I think mutate has been pretty fun in the 1 draft and 1 sealed I've had the chance to play, but one thing I've noticed is that the format feels kind of removal-checky? It's not that difficult to build up a pretty dangerous stack, and it's going to beat you down really hard unless you can punish all their eggs in that one basket.
Sets [IKO] Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths
- Thread starter Onderzeeboot
- Start date
I totally agree with you. I've seen people mutate onto creatures enchanted with Pacifism just to get the previous mutate triggers. That's how strong a big stack can be
.I totally agree with you. I've seen people mutate onto creatures enchanted with Pacifism just to get the previous mutate triggers. That's how strong a big stack can be
I'm surprised at the amount of mutate creatures that have essentially 1 card's worth of an effect, like fetching a land or edicting your opponent. Pacifism seems both really strong and surprisingly weak in that regard?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Jim Davis explaining the fundamental flaw in companions:
"Explaining the fundamental flaw in companions"
In order to explain a flaw you first have to prove that there is a flaw.
1. The set has not even officially been released into the world. This means it's a premature reaction. The set has been released on MtgArena but has release date on May 15.
2. Jim David might misunderstand something. Or maybe you do? Or maybe I do? The problem, the way I see it, is not the mechanic but the cards (if there even is a problem).
-- Imagine if Gyruda was still 6 mana but instead of being 6/6 was a 2/2 with the same ability.
-- Imagine Lurrus was still a 3/2 but instead of costing 3 mana it would cost 7 mana.
-- Imagine Yorion would still cost 5 and still be 4/5 but instead of requiring your deck to be +20 cards it would require your deck to be +100 cards. How much would be talk about those three cards right now? The mechanic itself is fantastic! The execution might (or might not) be flawed.
3. His little fun rule change is smart. And I would be up for that. Kind of like Slay the Spire's "Innate" mechanic. However I prefer the mechanic to stay like it is. If design team made a great mechanic and development team made the cards too powerful with the likes of Oko and Field of the Dead, we should not stomp on the mechanic itself. The Commander rule is not overpowered and You're in Command is not overpowered. A few cards might still be but that is not the design's problem but the development.
Final note: Jim Davis is talking about the cards purely from a Spike Power-max point of view. I usually don't relate to such simple minds where all anyone cares about is winning the most % of the games. I did when I saw a teenager playing Psychatog, Wake, 5-color Cruel Control, Caw-Blade etc. It is fully possible to design an environment where the cards are low-powered or even fair game. I can't wait to include them into my rogue-like because I know they will be fair and fun.
In order to explain a flaw you first have to prove that there is a flaw.
1. The set has not even officially been released into the world. This means it's a premature reaction. The set has been released on MtgArena but has release date on May 15.
2. Jim David might misunderstand something. Or maybe you do? Or maybe I do? The problem, the way I see it, is not the mechanic but the cards (if there even is a problem).
-- Imagine if Gyruda was still 6 mana but instead of being 6/6 was a 2/2 with the same ability.
-- Imagine Lurrus was still a 3/2 but instead of costing 3 mana it would cost 7 mana.
-- Imagine Yorion would still cost 5 and still be 4/5 but instead of requiring your deck to be +20 cards it would require your deck to be +100 cards. How much would be talk about those three cards right now? The mechanic itself is fantastic! The execution might (or might not) be flawed.
3. His little fun rule change is smart. And I would be up for that. Kind of like Slay the Spire's "Innate" mechanic. However I prefer the mechanic to stay like it is. If design team made a great mechanic and development team made the cards too powerful with the likes of Oko and Field of the Dead, we should not stomp on the mechanic itself. The Commander rule is not overpowered and You're in Command is not overpowered. A few cards might still be but that is not the design's problem but the development.
Final note: Jim Davis is talking about the cards purely from a Spike Power-max point of view. I usually don't relate to such simple minds where all anyone cares about is winning the most % of the games. I did when I saw a teenager playing Psychatog, Wake, 5-color Cruel Control, Caw-Blade etc. It is fully possible to design an environment where the cards are low-powered or even fair game. I can't wait to include them into my rogue-like because I know they will be fair and fun.
The biggest problem is that you start with +1 card in hand, and that some decks need little to no effort to do so. They should've made Companions not start in your SB but in your MD, maybe having some stronger ability only if you fulfill the Companion conditions. Like in Hearthstone with Highlander, Even, Odd etc
+1 every game is so fucking strong.
+1 every game is so fucking strong.
Good argument but I have tons of experience with that + 1 card in your starting hand and a great design can be poorly executed.
