Card/Deck Making Delver Work

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Well, I'm talking about my cube (not pictured as of yet). Right now green is by far the most stretched thin color that I can't possibly even consider attempting to jam in more synergy. That said, Green/Blue has a relatively strong identity already, so I'm not in your boat here. I am considering jamming in a sprout storm though.

What other decktypes will see significant upside from these 10 midnight haunting lookalikes?
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
In cutting down the mana curve, there are very few "Ramp Targets" available during the draft. However, Blue/Green gets two reserved for them: Simic Sky Swallower and Prime Speaker Zergana. In addition to this, there is basically no artifact mana in the cube, so blue decks that want to go big are heavily incentive to go into green. While white/blue stalls into its finisher, green/blue powers its way there. Lastly, a plethora of green creatures that come with/produce +1/+1 counters allow it to abuse give // take (a card that I totally did not even have on my radar at first) which gives the blue/green deck tons of extra gas. These things make blue/green a very unique combo to draft in my cube.
 

CML

Contributor
Brainstorm's ability to flip on upkeep (and being an Instant) makes it significantly better than Ponder. I don't really consider them in the same ballpark for Delver. Maybe it's the lack of shuffles, but I like Preordain better than Ponder in Pauper Delver.

My guess as to why Delver does well in mine but not yours is simply that the blue decks in my cube are better than the blue decks in yours. You have a big ol pro-Naya (particularly pro-green) bias in your Magic mentality, and you probably don't mind blue sucking as much as you should.


yeah and wescoe likes WW. tell me more about legacy please sir what is "instant"?

serious question: how do i improve blue?! with the card choices being what they are in both of our cubes, JWaddy, i'm surprised this is not an ish for you too, and as i have no interest in nerfing my beloved Naya i have no choice but to buff Allez Les Bleus. by taking out the lame-duck delver and devotion themes i have had more space to devote to stuff like complicate and both gifts ungiven and intuition and careful study and sphinx of uthuun -- tightening up the section by not making it do too much, avoiding the gravecrawler-griselbrand fallacy, in the parlance of our forum -- and i'm hoping this is enough to help it out but i REALLY could use a fresh set of eyes, so please, everyone, help me out!

http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/114
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
yeah and wescoe likes WW. tell me more about legacy please sir what is "instant"?

serious question: how do i improve blue?! with the card choices being what they are in both of our cubes, JWaddy, i'm surprised this is not an ish for you too, and as i have no interest in nerfing my beloved Naya i have no choice but to buff Allez Les Bleus. by taking out the lame-duck delver and devotion themes i have had more space to devote to stuff like complicate and both gifts ungiven and intuition and careful study and sphinx of uthuun -- tightening up the section by not making it do too much, avoiding the gravecrawler-griselbrand fallacy, in the parlance of our forum -- and i'm hoping this is enough to help it out but i REALLY could use a fresh set of eyes, so please, everyone, help me out!

http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/114

Play more 3/4 three-drops and put in blue finishers that aren't terrible. Preferably ones that fly, if you're going to play Gravitational Shift.
Run Test Subject, cut Time Warp. Play Daze.
Maybe do less looting? It looks like you do a lot of looting.
Come to terms with the fact that Gifts Ungiven is awful in cube. :)
Put back in Delver.
Blast things Psionically.
 

CML

Contributor
yeah gifts does suck, doesn't it ;/

i love psi blast

maybe buried alive would be fun with the gravy theme

test subject is an awful card

daze doesn't work for control

help me find these alleged awesome blue finishers
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor


My favorites
Man this got so derailed :p

RE: Jason
  1. Not so huge of a fan of Stitched Drake personally since blue usually ended up threat light, but I love me a good serendib efreet. Fettergeist might be the start of a good threat light deck.
  2. Time warp sucks, Daze rocks, Test Subject is better than CML will ever give it credit for.
  3. Keep looting where it is, add another Runechanter's pike :D
  4. Gifts is only good when you find broken cards with it, and then you're running broken cards. We don't like that.
  5. As the point of this thread is to find out what to do with delver, I support this. Still confused on the how though :p
  6. Psionic Blast keeps finding it's way in and out of my cube. I'll admit it probably belongs in if blue wants to be attacking at all.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Sphinx of Shroud and 5/5
Sphinx of Drawing 2 cards a turn.

daze doesn't work for control
but I also complain that Delver decks don't work
maybe I just like to complain

I imagine Delver sucks in your cube because you're not committing hard enough to your blue aggro/tempo package. You can't shy away from cards like Daze if that's what you want.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
My favorites
Man this got so derailed :p


I don't think it's that derailed. Finishers, maybe, but identifying the differences between CML's blue section and mine is pretty instructive. For example, the absence of...

