Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
To be fair, this is super easy, because you can just count the number of cards in the pile and subtract 1, because the first creature always enters normally (i.e. unmutated).
Sets [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths
- Thread starter Onderzeeboot
- Start date
To be fair, this is super easy, because you can just count the number of cards in the pile and subtract 1, because the first creature always enters normally (i.e. unmutated).
Just did a draft and first picked Kathril to test.
Deck ended up with 7 keywords in it with no attempt to make my cube cater to Kathril's ability. It was a fun minigame to navigate the draft with the keywords in mind. I'm going to consider if I want to make my drafters keep track of all those counters, but the card seems fun and pretty reasonably balanced. It has a high ceiling and low floor, probably going to be around the 5/5 you'd expect a lot of the time, cube depending.
This is how I see it:
Mutate
The number of times a creature has mutated is not something you have to keep track of. You just have to be able to count. Look at the creature and it will tell you how many times it has mutated.
Companion
The enforcement of the restrictions is not something you have to do. The game will do that automatically for you. Your opponents has to reveal their companion when the game begins so you know they can never cast a spell that doesn’t abide by the restriction. Also how many times have you asked your opponent to prove he only has 4 copies of each card in his deck? Exactly the same with companion.
Keyword Counters
Get the keyword punch out cards and you will be fine.
Mutate
The number of times a creature has mutated is not something you have to keep track of. You just have to be able to count. Look at the creature and it will tell you how many times it has mutated.
Companion
The enforcement of the restrictions is not something you have to do. The game will do that automatically for you. Your opponents has to reveal their companion when the game begins so you know they can never cast a spell that doesn’t abide by the restriction. Also how many times have you asked your opponent to prove he only has 4 copies of each card in his deck? Exactly the same with companion.
Keyword Counters
Get the keyword punch out cards and you will be fine.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This is a good take Velrun!
I feel like there's perhaps a hint too much judgments on game mechanics no one here as really had proper experience with. Thinking they'll be difficult to play with is one thing but to just dismiss them all as "too complicated" without having tried them yourself for a couple of days seems premature to me.
You are right Rasmus, but I think for me it goes back to the discussion we've had before about elegance and simplicity. Adding one or two playable mutate cards, one or two keyword counter cards and a couple of companions adds a lot more complexity to the draft and board - particularly mutate.
I'm sure once we've all played it a bit it will be totally fine, but I can see where my and others reluctance comes from. But let's see!
Mutate feels messy and inelegant, and also not appealing as a mechanic. But some of the designs, like the octopus, seem really cool. The reason I don't put it into my cube is the unnecessary non-human clause. I expect my newer players not to think of this all the time, when they arr already trying to comprehend this complex mechanic, and it makes the cool looking showcase cards unplayable, because they lack reminder text.
In addition, human or non-human tribal is an auto exclude for me, because I run some old cards that don't have human written on them and don't look obviously human-like. I can't expect people to know that Werebear or Willbender are humans, according to oracle types.
In addition, human or non-human tribal is an auto exclude for me, because I run some old cards that don't have human written on them and don't look obviously human-like. I can't expect people to know that Werebear or Willbender are humans, according to oracle types.
Mutate took me a few read throughs to get it and I don't want my inexperienced players to deal with more reading.
I'm open to Companions, but all the black ones seem a bit stronger than I'd like.
The counters are just a bit messy because there's so many of them. It's an additional thing to have to carry around. I'm hopeful they will make some dice. I really did enjoy that Kathril draft and that double Unearth is fucking awesome.
I'm open to Companions, but all the black ones seem a bit stronger than I'd like.
The counters are just a bit messy because there's so many of them. It's an additional thing to have to carry around. I'm hopeful they will make some dice. I really did enjoy that Kathril draft and that double Unearth is fucking awesome.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I love that both of your examples have had reprints with their new creature types on the type line
Wizards, hire this man!
When the sets released I would suppose!
I love that both of your examples have had reprints with their new creature types on the type line
But Werebear has just one without the old frame, art and especially the flavor text, which is worth more than any messy new mechanic
But Werebear has just one without the old frame, art and especially the flavor text, which is worth more than any messy new mechanic
So flavor > gameplay?
