Inscho's Graveyard Combo Cube

[inscho]

I hope I'm not about to necro your thread without permission, but I just want to say that I've drawn a lot of inspiration from your list. I especially like your higher power level version, after you took out the most egregrious outliers in regards to power. In particular the red section with madnes/hellbent theme is really cool, and facilitate some way cooler decks than your typical "attack and burn" that you see from some lists. I am partial to fast paced magic with many sequencing decisions per turn (I played Grixis death's shadow for several years to moderate succes), and I have because of that (not a great reason, I know) implemented a somewhat lower curve in most colors.

Enough about my cube... I guess I just really wanted to say thank you. Without the fruitful discussions in this thread, and your imaginatve cube construction, my cube wouldn't be half the fun I find it to be now

I appreciate the kind words!

Despite my lack of posting, this is very much an active thread, and I always welcome any comments, criticisms, or suggestions. I've mostly spent the last couple of weeks tweaking the higher powered list. Shuffling cards in and out each day. It's a challenge, but I'm starting to dial it in.

I'm currently excited at the possibility of re-integrating more combo elements into the cube's sacrifice package:



The appeal of sacrifice strategies has recently waned in the main cube. I'd grown a bit noncommittal with the strategy, and Hulk and Demon have halfheartedly bounced in and out my list for months without adequate support.

Fwiw, I think the higher powered list will eventually supplant the list in my signature, and I intend to make a thorough post detailing the changes when it's ready. The goal is to have everything ready for a January cube night (if covid numbers relax!).

Glad to hear that this thread has been useful for you. There's a lot of half-baked ideas in this thread, and I routinely revisit the same power level debate time and time again. It's been a long trial and error process, and the insight of this community has been invaluable to the development of this cube over the years.

Thanks again for your comments!

 

[inscho]

Still quietly tinkering away at the higher powered list here:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/1vnnj

Experimenting with a bigger suite of mana elves.

My focus of today is ¡surprise! Selesnya. The token theme was a sham as designed, and "creature value" too vague.

The issue with the selesnya token deck is that it doesn't really produce tokens before turn 3 in most instances. Raise the Alarm is pretty average. Verdant Command is 15% too lame. Squirrel Sanctuary is almost good enough, but challenging to exploit in a fast format. Nest Invader is pretty good and being considered. Squirrel Dealer is also being considered. However, I think that it is more likely that I will pivot away from tokens as proper theme, and relegate to being a late game option for the Tilling deck with things like Castle Ardenvale, Gavony Township (on the chopping block), and Emeria Angel.

Things that are working:

The Land Tilling deck is in a good place. Adding Mana elves, Balance and potentially Lotus Cobra is more than enough to keep it relevant:


The ramp/reanimator/oath deck is still present, but losing a little juice as other strategies weaponize:


There's the Berserkers archetype which is one-dimensional right now, but gets a nice boost from the Hierarchs:


So Selesnya has one very good archetype and the rest is feeling a little meh right now.

Trying to dial in the hodgepodge creature value deck comprised of aggro/blink/creaturefall/recursion/toolbox, and it feels like I'm missing a couple glue cards. Everything the deck wants to blink is 3cmc:



This is definitely a pool of cards that wants Birthing Pod, but it doesn't do much in other color pairings. Pod also wants more etb creatures and premium 4 & 5 cmc creatures than I support. Collected Company is great, but I can't really conceptualize it's presence in the other green-based guilds.

It's such a challenge to find a pool of cards with good sequencing. I need more 2 drops.

One option is to go a little harder into the Hatebears deck:


Which is severely lacking in green contributions outside of mana elves, gold cards, and Scavenging Ooze (a little too good here). There's Deathgorge Scavenger which is also a 3 drop (!), and Cemetery Prowler which is a little too good and a 3(!!) drop.

Selesnya is always the roadblock to increasing the power of my format, and it's very frustrating.

I feel like I've made this exact post before.