Image.ashx
Image.ashx
Image.ashx


may contribute to Delver decks sucking.
 

CML

Contributor
are those cards good enough?!? blue is pretty bloated in the 3CMC slot.

i am threadjacking this back on topic. united 93 will be landing safely in pennsylvania this evening

let's throw out a shell for a delver section, focusing mainly on 1- and 2-cmc blue guys. i'll brainstorm (i'm sure i'll forget some obvious shit but THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A FORUM):

BLUE DUDES
1cmc
delvers (2pc)
cloudfins (2pc)
judge's familiar
wingcrafter? nivmagus elemental? cursecatcher? flying men?
2cmc
phantasmal image
snapcaster mage
riftwing cloudskate
looter il-kor
frostburn weird
sygg, river cutthroat
tidebinder mage? coralhelm commander? spellstutter sprite?
3cmc
serendib efreet
vendilion clique
man-o'-war
fettergeist? pestermite? vexing sphinx? old man of the sea?

BLUE SUPPORT
force spike
spell pierce
all the obvious 2cmc counters
bident of thassa
daze?
stifle?
force of will?
favorable winds? gravitational shift?
how many cantrips? (best guess: 1 probe 1 preordain 2 ponder 3 brainstorm for a 450, cut 1-2 for a 360)

OTHER SUPPORT
W: lingering souls, spectral procession, squadron hawks, midnight haunting?
B: oona's prowler, tombstalker, 5-6 1cmc discard spells, sinkhole?
R: young pyromancer, guttersnipe, earthquake, rough/tumble?
G: nah
UW: geist of saint traft, drogskol captain?, pride of the clouds?
UB: duskmantle seer?, nightveil specter?
UR: help
UG: edric, temporal spring?
Lands: dunno either (riptide lab?!)
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Delver and cloudfin raptor fit in very different decks. You should pick one, since they don't synergize with eath other. Since Raptor is easy and given the title of this thread, let's focus on delver:

