I'm really bored by the card, over the years the discard option has almost never been used, and I wanted to change some slots to be less exclusively aggro.
General "Looking for a card"-Thread
- Thread starter ravnic
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Can I interest you in a nice Order of Midnight in these trying times?
It's a nice beater that still has roughly similar value to Oona's Prowler in aggressive strategies, but interests Midrange and especially Graveyard decks as well because it can recycle a creature in the late game. The card is really strong, plus has some gorgeous alternate art!
Granted, the lack of adventure reminder text on the showcase version might be a deal breaker for you. The normal art is great as well!
Hi Trainmaster! I do like the look of that card, especially the alternate art. I would like it a lot more if I still ran a paper cube. Unfortunately the cards all look much uglier on MTGO.
As for the card itself, I do like it, but the 'can't block' text kind of makes it a difficult fit for a card that would also appeal to a defensive deck. I'll keep it in mind for the future though!
As for the card itself, I do like it, but the 'can't block' text kind of makes it a difficult fit for a card that would also appeal to a defensive deck. I'll keep it in mind for the future though!
I'm looking for a card to give green decks some finishing power or ways to punch through damage. Right now I have (in addition to some tramplers)
I'm trying to avoid another Overrun effect. I'm looking at 3 cards mostly, but don't have much experience with them.
I've been eyeing Hurricane, but I have no experience with it and the direct damage feels off in that color.
Finale of Devastation could offer some (very) late game potential at closing a match as well as playing well in most green decks.
Rhonas seems like the one who would be the most swingy. Either dominating the board if he can attack or just being an enchantment that you can dump mana into late.
What have you had success with?
I'm trying to avoid another Overrun effect. I'm looking at 3 cards mostly, but don't have much experience with them.
I've been eyeing Hurricane, but I have no experience with it and the direct damage feels off in that color.
Finale of Devastation could offer some (very) late game potential at closing a match as well as playing well in most green decks.
Rhonas seems like the one who would be the most swingy. Either dominating the board if he can attack or just being an enchantment that you can dump mana into late.
What have you had success with?
Hurricane would bother me a bit if I got burned out by it in a nonred deck, personally.
Finale is generally solid, but might not be what you want at the 12 mana price point.
Rhonas looks pretty cool, but you'll want to make sure you have access to ways to remove it.
Supertrample brings me back to that foil 7th Ed Thorn Elemental everyone had when I started. Someone else here must know the feeling. Whether the trample is super or regular, I definitely thing it's an easy keyword to get into your cube and may be the simplest answer.
Finale is generally solid, but might not be what you want at the 12 mana price point.
Rhonas looks pretty cool, but you'll want to make sure you have access to ways to remove it.
Supertrample brings me back to that foil 7th Ed Thorn Elemental everyone had when I started. Someone else here must know the feeling. Whether the trample is super or regular, I definitely thing it's an easy keyword to get into your cube and may be the simplest answer.
Thorn Elemental! I returned to Magic during 7th and still have my copy somewhere. I had it in a terrible reanimator deck and thought it was brilliant.
Tornado Elemental is another supertrample option that also hoses fliers.
What about supertrample?
(I do not know how to make a link otherwise I would let supertramp point to well, you know the band...)
Supertrample?
If Garruk Wildspeaker isn't quite getting there in "punch factor", his older self might help a bit more? The pump on the +1 really helps with the consistency of being able to push through.
Not an effect that grants trample, but the repeatability of being able to boost a creature +3/+3 also shines as a way to consistently improve punch-through power
Not an effect that grants trample, but the repeatability of being able to boost a creature +3/+3 also shines as a way to consistently improve punch-through power
I hadn’t considered the new Garruk, but he fits the bill. Reminds me of Elspeth, Knight-errant which does good work.
Wildspeaker is still amazing and going nowhere though!
Wildspeaker is still amazing and going nowhere though!
+1 Finale of Devastation and +1 New Garruk. Finale is a great card since it can act as a more flexible (but slightly more expensive) Green Sun's Zenith that can also be a big pump effect in the late game. I find new Garruk to be more boring than the old Garruk, but it is still a great way to help green push through some damage.I'm looking for a card to give green decks some finishing power or ways to punch through damage. Right now I have (in addition to some tramplers)
I'm trying to avoid another Overrun effect. I'm looking at 3 cards mostly, but don't have much experience with them.
I've been eyeing Hurricane, but I have no experience with it and the direct damage feels off in that color.
