Card/Deck Low Power Card Spotlight

[Onderzeeboot]

The problem is that you don’t want to discard lands in the early game because you want to play your lands in the early game.

Imagine you look at a starting hand of 3 lands, wurm and a way to discard a card. Are you really going to discard a Basic land on turn 1 or 2 in order to cast the 3/2 on turn 2 or 3?

I have tried to make this work in Peasant in the distant past, and even then, a 3/2 French vanilla for two wasn’t an exciting enough payoff for jumping through the required hoops. It’s hard to play on curve, it’s not impactful enough when played off curve, and the fact that you have to return a basic land makes it a lot harder to pull off that is desirable for this kind of card.

 

[Mown]

Imagine you look at a starting hand of 3 lands, wurm and a way to discard a card. Are you really going to discard a Basic land on turn 1 or 2 in order to cast the 3/2 on turn 2 or 3?

Yes? If I get it back then why not, I only get punished if someone counters it.

Additionally, do y'all value 'instant' speed reanimation at all if not running the OG Eldrazis?

I value anything instant speed. None of the instant speed reanimation spells are very compelling for one reason or another though.

 

[Rusje]

I value anything instant speed. None of the instant speed reanimation spells are very compelling for one reason or another though

 

[Mown]

Including that one, yes.

 

[Rusje]

Including that one, yes.

Well, there is instant temporary reanimation for 2 or 3 mana, shallow grave necromancy. But that is it. Regular reanimation costs at least 2 animate dead, which I find quite strong.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Cheap instant speed reanimation sounds insane

 

[Mown]

Cheap instant speed reanimation sounds insane

In the abstract it obviously is, but in cube you have a lot of control over both how easily you can get reanimation targets into your graveyard, and how powerful those targets are.
I think the Shallow Grave variants would be cool to explore, but unfortunately they require me to either enforce graveyard order, or make all my reanimation targets into creatures.

 

[Rusje]

In the abstract it obviously is, but in cube you have a lot of control over both how easily you can get reanimation targets into your graveyard, and how powerful those targets are.
I think the Shallow Grave variants would be cool to explore, but unfortunately they require me to either enforce graveyard order, or make all my reanimation targets into creatures.

Or make it a random creature...
I quite like

Yes it is instant spread, but it is temporary and the three mana make it palatable.

 

[MilesOfficial]

A card I am legitimately surprised I haven't seen much discussion regarding:



Has anyone tested this card in a list that doesn't run a massive amount of Legendries? I am curious at density it goes from 'A strong but restrictive build-around' to 'not even worth an attempt'.

(slightly altered from another comment I made)

Loyal Retainers is the card that would be last to get cut of white 3s, one of the most competitive slots in my cube. It's a pet card for sure, but it's actually so good. Most of the best reanimator targets are legendary, regardless of power-level (even old-border Cubes are frequently jamming the awesome Silvos, Rogue Elemental), so these dudes are often just white Necromancy that plays favorably with Recurring Nightmare, Karmic Guide, using Helping Hand to cheat, and other graveyard synergies. There's multiple arts and borders to choose from, too!

I adore the heck out of this card, but to be fair, my Cube is pretty heavily in support of the Legendaries-matter theme.

 

[EzPzJapanezy]

(slightly altered from another comment I made)

Loyal Retainers is the card that would be last to get cut of white 3s, one of the most competitive slots in my cube. It's a pet card for sure, but it's actually so good. Most of the best reanimator targets are legendary, regardless of power-level (even old-border Cubes are frequently jamming the awesome Silvos, Rogue Elemental), so these dudes are often just white Necromancy that plays favorably with Recurring Nightmare, Karmic Guide, using Helping Hand to cheat, and other graveyard synergies. There's multiple arts and borders to choose from, too!

I adore the heck out of this card, but to be fair, my Cube is pretty heavily in support of the Legendaries-matter theme.

I was actually going to reference you in my post haha. I have indeed seen you talk about the card on a thread before and noted that you held it in extremely high regard.