 

[Erik Twice]

Castle Arvendale seems terrible. In fact, I've played with it quite a bit and I'm increasingly certain it is awful. It has won me absolutely zero games since I ran it in Historic while I remember several games in which I lost because it wasn't a basic plains or whatever. Five mana for a single 1/1 is awful, even if it comes from a land.

--

There are not many cards you would want to pod or blink in the 2cc slot. I run the following and it's pretty much all there is:



I haven't found it a big issue, though I have had to aggressively curate my 3-drops. Magic has several design issue, one of them is that the interesting effects must all be costed at three mana or higher. This leads to an absolute glut of 3-drops in cube, particularly since multicolour cards, by almost definition, also lend themselves to being 3 mana or more.

--

I do not recommend Scavenging Ooze, it will wreck your graveyard decks. I think it's hard to make GW hatebears a thing. I'm trying to extend humans into green with mixed results.

--

I've noticed you don't run Earthcraft. It's a great way of making green tokens a real deck.



It should not be too powerful since it does nothing on its own and has the Fastbond problem of it becoming worse the more stuff you put into play. Either way, I think it's fine for tokens to be a slower deck, it has an inherent inevitability to it.

I also think a single copy of Pod is more than enough to support a fun deck. And I don't see why it wouldn't work in your cube.

 

[sigh]

Springboarding off of what Earthcraft can offer, I've found the KDM deck fits quite well into GW and offers a go-wide deck that doesn't rely on token generation explicitly. It might be an interesting direction to investigate.

 

[inscho]

I've noticed you don't run Earthcraft. It's a great way of making green tokens a real deck.

It should not be too powerful since it does nothing on its own and has the Fastbond problem of it becoming worse the more stuff you put into play. Either way, I think it's fine for tokens to be a slower deck, it has an inherent inevitability to it.

It's a good suggestion. I supported the "Elfball"/Earthcraft deck in the first version of the cube with this package:



I've been leery of it (and to a lesser extent Lotus Cobra), because the volume of mana feels a little too easy to come by. A card like Fastbond feels reasonable as a volume mana option, because it's often pretty mediocre and requires more deckbuilding considerations to get the most of it. I want my interpretation of a combo deck to generate the most memorable sequences, be the strongest in the meta, but I also be the hardest to build. I'm cautious with cards that make combo too easy and accessible. It's the reason why I'm not running Survival of the Fittest, which would be completely bananas in my environment. In my opinion, when combo is both the best deck and easily accessible you end up with a format that is completely defined by the pace of combo, which leads to the anxious arms race....."is my deck fast enough?" "is my deck too fair?" "how can I completely shut down my opponent?"...which can nuke the chill creative exploratory vibes I'm trying to cultivate with this cube. I want some of the highs of a combo cube, but I also really just want to laugh, hang out, and have beers with my friends at the same time. There was too much silence during cube nights with my original version of the GCC.

Springboarding off of what Earthcraft can offer, I've found the KDM deck fits quite well into GW and offers a go-wide deck that doesn't rely on token generation explicitly. It might be an interesting direction to investigate.

I still don't support tribal so KDM is not an option for me, but a great piece for those that do. I think Humans tribal is definitely a way to keep Selesnya interesting at higher power levels.

If I was going down this path again, I would likely be investing more into +1/+1 counters and slanting it towards artifacts much like Nanonox recently posted. It's something I've mulled over since including Arcbound Ravager, and seeing the positive impact it has had on my format. The shift is just a can of worms that would lead to a lot of other changes.

Sweeping architecture changes is tough to consider when I feel like the general cube design is pretty close to dialed in.... I'm already at the precipice of the design falling apart with things like Archfiend of Ifnir "discard control" and Vesperlark and Ayula's Influence shenanigans being officially too cutesy and underpowered.

I think it's likely more of a matter of waiting for the last few pieces to be printed that close the gaps I currently identify. Things will continue to tick up in power as new sets release. The high test is really just a slightly amplified version of the architecture of the existing cube, the existing cube is just an amplified version of the version prior.

 

[Nanonox]

Not sure if you are open to this, but including a few more GW gold cards compared to the rest of the guilds could help give Selesnya more direction (in your posts, you seem to mention that there are cards that interest you in the gold slots).