Finale of Devastation could offer some (very) late game potential at closing a match as well as playing well in most green decks.
Rhonas seems like the one who would be the most swingy. Either dominating the board if he can attack or just being an enchantment that you can dump mana into late.
What have you had success with?
I don't think Rhonas is too good if you want to run him. While he is big on paper, in practice, he's a middling enchantment that sometimes becomes a 5/5. I'm underselling the card a little bit, but he's inconsistent enough where I do not see him being problematic, especially in a multiplayer format.
I'm trying to reduce the amount of evasion I have, particularly in blue. Two thirds of my blue creatures have evasion, which leads to uninteractive games if there's no removal. The thing is, I want to swap out at least 5 of them, but I want blue aggro to remain viable.
What blue creatures that are not evasive and actually attack or block do you recommend?
Blue archetypes:
- Mono archetype Ux Wizards
- Triangle UBR Madness
- Pair UR Spells
- Pair UG Flash
- Pair UW Tappers
- Triangle WUR Artifacts
- Pivot Uwb Fliers (but don't worry about supporting this one
Edit: Forgot to list UW Tappers which is actually very relevant.
What blue creatures that are not evasive and actually attack or block do you recommend?
Blue archetypes:
- Mono archetype Ux Wizards
- Triangle UBR Madness
- Pair UR Spells
- Pair UG Flash
- Pair UW Tappers
- Triangle WUR Artifacts
- Pivot Uwb Fliers (but don't worry about supporting this one
Edit: Forgot to list UW Tappers which is actually very relevant.
Are you also looking into increasing the amount of reach in your cube? The evasiveness interaction is a two way street in that regard.
Are the problem evaders at low CMC or high CMC? With the mention of aggro I'm assuming low?
Conditional evasion that requires a secondary payment might be an option. Namely
If this is the elegant cube, I see that you already have the pilferer. Honestly I'm hard pressed to offer much if only because the elegant cube shows as an absolutely monstrous 920, and most of what I can think of is already there, evasive or not.
This is a decent effect, and technically no evasion, but that coercion factor that can lead to it not being blocked.
A more assertive Omenspeaker that still offers that scry bonus even if it isn't immediately useful in combat
A fixed Smuggler's Copter that still has very decent stats
This doesn't really swing the dial one way or the other, but I suspect it will often be copying a beater in another color that is less focused on evasion?
Edit: I've also personally not really seen evasive creatures in blue as being actually problematic. In my trialing for the new cube, the UW fliers deck is explicitly supported and still isn't dominating by any means. I haven't made even a draft list as of yet so I have no way to directly compare analytics.
Are the problem evaders at low CMC or high CMC? With the mention of aggro I'm assuming low?
Conditional evasion that requires a secondary payment might be an option. Namely
If this is the elegant cube, I see that you already have the pilferer. Honestly I'm hard pressed to offer much if only because the elegant cube shows as an absolutely monstrous 920, and most of what I can think of is already there, evasive or not.
This is a decent effect, and technically no evasion, but that coercion factor that can lead to it not being blocked.
A more assertive Omenspeaker that still offers that scry bonus even if it isn't immediately useful in combat
A fixed Smuggler's Copter that still has very decent stats
This doesn't really swing the dial one way or the other, but I suspect it will often be copying a beater in another color that is less focused on evasion?
Edit: I've also personally not really seen evasive creatures in blue as being actually problematic. In my trialing for the new cube, the UW fliers deck is explicitly supported and still isn't dominating by any means. I haven't made even a draft list as of yet so I have no way to directly compare analytics.
I bet you already play some of them, but I'll just throw them all in:
don't know if you want to attack/block with all of them and I don't know how your Ux aggro decks look like
there are other prowess guys and ninjas, as you definitely know
don't know if you want to attack/block with all of them and I don't know how your Ux aggro decks look like
there are other prowess guys and ninjas, as you definitely know
Thanks so much for the suggestions!
Assuming you mean reach as in "can block fliers" not as in Lava Spike, I've already done that and it helped a little, but not enough.
Low CMC is the problem. For high CMC threats, that what you're supposed to spend removal on anyways, and that's when the game is supposed to end - the thing is the games having been races in which there isn't much agency of counterplay way too often. It's just the aggro blue player trying to win faster than the other player with land creatures.
Yeah, conditional evasion is better as it requires you to sacrifice something to push damage through.
Also, if you're looking at the cube please filter by "tag:core" since occasionals comprise most of that 920 and it's much more efficiency to adjust densities at the core, so even if a card is in occasionals, adding it to the core is basically adding it to the cube.