1cc
Triple Delver I think. I'd add less, but I don't think there's another 1 drop this deck wants, because:
  • Cloudfin Raptor: Antisynergy. One says jam with cratures, one says jam with spells.
  • Judges Famaliar: I've rarely found 1 power attacking creatures to be worth it, unless they do something real special. He's not it.
  • Wingcrafter: Maybe, but it seems bad for this deck. Good for other stuff, but bad for this one.
  • Nivmagus Elemental: Maybe if you ran theros levels of removal
  • Cursecatcher: Like Judge's Familiar, but worse. There's likely one reason to be a merfolk in cube, and thats not reason enough
  • Flying Men: See comments on judge's famaliar. Points for oldscool though.
Other suggustions: None
2CC
Other Suggustions: Faerie Conclave, if you count like I do. Vaporkin/Welkin Tern could fit in, but I've always been wary of random beaters that can't block ever since I noticed my fascination with shadow guys basically had the black mage playing with a leyline of bedlam just for playing swamps.
Withdraw is a strong flexible bounce spell, and Undo is it's derpier more consistent cousin.
3CC
  • serendib efreet: The best blue beatdown creature.
  • vendilion clique: Actually it's probably this one. But damn is she (they?) fragile.
  • man-o'-war: A solid inclusion, but it isn't winning any games on it's own, you need to be using this to press your advantage, something a deck with few 1 drops can basically never do. I haven't given up hope however.
  • fettergeist: I had a lot of problems with this one because it's so hard for decks to go threat light. That, and sacrificing a land (Come on, that's what that upkeep means) is so much worse than 1 damage from serendib most of the time, given how well he blocks.
  • pestermite: Here's a premier beatdown creature. Fog a guy, untap a blocker, reasonable power, the whole deal.
  • vexing sphinx: Large creature with a small fading count. Thats a steep upkeep, and I'm not sure me (or my drafters) would bite.
  • old man of the sea: This is a control card, don't pretend. Everything about Vedalken Shackles applies here, but in less broken ammounts. Don't count this as delver support.
Other Suggustions: Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is an amazing card for protecting larger threats, which is a shame because blue's creatures are all so small. Calcite Snapper is a solid one here, and if you're okay with creatures who can't block Wake Thrasher is large and in charge.
Forbid is probably one of the better ways of pressing a board advantage in cube, and Psionic Blast fits in well here.
4CC+
Since you so helpfully neglected the best CMC in magic :p
  • Venser, Shaper Savant: He's like man-o'-war but he also stops their wrath. Also the new FTV printing is preety :D
  • Sower of Temptation: Swingy. Anything that imitates control magic but control decks don't want is sweet in my book.
  • Talrand's Invocation: I mention this because blue's creatures are all so fucking small, so it's rare to see 4 power of evasion guys for 4 mana, even if it does get blanked by Giant Spider hard.
  • Opposition: Give people a chance to draft blue creatures and not feel bad about it! It's double blue so it doesn't find it's way into the GW tokens decks that often, assuming you do have those kinds of decks.
  • Trechery: While a lot can be said for this effect, I like it better here than in control, since you'll actually do something with the mana other than bluff mana leak.
Other Blue Support
  • force spike: Good
  • spell pierce: Slightly less good, but still good. Think of it like gods willing but sometimes it counters a wrath
  • Mana Leak and co: Solid. You'll be competing for them, but I don't think we should be adding more than we already run, since for every time they counter doom blade someone the next table over is using them as doom blade, and you shouldn't have too many doom blades
  • bident of thassa: Interesting. Weather this is good is an indicator of the archetype, since bloody nobody wants this except maybe the token deck with WAAAAAY too much manafixing.
  • daze: Essential. Nobody expects the daze.
  • stifle: I'm trying it now, but this one is again cube dependant. Bonus points if you run extra fetchlands, but there might not be much else worth stifling. It's worth noting that it's 2 mana cousin trickbind is infinitly worse, sadly (Especially given the 30+$ price difference)
  • force of will: I've never had much success. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?
  • favorable winds: I don't really like anthems unless your dudes are actually multiple doods. But I'll admit that's personal bias. I've never ran glorious anthem in WW, I don't think I would run this here either.
  • gravitational shift: This is a control card which is essentially double urza's armor unless you're playing against this very deck, in which case it gets boarded out faster than Pyroblast in the Modo Cube. I guess it could be a funny trap? Also see thoughts concerning favorable winds.
  • Cantrips: I wouldn't go much further than 6 personally (Ponder, Preordain, Something, and Triple Brainstorm). They are good in the deck since they both help delver flip and are live if you don't have a delver, but after a certain point your deck is just half cantrips and you have no way of winning.
Multicolor Support
W: lingering souls, spectral procession, squadron hawks, midnight haunting?
--I hope so, that's what this whole thread is about :p
B: oona's prowler, tombstalker, 5-6 1cmc discard spells, sinkhole?
--Prowler probably not, Tombstalker probably not (8 mana is a lot), 1CC discard is sweet but hard to come by. Don't double up on thoughtseize, it leads to bad gameplay :(
R: young pyromancer, guttersnipe, earthquake, rough/tumble?
--Pyromancer YES, Guttersnipe maybe, Earthquake is too slow, rough//tumble maybe. There's probably more cheap doesnt-hit-fliers sweepers, and they might be the key in small numbers.
G: nah
--This should work the same way you have white outlined if we can find the right cards.
UW: geist of saint traft, drogskol captain?, pride of the clouds?
--Geist yes, Captain no, pride hell no (So slow)
UB: duskmantle seer?, nightveil specter?
--Seer yes, Specter maybe, Iunno. I'm sticking with finkel at least until a foil one isn't a bajillion dollars :p
UR: help
--Literally any cantrip burn, Spellheart Chimera, Izzet Charm, Jilt
UG: edric, temporal spring?
--Love both of those, Mystic Snake probably plays well (assuming he isn't too slow) and Trygon Predator is a solid all around card who does nicely here, disrupting signets and swords alike.
Lands: dunno either (riptide lab?!)
--I mean riptide lab doesn't seem bad... Probably utility draft only though, I don't see that being main cube material.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Any Cube that can support Delver needs Nivmagus Elemental and Talrand. I like the idea of making Favorable Winds work.

On the flipside, an attempt at a permanent-heavy blue section:

1 Patron Wizard
1 Master of Waves
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Grand Architect
1 Shapesharer
1 Azure Mage
1 Tidebinder Mage
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Bident of Thassa
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Enclave Cryptologist
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Body Double
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Cryptic Command
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Force Spike
1 Mana Leak
1 Remand
1 Miscalculation
1 Counterspell
1 Forbid
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Opposition
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Into the Roil
1 Lighthouse Chronologist
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Stern Proctor
1 AEther Adept
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Brainstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Preordain
1 Time Warp
1 Control Magic
1 Mulldrifter
1 Riftwing Cloudskate
1 Spiketail Drakeling
1 Ponder
1 Aeon Chronicler
1 Pestermite
1 Serendib Efreet
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Treachery
1 Nephalia Smuggler
1 Stormbound Geist
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Standstill
1 Daze
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Psionic Blast
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Crystal Shard
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Repulse
1 Stifle
1 Wake Thrasher
1 Topsy Turvy
1 Sunder
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Any Cube that can support Delver needs Nivmagus Elemental and Talrand. I like the idea of making Favorable Winds work.