If you do, I think you could angle towards a resilient aggressive deck using some annoying 2 drop beaters:



Voice is nice because it gives you value, but not with ETBs and supports tokens and sacrifice.
Saffi is a weird one, but it's a cool way to protect an important creature. Imagine recurring a Hallowed Spiritkeeper which fits the resilient beater plan nicely! Also great with Balance and Cataclysm.

The ramp/reanimator/oath deck is still present, but losing a little juice as other strategies weaponize:

What do you mean by this? Is it that the reanimation targets aren't impactful enough or is it because the enablers are left behind compared to other strategies?

 

[inscho]

I’ve definitely considered both Saffi and Voice, but I’m not into the idea of weighting guilds. I’m pretty traditional in my approach to cube design and I enjoy the process of balancing. I have utilized a separate hybrid section at times, but that’s about as close as I get.

What do you mean by this? Is it that the reanimation targets aren't impactful enough or is it because the enablers are left behind compared to other strategies?

The original idea of the Ramp/Reanimator deck that I found so exciting was that the base of the deck is ramp spells that “cycle”:



And ramp targets that cycle:


Since your fatties cycle, you can run reanimation spells without shoehorning in ways to self-discard:



With all of the cycling pieces, regrowth effects become especially good:



The package allows the deck’s gameplan to vascillate back and forth between ramping and digging for your “combo” pieces. Which feels very different from a traditional rampant growth + fatty ramp deck or careful study + fatty + reanimate deck

The archetype relies on a handful of lower-powered pieces that limit its ability to scale up in power somewhat.

Oath does help the deck a lot, but it’s just a single card. I was running:



as a pseudo second oath that had some play in other archetypes, but it’s now too low powered. I’ve cut decree of justice for the same reason. The archetype starts to weaken whenever a piece is cut without a higher-powered analogue to replace it

The DFCs Emeria’s Call, Bala Ges Recovery, and Turntimber Symbiosis could help the archetype if I supported DFCs, but I really dislike using them in cube.

I’m not really satisfied with any of the other tooth and nail variants

so it’s a bit of a conundrum

 

[inscho]

The new Kamigawa set threatens to really shake up my environment so I started a fresh list here:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/17r57

A card grouping that I'm particularly intrigued by right now:



Currently exploring the different chains that can be made with this trio. It may prove to be a bit noodly, but it's something interesting for selesnya to do. I'm debating about including infinite sac pieces like Metallic Mimic, but it'd be nice to have something meaningful to assemble. Would welcome any suggestions.

Currently testing from Kamigawa:



Reaching critical mass for the artifact aggro deck since many overlap with the discard mechanic.



Huge upgrade on Fateful Absence and Oblivion Ring for my environment's goals.



Feels like land MDFCs for those of us that don't run flip cards. Very welcomed additions and function similar to many of my favorite cycling pieces.



More fatties that are perfect fits for my environment. Great for Oath of Druids, ramp, reanimation. Again modality is so so huge here.



Some misc support. Chef might be too slow, but is worth testing.

Would appreciate any test drafts and comments.

 

[blacksmithy]

ran a couple drafts, i always have trouble wrapping my head around this cube (which is meant as a compliment haha) but i was able to put together a couple fun-looking decks. WU Control with a Fiddlebender chain, and URb Drake Haven…

honestly i think all your includes from
NEO are quite good, although i’m not convinced that Hotshot Mechanic and March of Otherworldly Light will be long term includes

 

[inscho]

ran a couple drafts, i always have trouble wrapping my head around this cube (which is meant as a compliment haha)

Would you mind expanding a bit more on this?

honestly i think all your includes from
NEO are quite good, although i’m not convinced that Hotshot Mechanic and March of Otherworldly Light will be long term includes

Yeah, I can see both of those not sticking around. Hotshot was on my list of includes before all of the crazy red artifact creatures spoiled. It could be unnecessary now. I wouldn't mind getting rid of that trinket text.