It depends a lot of removal density and evasion density. I do have quite a bit of removal, but less than the average cube I think, and I'm pretty sure 65% of creatures being evasive is too much. I looked at retail sets and even blue creatures tends to be 25%-30% evasive at common. Other cubes I've looked at were 30-50%.
Assuming you mean reach as in "can block fliers" not as in Lava Spike, I've already done that and it helped a little, but not enough.
Low CMC is the problem. For high CMC threats, that what you're supposed to spend removal on anyways, and that's when the game is supposed to end - the thing is the games having been races in which there isn't much agency of counterplay way too often. It's just the aggro blue player trying to win faster than the other player with land creatures.
Conditional evasion that requires a secondary payment might be an option. Namely
If this is the elegant cube, I see that you already have the pilferer. Honestly I'm hard pressed to offer much if only because the elegant cube shows as an absolutely monstrous 920, and most of what I can think of is already there, evasive or not.
Yeah, conditional evasion is better as it requires you to sacrifice something to push damage through.
Also, if you're looking at the cube please filter by "tag:core" since occasionals comprise most of that 920 and it's much more efficiency to adjust densities at the core, so even if a card is in occasionals, adding it to the core is basically adding it to the cube.
It depends a lot of removal density and evasion density. I do have quite a bit of removal, but less than the average cube I think, and I'm pretty sure 65% of creatures being evasive is too much. I looked at retail sets and even blue creatures tends to be 25%-30% evasive at common. Other cubes I've looked at were 30-50%.
Sorting by 'core' helps a ton. Didn't know how to do that.
For reach support I'd strongly recommend Arasta. She is perfect against an aggressive UR deck, and blocks much better with 5 toughness than most reach I see in the list. I also don't see much in the way of high-end reach, like Multani, yavimaya's avatar or sandwurm convergence. Unsure how effective they'd be if it's aggressive decks that are causing problems. Edit: I see the convergence and Multani now, in the occasionals. I'm sure occasionals have play experience upsides, but they add a lot of mental gymnastics to trying to evaluate a list.
Also this might come in handy
Further, if aggressive decks are causing problems, I'd look into flier board wipes more than I would cards like stinging shot, though the shot might be useful too.
Bonus points for flash! And reach itself.
Sower of Tempatation is an immediate standout for swapping. That's evasion twice over, besides being a little too good for most RTL cubes IMO.
I also see a high density of 1/1 fliers for 1. pteramander is probably my first choice for removing, since it can become a big threat later in the game on it's own.
Favorable Winds maybe should come out of the core, or out of the cube entirely? If the fliers deck is causing this much of a headache. I much prefer empyrean eagle because it's easier to interact with, requires two specific colors, and comes down later.
The power level of the core cube looks a little broader than I'd expect. I thought Pestermite might be in for the value, but no, you just run the splinter twin combo o_O. Looks a little odd next to morph creatures and stuff like Choking Tethers. Same with cards like Hypnotic Specter. If you want to keep the Twin combo I'd probably target Nimble Obstructionist for taking out. That cycling ability can be really annoying anyways.
I'm trying to avoid cards that don't add to any archetypes - I feel like I can make it work if I run enough generic cards. It's high in my "reach ranking" though, and if I supported an enchantments archetype, it'd be an easy include.
I also don't see much in the way of high-end reach, like Multani, yavimaya's avatar or sandwurm convergence. Unsure how effective they'd be if it's aggressive decks that are causing problems. Edit: I see the convergence and Multani now, in the occasionals. I'm sure occasionals have play experience upsides, but they add a lot of mental gymnastics to trying to evaluate a list.
Sorry, yeah. I'd just pretend occasionals aren't there though, since effectively 8-9% of the time it almost never. I had Multani in core, but it was too strong with the recursion ability. Convergence is fine, but at 8 mana you've died to the fliers long before you can cast it.
Weirdly it's not Favorable Winds causing problems, because if you go Siren Stormtamers, Favorable Winds, Pestermite, take removal, you're attacking for 3 spread over one attacker. The problem is it's not even worth playing Favorable Winds, because Siren Stormtamer, Selfless Spirit, Pestermite, take removal still means you're attacking for 4 spread over two attackers. I do want some explicit signal that fliers is a supported archetype, I just don't want it to be too good. It's too easy to draft it at the moment, and the games aren't good.