Nope, the other way round, but both are very important to make the game fun for all kinds of people (what we have to do as cube managers). But I don't think mutate will make my gameplay better, like at all. Maybe a few cards would be decent in that regard, but there are other ways among the 25000 cards existing, that also work better flavorwise.
Mutate mechanic aside. You seem to not like it so lets keep it out of the discussion.
I saw you comment that you would rather have an old frame, old art and old flavor text than something related to gameplay. Now I ask you if you value frame/flavor/art over gameplay? Because neither flavor text, art or frame has anything to do with gameplay. They are just skins.
There is exactly one* mutate card that I think is actively good outside of a mutation-oriented format:
Is an aura that turns Llanowar Elves into a 3/4 and gives you a rampant growth really worth introducing a ton of rules baggage into a format for? My gut says no. There is enough baggage with mutate that it could have a negative impact on the format, and many of the mutate proper cards are not good without a lot of other mutate creatures. Mutate really needs a dedicated environment to thrive in my opinion.
*(I know some people are on Gemrazer as well, but that card is very inconsistent in how well it plays. Powered ramp decks like it for killing Moxes, but unpowered cubes only use it as another chunky 3-drop in the vein of Lovestruck Beast. It's a good card, but it's less good in non-powered environments).
I think Everquil Phoenix is also good and interesting even without a mutate shell.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
What are our opinions on this guy:
He's basically swole Charging Monstrosaur with cycling. I was originally looking to ignore this card because he shuffles back into the deck and therefore is not a self-enabling reanimation target, but then I realized that it's just a kind of decent card. Even though it's a nonbo with reanimation, it's still a decent ramp finisher that on it's floor acts as a cantrip. Sure, Burn can't use this as a top-end play the same way it can with Charging Monstrosaur, but it also is a better finisher for super-ramp decks and possibly even control decks which appreciate the ability to have a cycler that is also a giant creature.
Plus, reanimator decks can still use this if they have some sort of instant-speed reanimation effect (this goes into the graveyard before getting shuffled back in), or they can simply discard it to Putrid Imp like a normal person.
Thoughts?
He's basically swole Charging Monstrosaur with cycling. I was originally looking to ignore this card because he shuffles back into the deck and therefore is not a self-enabling reanimation target, but then I realized that it's just a kind of decent card. Even though it's a nonbo with reanimation, it's still a decent ramp finisher that on it's floor acts as a cantrip. Sure, Burn can't use this as a top-end play the same way it can with Charging Monstrosaur, but it also is a better finisher for super-ramp decks and possibly even control decks which appreciate the ability to have a cycler that is also a giant creature.
Plus, reanimator decks can still use this if they have some sort of instant-speed reanimation effect (this goes into the graveyard before getting shuffled back in), or they can simply discard it to Putrid Imp like a normal person.
Thoughts?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
If Cycling/Discard Matters is a thing in your cube, I think this is perfect. Drawing it again just to cycle it is pretty good in such a deck, and you will draw it often if you keep cycling. Also getting a pretty strong finisher is bonus, and I find it way more interesting than Eternal Dragon.
I think this is a very good control finisher. Returning it to your hand by cards like Genesis, Phyrexian Reclamation etc., this will always be a 1R hasty uncounterable 8/8 trampler that cantrips if you've managed to cycle it enough. I really like that you have to do work for it, but gain something really cool and potentially strong, if you adjust your drafting and deckbuilding.
I think this is a very good control finisher. Returning it to your hand by cards like Genesis, Phyrexian Reclamation etc., this will always be a 1R hasty uncounterable 8/8 trampler that cantrips if you've managed to cycle it enough. I really like that you have to do work for it, but gain something really cool and potentially strong, if you adjust your drafting and deckbuilding.
Arg I literally just read your review a few hours before posting that too. Oops. At least we have similar feelings about the card
.I don't think it works with Genesis, but yeah it's very sweet with Phyrexian Reclamation, Tortured Existence, or something similar.
Yeah, I think Yidaro is at least worth a test now. Thanks Guys!
I still don't think mutate is going to be a good mechanic to just slot into a pre-existing cube environment, but I think it could be a pretty fun mechanic to build a cube around, especially if it breaks singleton for workhorse cards like Pouncing Shoreshark.
As long as the companions don't end up ruining magic like some of the alarmists have been saying they will, I think Ikoria will end up being a pretty good set in general!