I really like Otherworldly Light in theory, but it does need some reps to determine how useful it is. Fateful Absence was outclassing the rest of my removal suite. Although, that may be less of a concern with how much faster the environment is now.

 

[blacksmithy]

Would you mind expanding a bit more on this?

i’ve just not played or drafted much true combo in my MTG career, so when i draft combo oriented cubes like this i tend to waffle about and end up with an unfocused pile. this time around was much easier than i remember from drafts in years past, i think partially because i hit on a engine piece (oswald in draft 1, drake haven in draft 2) early and was able to use it as a bias.
even so i don’t think i went “all in” enough in either draft, but i felt like my final pools were at least pretty cohesive even if they didn’t “get there.”

 

[inscho]

i’ve just not played or drafted much true combo in my MTG career, so when i draft combo oriented cubes like this i tend to waffle about and end up with an unfocused pile. this time around was much easier than i remember from drafts in years past, i think partially because i hit on a engine piece (oswald in draft 1, drake haven in draft 2) early and was able to use it as a bias.
even so i don’t think i went “all in” enough in either draft, but i felt like my final pools were at least pretty cohesive even if they didn’t “get there.”

That makes sense. I've spent a lot of time trying to make the draft experience more intuitive. For a combo cube, there's not a lot of infinite combos...."explosive synergy" (to borrow @Nanonox 's term) is probably a bit more appropriate. Ideally someone should be able to meander through the overlapping synergies in a "choose your own adventure" style of decision-making. It's important for me as a cube designer to avoid the anxiety sometimes found when drafting a combo cube. Decision paralysis might be a problem with this cube, but I hope that the format is low enough in power that you can be confident that things will work out if you trust your impulses and follow through with an idea.

Your pools of cards are pretty cohesive. If this is what someone drafts when they feel a bit of their element, then I'm happy with where things are at from a draft standpoint. The thing that will take a lot of playtesting is how much breathing room is there for the less cutthroat decks to function.

 

[inscho]

Things are getting spicy in the Kamigawa Test! (Thanks to some inspiration from @landofMordor )

In:


Out:


The artifact lands really blow the doors open, and create a lot of synergy overlaps.

Makes me interested in Krak-Clan Ironworks

 

[landofMordor]

A card grouping that I'm particularly intrigued by right now:

And then two posts later:

Things are getting spicy in the Kamigawa Test! (Thanks to some inspiration from @landofMordor )

Out:

Wow! Friendship ended with Oswald Fiddlebender. Now Urza is my new best friend.

But seriously, these are some cool swaps. I am sad to see Clarion Spirit go, as a "payoff" whose enablers are a complete playground for the drafter. But I also love seeing Thalia come in to smack some sense into people trying to get too degenerate. I'm excited for this and hope I get the chance to draft it soon!

 

[inscho]

And then two posts later:

Wow! Friendship ended with Oswald Fiddlebender. Now Urza is my new best friend.

But seriously, these are some cool swaps. I am sad to see Clarion Spirit go, as a "payoff" whose enablers are a complete playground for the drafter. But I also love seeing Thalia come in to smack some sense into people trying to get too degenerate. I'm excited for this and hope I get the chance to draft it soon!

LOL. Oswald and Clarion might not be the right cuts....Azorius has become ridiculously complex, and it's a lot to chew through. I'm probably going to make many more revisions. The artifact lands are an epiphany, and I got so excited with what they unlock that I had to share. Things aren't "final" until they are imported to the main GCC list.

But I think I've found some of the pieces necessary to keep azorius and selesnya up to speed (azorius espeically) which has always been the main limiting factor in increasing my format's power. Hopefully, I'll get this list settled within the next week, and I'll be ready for a cube night once Kamigawa is in my hands.

 

[inscho]

An example of how Azorius is now opened up to have a Prison deck(!)



This is just lovely!