Imagine if there was a companion with the following restrictions and reward:
All creature cards in your deck must be Knights.
Begin the game with Call the Cavalry in your starting hand.
Would that be broken in a cube/Modern/Legacy/Vintage format? I doubt it.
Imagine if there was a companion with the following restrictions and reward:
All creature cards in your deck must be Knights.
Begin the game with Call the Cavalry in your starting hand.
Would that be broken in a cube/Modern/Legacy/Vintage format? I doubt it.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'ld like to start with this, because I think insulting Spikes because you happen to have a different point of view is not okay. We all take away different thinks from, and look for different things in the game, but that does not make our own point of view superior, nor does it mean we should ridicule others for not thinking the way we do about Magic.
Exactly. The set has not even officially been release into the world, and already companions have made a profound impact in every format.
-- Imagine Jegantha was a legendary 5/5 mana dork for 5 mana. Such a card would be nowhere constructed playable without the companion mechanic, yet it made multiple top eights across different formats already.
-- Imagine Umori was a legendary 4/5 for 4 mana that made cards of a single card type cost 1 less to cast for you. Seems not quite powerful enough to make a t8 deck. Let's make it a really restrictive companion, though, and boom! t8 material!
I think comparing this to the Commander rule is completely missing the mark. That rule only applies in the Commander format, and it applies to everyone, ensuring a level playing field. Incidentally, in competitive Commander (cEDH), Thrasios, Triton Hero is the best commander, not only because it gives you access to four colors when paired with another commander, and because it is a mana sink that provides card advantage, but also because commanders with partner mean you're up one card compared to someone who runs only one commander. Sounds familiar? It's really hard to explain how extremely powerful being up one card is, and this card advantage is inherent to the companion mechanic. Could you nerf cards with companion to the point that they're no longer good enough for constructed? Sure you can. Just like they could have made Treachery cost
, or Tendrils of Agony . That doesn't mean that free spells and storm are inherently well designed mechanics that are healthy for the game. Handicapping a card to the point it isn't constructed playable is easy, and says nothing at all about whether the mechanic is good or not, broken or not. Up until recently Reaping the Graves looked like a relatively innocent storm spell, now it's the talk of the town in Pauper because it's one of the key cards in a super powerful cycling deck that emerged post-Ikoria.It's hard to imagine all of these companions were pushed in the later stages of R&D. Surely Jegantha wasn't expected to be a cross-format staple, but more of a meme support card for Niv-Mizzet Reborn in Standard? People looked at Gyruda and laughed at how bad it was, until it broke Standard for a few days. Point is, it's really hard to evaluate how incredibly good this mechanic is if you look at them as cards that give you a small reward if you meet certain conditions, which looks to be how you're viewing them. An eight card is not a small reward. It's a huge reward. So huge, in fact, that it's really hard to balance these in a way that they're on the cusp of constructed viability without warping the format. In my opinion WotC's attempts overshot the mark by a large margin.
Honestly part of the phenomena isn't so much the +1 card in itself so much as the just absurd amount of consistency it gives a deck, right? If you play Gyruda you almost don't need any other ramp targets.
I think the problem is the combination of both: +1 and cards as strong as Gyruda, Lurrus, Zirda. They possibly enable combos or very strong value plays, and you don't even need to find them.
You are entitled to your opinion. Every human being has opinions.
However I did not insult them. First of all because they didn't hear my words/read my texts and therefore cannot be offended by definition of the word. Second of all because I didn't write any insulting words. Simple is an actual word you can look up in the dictionary. It means "easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty. Plain, basic, or uncomplicated in form, nature, or design; without much decoration or ornamentation." This is exactly how spike power-max players design their cubes/play their games. There is only one goal: To increase the numbers to gain the highest % win score.
Stop acting police. Unless you feel like the victim in which case you are entitled to defend yourself. But don't do this on behalf of other people who didn't get insulted.
Exactly like I wrote: Becacuse of their power level/newness. Not because of the mechanic. Get it?
Nothing should surprise you since nothing has changed since the card got spoiled. They are still an 8'th card; Something I've had in my cube for a long time with success.
And as I've said many times. It is possible to screw up a great design if you put the numbers too high. It is also possible to keep the mechanic fair. We can't blame the mechanic but we can blame the development who didn't lower the stats/decided to increase the stats. Or maybe we should just give it time. As you just said: You all laughed at Gyruda a few days ago and now you are no longer laughing. Just wait till Obosh breaks. You are in for a treat in the near future. The Standard meta will be very interesting the next few months. And even IF the cards turn out to be too strong and needs a banning, they will still be great additions to the game overall for other formats like Cube. They will not break my cube for instance because the requirements are so much more difficult to satisfy.
