe splashing 1-2 cards off a third color. That's right where I wanted it to be.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This is why I fear the new trilands might be too good at fixing. Fetch + shocks works very well in my cube, because I want to support three color decks, but if you can also fetch trilands, it might mean it becomes too easy to go over the top and just play 4c or 5c all the time.
I'd say that the more generic a card's effect is, the more it has potential to end up in a goodstuff pile. You want some overlap in cards to avoid the cube becoming a draft on rails scenario ala retail drafts that feature tribal, but you have to know where to draw the line. Just having the ability to slot a card into more decks leads to a lesser opportunity cost in the first place. Like it's much easier to find a slot for Tireless Tracker in any 4C deck that I would ever draft because it's utility is universal across decks (just plays lands and get rewarded) and it's easily splashable. Whereas something like Omnath, Locus of the Roil has a higher ceiling but asks more of me in terms of fixing, building a gameplan, and making sure that my manabase can support it in a timely fashion. If I see both in a pack I'm leaning Tracker, but if my deck has a ton of synergies that would push Omnath ahead into bomb territory I'd go with him instead. It's all environmentally dependent.
I realized this first hand in earlier implementations of my cube around 3-4 years back when I used to run a double fetch/double shock manabase. There just was very little opportunity cost to valuing fixing highly and splashing for all the powerful threats you could and this got in the way of any synergistic archetypes I was trying to implement. Why jump through hoops when you can have as great a payoff just playing good cards? I then went back and reworked the mana by swapping in BFZ lands where I could, added more cards with restrictive mana costs to form the core of archetypes (ex. more 1
This was a very interesting read. Most of the time I see praise for the double double on Fetch Shock and this is quite the opposite. Super interesting to hear counter arguments for the double double. The same with the 2B vs 1BB cost.
Might be worth pointing out that good fixing isn't the only the causing good stuff piles!
This is absolutely true, and the only reason why I find the Brushwagg somewhat interesting. But not every deck in Cube is a token deck, and 4 mana for +3/+3 doesn't sound too great to me.
This is somewhat dependant on your environment. I support RUGW Flash, and I do so with lots of sorceries and a lower powerlevel where it is harder to chain spells if your deck doesn't commit to it. On the other hand, how often do you have 4 spare mana to pump +3/+3, instead of only 2 mana for+2/+2? I actually find Wolfbitten Captive way better than the Brushwagg because of this, and I don't really mind if it's not flipping because your opponent is playing spells with sub-optimal timing.
Again, it depends on your environment. I don't know how often it will happen that you play a 1drop in a deck where you'll reach a phase having 8(!) spare mana to pump it twice, becoming a 7/7 with trample. A 2/2 that is able to become a 6/6 with 4 mana, the same amount as one pump of Brushwagg demands, looks way better to me.
I disagree, but the cool thing is, that it depends on the situation and how your cube is built, so I like to discuss this with you and share thoughts, as this is the reason why these forums live.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
A Cube that has to worry about 5C goodstuff piles is going to end up with a lot of 2C and maybe 3C goodstuff piles instead. That's a product of the spells in the Cube, not the fixing.
Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoth
Full spoiler
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-image-gallery/ikoria-lair-behemoths
Full spoiler
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-image-gallery/ikoria-lair-behemoths
btw I LOVE the idea of a cube with lots of mutate creatures in it (like, every interesting creature 2x), maybe as UBWG, as this combination is quite themeless in my cube (+1/+1 counters wants red more than blue, and EtB/Blink transfers more into RUGW, as it goes well with Flash). I could even see it as my 5C theme.
Actually, I'm pretty hyped and feel very warm thinking about it. Makes me forget that I hate Wotsie for deciding Tricycle lands instead of completing Bicycles (where Velrun actually has a point with 'holding it interesting'). Maybe I'm even doubling up on Pain and Bounce lands, as they're very cool types of dual lands, and just stick with the Onslaught Monocycle lands.
Actually, I'm pretty hyped and feel very warm thinking about it. Makes me forget that I hate Wotsie for deciding Tricycle lands instead of completing Bicycles (where Velrun actually has a point with 'holding it interesting'). Maybe I'm even doubling up on Pain and Bounce lands, as they're very cool types of dual lands, and just stick with the Onslaught Monocycle lands.
Everything seems so pushed in Ikoria: Lair of Powercreep. It speaks volumes that the cards that interest me the most currently are 3 commons from the last day drop. I've never had soo many "that's too pushed/efficient for my cube"-moments going trough a full spoiler.
Neither mode is good enough alone, but the flexibility makes it interesting. I do run lifegain aggro after all.
Maybe this also gets there? It can damage the opponent quite a bit for a 1-power 1-drop, and it triggers lifegain payoffs.
That's a nice uncommon, slightly pushed being so splashable and - oh shit, that's Ikorias common stat level. I like that 3/3 trample for 3 in aggro and I like a 3/3 roadblock that mills me in Dredge stuff.
Neither mode is good enough alone, but the flexibility makes it interesting. I do run lifegain aggro after all.
Maybe this also gets there? It can damage the opponent quite a bit for a 1-power 1-drop, and it triggers lifegain payoffs.
That's a nice uncommon, slightly pushed being so splashable and - oh shit, that's Ikorias common stat level. I like that 3/3 trample for 3 in aggro and I like a 3/3 roadblock that mills me in Dredge stuff.
I'm kinda meh on this set right now too. Kaiju + Pokemon sounds cool, but neither are topics I've ever been super into. Plus, I agree a lot of the mechanics feel really messy, mutate in particular. Here's what I'm interested in:
And that's it. 15 cards. Considering I'm an eternal optimist and want to test like 30-40 cards every set, that's a low number for me.
And that's it. 15 cards. Considering I'm an eternal optimist and want to test like 30-40 cards every set, that's a low number for me.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I'm loving the reprints!
So cute!
Love this card in general, and the meet cute is great
This, while bad, just clicks in a cool way
So cute!
Love this card in general, and the meet cute is great
This, while bad, just clicks in a cool way
This card isn't very good, but its art, abilities, and flavor text make me smile.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Ohh! That's bananas. I'm actually a little disappointed that we're getting yet another half-completed cycle. Would've really wanted enemy cycling duals
As always, if you have better names or better arts for any of these just let me know. It was more important people had playable versions of these then the best possible versions of these.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah someone pointed it out on FB too. Sounds like a good edit!
Honestly looking through the full spoiler I have pretty good hopes for this limited format. There's a couple of different strategies seemingly, and a lot of flexible cards (modal creatures and cycling). Seems cool!
This is one of the ugliest cards I've ever seen. Good god who greenlit this before sending it to the presses?
The design or the art? The wording isn't elegant, but it basically just gives your colored spells with a fixed cost Delve.
The wording is absolutely awful. First part completely fine, but then there are so many qualifiers to finish it up. Oh man, I can add colorless on card exile? Let's go with this Eldrazi or artifact. Oh wait, can't do that and I need to pick a colored spell. Sweetest thing I can do is Villainous Wealth and it's on theme in these color! Oh wait, can't do that so I guess something else. You understand what you can do at the end, but that's too much brainpower you'd have to expend to understand it on first glance. I think that's the big issue I have with this set in general; it's just not player friendly in terms of tracking various things. Mutated creatures, keeping track of how many times X has mutated for certain cards, multiple keywords and possible counters on creatures in this set etc. It's like a weird fever dream.