 

[inscho]

Expanding on the above deck: This is going to be common sense for most people, but I'm just taking a moment to highlight how much fun Blackstaff of Waterdeep can be in cube. People have touched on other artifact animating effects in the past, but only @Dom Harvey has mentioned Blackstaff once on this forum (turns out he wrote an entire article about it!), and I think it's an interesting enough card to warrant a closer look:


Are all 4/4s plus any +1/+1 counters


Indestructible 4/4


Can attack on Turn 2 as 4/4s


4/4s with a draw on death


4/4s that dodge sorcery speed removal and wrath effects

Then has a more traditional equipment application:

Flying, lifelink 4/4


Hasted, "unblockable" 4/4


Opponent's pay or you draw


4/4 Double Strike
etc

I'm sure there's many more bizarre things you can do with it (sacrifice a birthing pod to itself?!). Being a repeatable animation and an artifact makes it much better than previous iterations of this effect. In my cube, it can be easily hunted out with likes of:



which gives Azorius a beatdown piece that's a little more fun/wacky than a regular piece of equipment.

So yeah, sorry if I'm late to the Ensoul Artifact/Skilled Animator party, but I'm here now and I brought champagne!

 

[inscho]

v4 is here

V3 retired here

Nearly a 130 card difference. Higher power, faster mana, more combos, more artifacts, more disruption, removed a host of awkward low impact synergy pieces.

Still tinkering away, but the High Test was just too exciting to maintain as a separate side sketch. It always feels good to delete 5-6 cube drafts. I would ideally like to get the list back down to 384 again, but I need some time to identify unnecessary redundancies and filler.

It might be a while before I get around to updating the initial post. There's a lot to chew on.

 

[Galmara]

I like the new higher power version. I am wondering though how ogre-head helmet dodged your list. It seems perfect, supporting both artifacts and the discard themes. Would you mind sharing your thought process?

 

[inscho]

I like the new higher power version. I am wondering though how ogre-head helmet dodged your list. It seems perfect, supporting both artifacts and the discard themes. Would you mind sharing your thought process?

I'm glad that you brought up Ogre-Head Helmet, because I was thinking of finding space for it yesterday.

Helm was in the first round of NEO includes, but was squeezed out due to my hesitancy over the three mana equip cost. However, after seeing how reconfigure plays out in NEO limited I'm slightly less concerned. Not only does it intersect artifact and discard themes, but also power matters and sacrifice. It is a great card for this cube.

Now that I'm back down to 384 my issue is what to cut. Possibilities include Blazing Rootwalla, Underworld Rage-Hound, or Dreadhorde Arcanist. Would love suggestions on what can go.

A few notes:
- Green beef: I'm in the market for a 5-6cmc green creature that has solid midrange value and is good for recurring/blinking. Maybe Greenwarden of Murasa or Acidic Slime....not sure Thragtusk or Verdurous Gearhulk are in keeping with my cube's ethos. I'm open to suggestions here
- Interested in bringing back a Man-o'-War variant ( Riftwing Cloudskate, Barrin, Tolarian Archmage, Venser, Shaper Savant) and/or Skyclave Apparition to help blink and recursion be a little more proactive.
- I've unintentionally phased out a dedicated token strategy. I'm currently debating the value of its absence to my environment to determine whether I need to invest in it more or cut the remaining vestiges of the strategy (Battle Screech)
- To the last point, the Lands/Tokens intersection is under the microscope and on the chopping block. This includes: Felidar Retreat, Turntimber Sower, and Gavony Township. I enjoy the intersection, but it feels awkward without access to good cheap token makers in Selesnya. As currently designed, it is mostly limited to being a fringe late-game engine for the land tilling deck. Add to that, the land tilling deck often goes the Balance/Cataclysm route which is counter productive to go-wide strategies.

 

[Galmara]

Happy to hear it didn't just get the axe without consideration. I have som comments on two of your points. The others I'll have to mull over a little longer:

Now that I'm back down to 384 my issue is what to cut. Possibilities include Blazing Rootwalla, Underworld Rage-Hound, or Dreadhorde Arcanist. Would love suggestions on what can go.