Just stop being a dick to people, it's not that hard. If you wouldn't say it to their face, don't say it behind their backs.
Reported
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Sorry Velrun, but you literally described Spikes as having a "simple mind". I get that English is not your native language, but I've never seen anyone use that as anything other than an insult. There is meaning there beyond the literal translation. Then you accuse me of policing, when I call out that specific bit of your post. Erik Twice was being quite a bit more direct in his language than me, but I agree with his sentiment. Your first argument, that something you say can't be insulting if those you are insulting aren't around to be offended is, frankly, misguided. Even if that were true (and the counterexample is easy, what about a bunch of white supremacists making hardcore racist jokes in a private WhatsApp group, is that okay to you?), the fact is that Magic players of all kinds should be welcome here, and calling a subset of them simple-minded serves no purpose other than driving them away. I don't believe for a bit that you are malicious and there is ill intent on your part, but I do hope you can see how those words you used can be taken the wrong way and don't actually add anything to your argument.
As for Erik Twice's choice of words; they may not sound nice, but here's the thing. You are labeling an entire subset of Magic players as simple minded. He's not labeling you as a person, he's calling out your behavior. With harsh words yes, but all my nice words did was getting you all defensive. His post was really attempt number 2 to get through to you that your choice of words was in fact problematic. With all due respect, I don't feel this was ban-worthy language.
As for Erik Twice's choice of words; they may not sound nice, but here's the thing. You are labeling an entire subset of Magic players as simple minded. He's not labeling you as a person, he's calling out your behavior. With harsh words yes, but all my nice words did was getting you all defensive. His post was really attempt number 2 to get through to you that your choice of words was in fact problematic. With all due respect, I don't feel this was ban-worthy language.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
I said I couldn't relate to such simple minds who only think about power maxing. I didn't say they were stupid.
Relate is another word for "understand" or "to identify with". Something I cannot do with simple power-maxing.
I would talk direct and precise with people in real life. I would describe the situation accurately when facing them. I do not 'act' differently on a forum than I do when people can look me in the eye. Calling someone a dick is ban-worthy. Instantly. But hopefully only temporarily.
The next time anyone wants to tell me how to act, please write me a PM instead of going public.
And please stay on topic instead of going after the man. There are other people who wants to read about Ikoria.
Relate is another word for "understand" or "to identify with". Something I cannot do with simple power-maxing.
I would talk direct and precise with people in real life. I would describe the situation accurately when facing them. I do not 'act' differently on a forum than I do when people can look me in the eye. Calling someone a dick is ban-worthy. Instantly. But hopefully only temporarily.
The next time anyone wants to tell me how to act, please write me a PM instead of going public.
And please stay on topic instead of going after the man. There are other people who wants to read about Ikoria.
Calling people "simple minds" and implying they are mentally inferior to you is insulting. And it's a much serious insult than calling someone a dick or a twat or a jerk, which are all very soft terms to describe your behaviour. Them not being able to hear you is not a defense, either. If anything, that's worse because it implies you are fine with being awful to people as long as you aren't faced with the consequences.
This is not the first time you have rude to others, either. I've seen you pick fights with people over silly details such as "this card is not actually strictly better", the definition of "unique" or not adding "in my opinion" to their sentences. I remember you saying Chris Taylor has "0 experience" because he disagreed on you on a card or whatever. If you don't want people to judge you for being nasty to people, try being nicer to them or at least don't question their intelligence.
If you think this feels like "organized bullying" consider how you make people feel with your posts.
This is not the first time you have rude to others, either. I've seen you pick fights with people over silly details such as "this card is not actually strictly better", the definition of "unique" or not adding "in my opinion" to their sentences. I remember you saying Chris Taylor has "0 experience" because he disagreed on you on a card or whatever. If you don't want people to judge you for being nasty to people, try being nicer to them or at least don't question their intelligence.
If you think this feels like "organized bullying" consider how you make people feel with your posts.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I am about to blow up. It's infuriating how we end up in this situation time and again Velrun, and it's never your fault, is it? I'm going to take a break and see if I have something more constructive to say later.