Nivmagus Elemental is too vulnerable to be channeling cards into, blue doesn't want rogue elemental, and Talarand is very slow. If young pyromacer has shown us anything, it's that landing before you do the majority of your spellcasting is key.
Favorable winds could work, but I'm not the guy to do it :p

Can I get opinions on the following cards? I think I've cut each and every one at one point or another, how have they been for you?
Stern Proctor is legitimately awesome though, especially if signets are actually a thing in your cube.

1 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Azure Mage
1 Into the Roil
1 Spiketail Drakeling
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Stormbound Geist
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Standstill
1 Topsy Turvy (Is this just blue relentless assault + cantrip?)
1 Sunder

Other than that though:
1 Lighthouse Chronologist: I think there are better walls, and better level up guys. And better level up walls
1 Mystical Tutor: Why do people run this card? It flips delver sure, but you give up a card for it, and unless you're fetching something truly broken, it's not worth it. At least vampiric tutor had the decency to pretend it was a toolbox card and not a combo card.
1 AEther Adept: ugh what devotion makes us do. I'm running another man-o'-war over this guy, and I still think that's right, but I guess there is a reason now.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I can see Talrand's Invocation but definitely not Talrand. UR gold section should just be all spells (electrolyze, etc.)
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
  • 1CC discard is sweet but hard to come by. Don't double up on thoughtseize, it leads to bad gameplay :(

Sorry to nitpick at your excellent post, but I really love hand disruption spells in cube. Going into the tank while the opponent has his hand laid out on the table is really fun, and I think the choices tend to be less obvious than in constructed. Skill testing and interactive. What's not to love?
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Thoughtseize has a relevant drawback and gives black answers to artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers, which are all big concerns in Cube. I heartily endorse playing lots of copies.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I like the versions with restrictions better, like inquisition of kozilek, duress or addle (Which I play a 1cc version of)
I can't remember if we discussed kibler's article here, the one where he's like "Thoughseize is just your opponent mulligining"? I'm inclined to agree. Not enough to remove the thing, but enough that I wouldn't switch random discard spells to being thoughtseize.


Also: Man do I ever want Student of Elements to work. God that guy is sweet
93b.jpg


Also the more I think about it, the more I'm liking the 2CC walls that can attack. I think it might be the key to giving blue aggro decks game against aggro without just having half their cards basically be hate cards.

I'm liking frostburn weird for this kinda thing, but maybe aquamoeba? I'd love Frilled Oculus if he wasn't 2 colors (Though he probably needs to be)

They almost certainly have to cost 1-2 though. Once we get into crag puca territory, you should be casting this decks MANY 3 drops (serendib, manowar, Kira, wake thrasher etc)
 

CML

Contributor
that was an excellent post! to show my gratitude i will now tear it apart to the best of my abilities.

the Cloudfin thing: so while Delver and devotion are like Hagon and saying smart shit, Delver in cube may not say "jam with THAT many spells," and since we're agreeing "threat-light" doesn't get it done for these decks (something in the hood of 14-16 spells is more realistic) then maybe the dudes get along well. cantripping into more threats to flip and grow your little blue dudes sounds like a great time, I'm gonna try 'em in tandem and see what happens.

Opposition: the divergent experiences with individual cards continue to fascinate me on here as i have never felt anything but "horrible" for playing with or against this card, or including its little brother Glare of Subdual, in any Cube.

Cantrips: I agree that a lighter config is best but for a different reason -- what I found is that all the Blue decks just took a few, so then if i wanted the delver decks to have ~4 i'd have to throw in 15, and then there really wouldn't be any Blue stuff to play (the threat-light problem would extend beyond tempo, even)

Spellheart Chimera: a steaming pile

Oona's Prowler: don't h8, appreci8

Tombstalker: this card only costs 8 in two situations: when they're trying to target it with Abrupt Decay, or when you're flipping it with your Bob

Student of Elements: Wonder?