I did notice that your list included many, and I mean many, more legendary creatures over my own. I didn't write down the number but I think you included over 20 more than I did.

I guess I could say I am curious, did you ever run Retainers in an earlier version of your list without as many Legendaries? And did it ever feel anemic in such an environment if so?

 

[MilesOfficial]

I was actually going to reference you in my post haha. I have indeed seen you talk about the card on a thread before and noted that you held it in extremely high regard.

I did notice that your list included many, and I mean many, more legendary creatures over my own. I didn't write down the number but I think you included over 20 more than I did.

I guess I could say I am curious, did you ever run Retainers in an earlier version of your list without as many Legendaries? And did it ever feel anemic in such an environment if so?

I did, actually! I started running it the moment I got my hands on it (2014 IIRC), and there was certainly not anywhere near the density of Legendaries in my Cube at that time. Here's a link to the earliest version of my Cube I have from around then for context, I got it pretty soon after this time.

I would run it so long as half of the fatties I wanted to reanimate in my deck were Legendary. I also run Persist, which kind of seems like a non-bo in my Cube, but just the process of drafting self-corrects for both of these concerns. I also like cards that shift your priorities during the draft, and both of these cards do.

 

[EzPzJapanezy]

@MilesOfficial

I think its really cool you archived a snapshot of a previous cube iteration. I should start doing so myself now that I think about it.

My personal favorite era of magic was the early 2010s up until about 2019, so my current list actually has quite a few similarities to your 2013 one haha.

And I would say I agree with liking cards that pivot draft decision making, which is why I am really enticed by Retainers as a concept. I will, however, also say that my primary apprehension comes from Green. I want Green to be home of some of my cube's best reanimation targets, but unfortunately the suite of available Legendaries sitting at Green's top-end do not interest me all too much. The new Ghalta seems like the candidate I would be most interested in, but other than that I am unsure how I would bolster support for Retainers there.

Edit: I lied, I forgot Kogla existed. Gonna add that and Ghalta and give Retainers a spin.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

How mega ultra slow do I need the cube to be for this to be even the slightest bit viable:


+

 

[Rusje]

How mega ultra slow do I need the cube to be for this to be even the slightest bit viable:


+

Slow. Like having many games where you have 6 or more lands and still survive while durdling for 4 turns in a row.

 

[ravnic]

You can minimize that by having very good ramp enablers and very tame top end cards, so that you can pull that synergy off earlier without dying.

 

[Nanonox]

Imagine hitting that BoP though after spending 5 mana and sacrificing your land :,(

 

[ravnic]

At least you upgraded that land I guess

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I just wanna find nice cards to loam back

 

[Nanonox]

Maybe some chunky ramp to set up Discover if the format is slow?

 

[Rusje]

I just wanna find nice cards to loam back

And so on? Strip mine and Co are (not) fun.

 

[ravnic]

The manlands are really cool with loam as recursive creatues. Gargoyle Castle is also quite decent in a lower power cube. Can't say much on Quicksand yet, but I imagine it could help the lands.deck against aggressive opponents' cheap threats. The colored versions do work but the ping damage can hurt.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

The manlands are really cool with loam as recursive creatues. Gargoyle Castle is also quite decent in a lower power cube. Can't say much on Quicksand yet, but I imagine it could help the lands.deck against aggressive opponents' cheap threats. The colored versions do work but the ping damage can hurt.

I hadn't considered the interaction between loam and man lands! That actually seems legitimately good, and I feel like we're in a golden age of man lands to pick from (There's like, several ones in each color pair now)

 

[LadyMapi]

Honestly, Loam + cycling lands feels really good as a card advantage engine.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Honestly, Loam + cycling lands feels really good as a card advantage engine.

Alright man lands and cycling lands it is, then

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Speaking of which, how good/bad is this cycle? I know people generally don't want to run CIPT lands, but honestly after having played a lot of retail limited and pauper I don't know if I mind them as much. Helps keep power level down I suppose, and I really like the duals with basic land types.