The plan is to swap out:
Splinter combo is coming out. It's been more of a theoretical problem than a real one, but it doesn't add much either. Pestermite is actually pretty decent without the combo, but I don't want to run the card without the other "half", and I've got to remove fliers anyways.
The replacements I'll likely run are:
So I thought I'd ask for ideas for the other 2 or 3 slots. I'm doing some Scryfall brainstorming (c!u t:creature -o:flying, 1038 results...) and so far (like in the first 15% of the search) found:
Besides Ghost of Ramirez del Pietro, that was already mentioned.
If you have experience with them too, I'd appreciate input.
About some suggestions:
I've already run Eternal of Harsh Truths and found it to be too slow. Daring Saboteur was kind of bad, but I guess to nerf evasion is makes a lot of sense to swap Looter il-Kor for it. Ninja of the Deep Hours is also a reinclusion, because it was cut due to low power level, but again, that's the idea. I'm already running Brineborn Cutthroat (though haven't seen it much in action yet).
These little scenarios indicate to me that Stormtamer is actually a problem here. Without the Tamer the removal is doing a lot more work at reducing the power in the air than with the tamer.
Regarding removal, I'm definitely seeing a dearth of effects that can very readily help handle the deck. I don't see an infest effect, I don't see a pyroclasm effect until 4 mana, I don't see removal that branches to two creatures a la chandra's pyrohelix, etc. Moment of craving is decent I guess, but is it better than the much more flexible Erebos's Intervention?
A little confused here. Without an enchantment archetype, Arasta is decently generic, and very strongly fits a slot it seems like you need. Do you think she needs an enchantment archetype to be included? Or that she will unduly attract people to thinking there is one? Most drafters can and will easily ignore the fact that enchantment is in the type line.
Pyroclasm was quite strong, and aggro decks couldn't deal with it (or Whipflare). I do have Slice and Dice, which is spectacular against fliers, but it's just one card, and the situation becomes much more about drawing it or not. The problem with fliers was definitely smaller with higher powered removal, but increasing power of removal makes inviable interesting creatures that you need to untap with to use them and diminishes board states, which I want to enlarge, not shrink, from the point it is.
There's no Twin Bolt variant, but there is quite a bit of removal spread out multiple cards. Besides what we're already mentioned, Violent Eruption, Serrated Arrows, Firebolt, Goblin Bombardment, Firespout, Grind // Dust... it's not that hard to kill some fliers, the problem is that you _have_ to spend your removal on them, so most decisions are forced. There's no possibility of playing blockers, in particular, and cards that require blocking like combat tricks are useless against these decks.
I meant that I try to use real estate as efficiently as possible, so because Arasta doesn't add to any archetype in particular, it gets a ding in priority. Still, as I said, it's high in my priority list and I may try it. Thing is, I already ruin 8 reach/flier hate cards in green, and it's not enough.
I have added all five demigods ĺast year, because they are shiny and I try to make mono colored an attractive choice. First, I had some concern regarding Callaphe. But, like all the demigods, she has proven her worth. Even in 2-colored aggro decks she becomes a 4/3 easily and the ability is a real headache for the opponent of an aggro or tempo deck.
Also, her showcase version in foil is breathtaking!
Also, her showcase version in foil is breathtaking!
Went for Daring Saboteur and Callaphe, thanks for the ideas and discussion!
Another bounty: I'm looking for red reanimation targets (ideally 7+ drops) that provide some value even if removed. Current contender is Bogardan Hellkite, but it seems a bit weak.
Another bounty: I'm looking for red reanimation targets (ideally 7+ drops) that provide some value even if removed. Current contender is Bogardan Hellkite, but it seems a bit weak.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
This one is neat because it gives you a little something if you draw it early and then it feels better to discard to whatever; if you have the 'sac something to get this back' reanimation like Victimize/Dread Return (or Recurring Nightmare at a high power level) it contributes to that too
Can self-discard so if you have some tricky timing stuff like Makeshift Mannequin you can cheat the reshuffle clause, but more importantly this makes it easier to put it in a 'normal' red midrange deck that doesn't expect to hit 7 mana all that often.
I think Bogardan Hellkite is a perfectly reasonable option for your power level. 5 damage divided among anything on ETB is a pretty good starting rate as a reward for reanimation, that sometimes just wins the game by itself.
Otherwise, I'm a fan of Combustible Gearhulk. This card is great to reanimate, but it also functions well as a top-end for ramp decks. This card does a lot, but it never feels bad to play against since the person playing against the Combustible Gearhulk has a little bit of agency over what happens to them.