Whatever their design/development processes have been in R&D over the last two years need to be drastically revamped. It's one thing to miss things every now and then and warp a format, it's another thing to do so every other set. They clearly never learned the lesson of what a "free" spell is worth and completely underestimated the power of a virtual 8th card at all times. I don't follow much competitive Magic anymore, and they effectively murdered Modern for me in the last year, but I do tune in to check out decks and brews whenever new sets are released. I've seen so many decks just make the concession of changing some slots to include a companion and then just wrecking people. You're at the point where it might just be handicapping yourself if you don't play a companion in your 75 if you're able to do so. That's just insane. These designs aren't all that incredible in a vacuum and would be fine on regular cards, but having access to it at all times is just ridiculous. Removing the opportunity cost of having to draw the card itself broke this in two. I have no idea how they completely missed this. They need to hire people that can actually test effectively or change the development pipeline because there is clearly something broken.
For a long time Magic was propped up by the game itself while everything tertiary to it (competitive support, marketing, etc.) was kind of trash in its implementation. They still have good designs every now and then, but it feels like they're doing the Yu-Gi-Oh thing of power creeping with each subsequent set and hoping to rectify any overshooting with bans or corrective actions down the line. This is a dangerous way to play a game and will absolutely murder competitive Magic on a paper level in local areas. There's just not going to be a whole lot of consumer confidence when you can just rip out the floorboards underneath someone by banning their deck. It's one thing to do this via Arena where everything is a digital commodity, but it's another thing entirely when this affects people who paid real $$$ for real cards.
I hope they figure it out, but prospects are bleak till mid 2021 is my guess. All I know is that I lost any desire to play Standard with bans a few years back, they wrecked my preferred format in Modern with a string of format warping cards in the past year, and now I only tune in for Cube additions and ways to update my EDH decks every new product release.
For a long time Magic was propped up by the game itself while everything tertiary to it (competitive support, marketing, etc.) was kind of trash in its implementation. They still have good designs every now and then, but it feels like they're doing the Yu-Gi-Oh thing of power creeping with each subsequent set and hoping to rectify any overshooting with bans or corrective actions down the line. This is a dangerous way to play a game and will absolutely murder competitive Magic on a paper level in local areas. There's just not going to be a whole lot of consumer confidence when you can just rip out the floorboards underneath someone by banning their deck. It's one thing to do this via Arena where everything is a digital commodity, but it's another thing entirely when this affects people who paid real $$$ for real cards.
I hope they figure it out, but prospects are bleak till mid 2021 is my guess. All I know is that I lost any desire to play Standard with bans a few years back, they wrecked my preferred format in Modern with a string of format warping cards in the past year, and now I only tune in for Cube additions and ways to update my EDH decks every new product release.
I just don't understand why R&D keeps doing things they know to be broken.
Rosewater is very good designer and he has been leading Magic for decades. He either designed or was around for Lotus Petal, Time Spiral, Yawghmoth's Will, Grim Monolith, Gush and the whole cycle of free spells from Mercadian Masques. He has now taught countless game designers about the dangers of bypassing costs, recursion and free stuff. So how did he end up designing or validating companions or phyrexian mana? I just don't understand.
Broken planeswalkers? Sure. They know they are making overly powerful cards and they know they are doing it to create sales. They know they are undercosting planeswalkers or giving them too much loyalty. This is a rational risk. But free cards? Free spells? Why? Why would you do that?
I mean, like you say, there's nothing interesting or unique about these designs. Was there really a need to dig into such a dangerous space of design? I'm truly baffled.
Rosewater is very good designer and he has been leading Magic for decades. He either designed or was around for Lotus Petal, Time Spiral, Yawghmoth's Will, Grim Monolith, Gush and the whole cycle of free spells from Mercadian Masques. He has now taught countless game designers about the dangers of bypassing costs, recursion and free stuff. So how did he end up designing or validating companions or phyrexian mana? I just don't understand.
Broken planeswalkers? Sure. They know they are making overly powerful cards and they know they are doing it to create sales. They know they are undercosting planeswalkers or giving them too much loyalty. This is a rational risk. But free cards? Free spells? Why? Why would you do that?
I mean, like you say, there's nothing interesting or unique about these designs. Was there really a need to dig into such a dangerous space of design? I'm truly baffled.
I'm sorry to hear that. You are always very kind to the people here.
Hm, I think they're maybe experimenting with the overlap between commander and standard?
That is cursed. I really hope that's not what their intent with these was.
The weirdest part about the whole thing is that I remember MaRo had one Making Magic article about his design nightmares and shelved mechanics, and he literally brought up an 8th card mechanic and went “woooo variance is key to the game wooooo” (was like a Christmas carol themed thing iirc). Like, how did nobody remember that lesson?