Mystical Tutor: "not a combo card" hehe http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/96

Suggestions: not to shoot them all down, but are the likes of Spiketail Drakeling really gonna take down Boon Satyr, Silverblade Paladin, Geralf's Messenger, and Countryside Crusher? maybe custom cards are required

tangent: Cube should have a second Vengevine

final grump: Thoughtseize: eh it's cool but there are other 1cmc discard spells that deserve their time too, and really the best way for black to answer PW's is to toss in 4 Gravecrawlers and for the other card types it can add another color or just try to win anyway too. one is really fine, if we're not in love with hella cantrips then why hella hand-rape?


really, though, this is a great start and it further pleases me to read Dom's opposite-direction interpretation of Blue. i'm gonna hold off on slotting the cards until we hammer something out, though -- someone want to try a "second draft"?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
really, though, this is a great start and it further pleases me to read Dom's opposite-direction interpretation of Blue. i'm gonna hold off on slotting the cards until we hammer something out, though -- someone want to try a "second draft"?


i give Chris' recommendations for your cube my full 100% endorsement. It's rare that I agree with someone so strongly, but he wrote out everything I was thinking but am too indifferent to actually type out myself.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
*Cracks Knuckles*
that was an excellent post! to show my gratitude i will now tear it apart to the best of my abilities.

the Cloudfin thing: so while Delver and devotion are like Hagon and saying smart shit, Delver in cube may not say "jam with THAT many spells," and since we're agreeing "threat-light" doesn't get it done for these decks (something in the hood of 14-16 spells is more realistic) then maybe the dudes get along well. cantripping into more threats to flip and grow your little blue dudes sounds like a great time, I'm gonna try 'em in tandem and see what happens.
Suit yourself, but keep this tension in mind. You might be fooling yourself, but you might not.
Opposition: the divergent experiences with individual cards continue to fascinate me on here as i have never felt anything but "horrible" for playing with or against this card, or including its little brother Glare of Subdual, in any Cube.
Suit yourself. Maybe you do need more removal, because when this card is insane, it's usually when there's one guy with 5+ creatures, which doesn't happen often here.
Cantrips: I agree that a lighter config is best but for a different reason -- what I found is that all the Blue decks just took a few, so then if i wanted the delver decks to have ~4 i'd have to throw in 15, and then there really wouldn't be any Blue stuff to play (the threat-light problem would extend beyond tempo, even)
The delver deck should be able to survive with less of these. If delver isn't flipping ever, add threats that also flip delver (Midnight Haunting et Al)
Spellheart Chimera: a steaming pile
I'll agree, but I think you could make him good. Or that a {U}{1} */1 flying might be good.
Oona's Prowler: don't h8, appreci8
I like the idea of the card, and it's fine as a black beater/discard outlet, but I don't run reanimator, so the second draw is kinda...not there :p
Tombstalker: this card only costs 8 in two situations: when they're trying to target it with Abrupt Decay, or when you're flipping it with your Bob
What I mean is that if you have 4 lands and 3 cards in your yard, he's a pain. or if you have 4 cards and one's named gravecrawler. or...
Look he doesn't cost 2 like he does in legacy, alright? :p
Student of Elements: Wonder?
Wonder doesn't beat for 3 on turn 3 :p
Okay so from what I got there was "Mystical Tutor is a combo card". Am I missing something?
Suggestions: not to shoot them all down, but are the likes of Spiketail Drakeling really gonna take down Boon Satyr, Silverblade Paladin, Geralf's Messenger, and Countryside Crusher? maybe custom cards are required
Maybe, but I think spiketail drakeling is a steaming pile, to quote...you. Serendib Efreet certainly has a fighting chance.
tangent: Cube should have a second Vengevine
Correction: Cube should have more vengevine like cards at different costs/sizes. Vengevine isn't a great card to triple up on because it costs 4, which I'm sure you can identify with.
final grump: Thoughtseize: eh it's cool but there are other 1cmc discard spells that deserve their time too, and really the best way for black to answer PW's is to toss in 4 Gravecrawlers and for the other card types it can add another color or just try to win anyway too. one is really fine, if we're not in love with hella cantrips then why hella hand-rape?
Yeah, I kinda agree. 1cc discard is a useful tool, and though thoughseize is the best one, A) that isn't always true, it's pretty bad against mono-red. B) thoughtseize does narrow decisions, since you can take anything. If it were the only 1CC discard in your format (eg: standard) I'd be less cool about it since it's just a brainless card dominating it's category.
It's just a little annoyingly designed. Not enough for me to cut it, but that I might make the switch if a comparable alternative came out that did offer more choice.
really, though, this is a great start and it further pleases me to read Dom's opposite-direction interpretation of Blue. i'm gonna hold off on slotting the cards until we hammer something out, though -- someone want to try a "second draft"?

Wait, do you mean the delver/talrand/favorable winds/nivmagus elemental thing, or the permanent heavy thing? His post contains both (Albiet one more fleshed out than the other)[/quote]
 
Top