My inclination would be to cut Underworld Rage-Hound. I understand why it's there, but I honestly see myself only very rarely putting it in my deck. It seems quite underpowered compared to what else is on offer. If it was costed akin to Hellspark Elemental I would be more enthusiastic. I might be wrong though. I haven't played much with it.

- I've unintentionally phased out a dedicated token strategy. I'm currently debating the value of its absence to my environment to determine whether I need to invest in it more or cut the remaining vestiges of the strategy (Battle Screech)

Battlescreech does seem somewhat out of place. The lack of selfmill/discard in white and no big incentives to go wide with tokens, make it some what lackluster.

 

[inscho]

My inclination would be to cut Underworld Rage-Hound. I understand why it's there, but I honestly see myself only very rarely putting it in my deck. It seems quite underpowered compared to what else is on offer. If it was costed akin to Hellspark Elemental I would be more enthusiastic. I might be wrong though. I haven't played much with it.

Rage-Hound was my first thought as well. It's perhaps a little on the cute side. I'm pretty sure I cut Helm for Hound. My rationalization for Hound at the time:

Unescaped, the hound dies to everything, but kills roughly 75% of the creatures in my cube in combat. Escaped, it kills closer to 85% of creatures. My format is low on tokens (maybe soon to be even lower) so there's not exactly a horde of expendable 1/1s running around.

I do really enjoy my red recursive creature suite, and having a 2 drop in red that recurs is welcomed. Red aggro decks are designed to recklessly mill and loot, profiting off various triggers, and leveraging a full graveyard for value. For instance, red and black decks use a host of recursive creatures:



backed with equipment:



To generate inevitability in one of the faster decks in the format.

All that's to say, I think the hound is better than it looks here. However, it's a fairly recent include and I don't have any data to back this up. I see the argument that it is a bit of unnecessary redundancy and is weak compared to other options. One has to really squeeze out the most value of each slot at this cube size, and maybe the Helm does more for more decks.

 

[Zoss]

Maybe this is heretical, but could Lizard Blades be the cut for the helm? It's a similar slot and if you squint they're both aggro cards. +2/+2 is an awful lot like double strike on critters that are 2/2 or smaller, after all.

 

[Nanonox]

I'm glad that you brought up Ogre-Head Helmet, because I was thinking of finding space for it yesterday.

Just yesterday, I added it back to my MP cube, as a way to boost creature damage, have wrath protection and a source of card advantage. All that while being an artifact really makes for a solid card. The discard would be even more potent in your cube.

Green beef: I'm in the market for a 5-6cmc green creature that has solid midrange value and is good for recurring/blinking.

If you can palate the mana cost,



Seems like it ticks a bunch of boxes for your cube.

 

[Galmara]

Rage-Hound was my first thought as well. It's perhaps a little on the cute side. I'm pretty sure I cut Helm for Hound. My rationalization for Hound at the time:

Unescaped, the hound dies to everything, but kills roughly 75% of the creatures in my cube in combat. Escaped, it kills closer to 85% of creatures. My format is low on tokens (maybe soon to be even lower) so there's not exactly a horde of expendable 1/1s running around.

I do really enjoy my red recursive creature suite, and having a 2 drop in red that recurs is welcomed. Red aggro decks are designed to recklessly mill and loot, profiting off various triggers, and leveraging a full graveyard for value. For instance, red and black decks use a host of recursive creatures:



backed with equipment:



To generate inevitability in one of the faster decks in the format.

All that's to say, I think the hound is better than it looks here. However, it's a fairly recent include and I don't have any data to back this up. I see the argument that it is a bit of unnecessary redundancy and is weak compared to other options. One has to really squeeze out the most value of each slot at this cube size, and maybe the Helm does more for more decks.

I completely understand what it's doing here, it just looks so silly next to Phoenix of Ash having similar escape costs. Diminishing returns on escape, delve, and other mechanics that eat your own graveyard is real, and I think the phoenix and Ox of Agonas will leave the hound on the outside looking in a lot of the time.

I kind of miss Anje's Ravager in your discard deck, and the helm might be able to fill that hole. But it's for sure not a given that it is the best option.