Card/Deck Making Delver Work

CML

CML

Contributor
i should link this article http://www.gatheringmagic.com/enabling-blue-based-tempo-or-“blueggro”-in-your-cube/ as both a poor model for a tempo section, and also a valuable resource for illustrating the difficulties of building such a section, as well as some nice card choices.

how about:

cloudfin
cloudfin
delver
delver
judge’s familiar (fu guys this card is pretty good)
coralhelm cmdr
spellstutter sprite
ninja of the deep hours
equilibrium
serendib efreet
pestermite
kira, gg spinner
wonder
daze
psionic blast
izzet charm
edric

edit: just saw your new post! agree strongly on cutting cantrips; if only student of elements also beat for 3 on t3; i am more in the Taylor camp than the Harvey camp right now but the Harvey camp may end up having merit
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I think Spellstutter Sprite is kind of a turd in cube and if you run cards like that you're setting yourself up for failure.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
i'm with ya, even considering Spellstutter is making me depressed about the success of this theme
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Random Notes

What card is flipping Student of the Elements?

Judge's Familiar is a pretty decent card.

Ninja of Deep Hours was always nothing but garbage for me. Shakishima's Student has been the far superior Ninja in my experience because you use him to copy their stupid green monster and make them feel like a tool. If you want to draw cards run curiosity or maybe Bident of Thasa if it turns out to not be awful.

Evasive creatures that aren't trumped by a wall are necessary at all casting costs. Welkin Tern type Cards are important, especially if you are on the Raptor plan. Alternatively, you can load up your other colors with these kinds of cards and poach them (Dauthi Horror, Mistral Charger, etc).

Equilibrium is the real deal for the Raptor Plan.

Mana Vortex is really good, but is seriously a black card. Then again, so is Serendib Efreet which is also hilariously good in this deck.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
FlowerSunRain said:
Random Notes:
What card is flipping Student of the Elements?
Judge's Familiar is a pretty decent card.
Ninja of Deep Hours was always nothing but garbage for me. Shakishima's Student has been the far superior Ninja in my experience because you use him to copy their stupid green monster and make them feel like a tool. If you want to draw cards run curiosity or maybe Bident of Thasa if it turns out to not be awful.
Evasive creatures that aren't trumped by a wall are necessary at all casting costs. Welkin Tern type Cards are important, especially if you are on the Raptor plan. Alternatively, you can load up your other colors with these kinds of cards and poach them (Dauthi Horror, Mistral Charger, etc).
Equilibrium is the real deal for the Raptor Plan.
Mana Vortex is really good, but is seriously a black card. Then again, so is Serendib Efreet which is also hilariously good in this deck.
Click to expand...

-No cards are flipping student, which makes me sad, because I want him to be good. I know he won't be good but he's so cool :(
-My problem with famaliar is that it doesn't really add pressure or add much utility, unlike...every other creature I run. Mother of runes I'd run if it had defender, this I wouldn't. Most of the other creatures attack well, and this doesn't either, really.
-Totally agree on draw ninja and clone ninja.
-Evasive guys still need to be able to block, as we've found out from black (Vampire Interloper). You won't always be the agressor, and you need to be able to switch gears.
-Equilibrium is kinda slow, but sweet when it gets going. It kinda reminds me of crystal shard. I feel like if the trigger doesn't cost mana, it could be sweet, but as it is it's a little clunky. Maybe not enough to be bad.
-Mana Vortex could be okay. Will it get snatched up by that asshole who always drafts crucible to strip mine people out, and gets disappointed when he finds out you don't run strip mine?

Link for those interested:


Also Jason, show the right one:
32.jpg

Beebles!
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Judge's Familiar gets the nod from me because sometimes it gets empyrial armor on it and flies in for the win backed by daze and sometimes it forces them to use single target removal on it just so they can deal with your actually relevant creature(s), but by then you get to untap and laugh at whatever they thought they were going to do.
 
Changling Bob

Changling Bob

What does a cube have to look like for 1 power one drops to not be embarrassing? Is such a cube desirable? [pick your favourite real format] clearly has 1 power one drops and isn't awful, so something is going on here.
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Does [real format] have 1 drop attackers though?
Draft: Mostly unplayable. Mostly they're utilitity creatures, blockers, or undesireable cards (Sanctuary Cat)
Most constructed formats are like cube but more stringent. The exception that comes to mind is doomed traveller, but he's got 2 lives and was kinda loose anyways. Ditto young wolf.

Cube is unlike most WotC Draft formats in that it doesn't have random unplayables like chimney imp or one with nothing. It's closer to constructed, and whens the last time in constructed you saw a 1/1 that was played for it's body? (Shallow I know, but personality isn't winning you any points asphodel wanderer)

I think it's just too small a unit to be wanting usually. Like caring about pennies in big stock trades.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
There is no format in which one power one drops that exist for the purpose of hitting people aren't awful in the history of Magic as far as I am aware. The closest thing I can think of is early goblin decks sometimes included Terrible Creatures, but in actuality they were Burn Spells that could attack. Creatures are much better then they were circa 1994 now, their really isn't any excuse. 1 power just does not give you a decent clock: 2 power is literally twice as fast and when you consider how mana costs scale that twice as fast is way more then twice as powerful.

Also, they can attack into 2 toughness creatures which is relevant.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
eh ... judge's familiar and cloudfin in today's standard, stromkirk noble and champion of the parish and doomed traveler (would not call any of these 'loose' though only traveler was truly a 1/1) last year. as creatures have been hugely pushed the last ~5 years i assume people have been beating down with 1/x's for 1 for time immemorial, but i'm very much with CT that more shit needs the 'piker treatment.'

it's entirely possible that Judge's Familiar is bad in Cube even while being a great Standard card (albeit post-rotation in a single deck) and even a fringe Legacy playable.

i was thinking equilibrium with gravecrawler would be fun but nobody has done it yet
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
CML said:
i assume people have been beating down with 1/x's for 1 for time immemorial
Click to expand...
I assure you they have not.

Zoo decks refer to Red/Green/White Aggro because in early magic, you had to play all three colors to get Kird Ape and Savannah Lions in your deck so that you could legitimately be aggressive because. . . . 1 power 1 drops are useless.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
i thought Zoo became a thing with Nacatl? contemporaneous sligh had goblins of the flarg or whatever so i dunno wtf youre talking about

edit: Zoo is a great name for a Magic deck
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
  • Goblins of the Flarg was played because he got pumped by your king, and enabled goblin grenade, nothing else. HE WAS ALL THEY HAD MAN
  • Cursecatcher is played in legacy because sometimes you lose if you don't have force spike, and he gets pumped by your million kings.
  • Stormkirk Noble and Champion of the Parish actually have 2 power (or more), look closely, as does cloudfin raptor.
  • The only reason judge's familiar/galerider sliver are played in standard right now is Master of Waves, because devotion is a horribly balanced mechanic. Your deffinition of a "great standard card" seems questionable.
  • Secondly: In what steaming pile is judges famaliar seeing play in legacy? Is there some sweet bird tribal deck with 5 lords swaying in the breeze I don't know about? Because I think you mean cursecatcher
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
CML said:
i thought Zoo became a thing with Nacatl? contemporaneous sligh had goblins of the flarg or whatever so i dunno wtf youre talking about

edit: Zoo is a great name for a Magic deck
Click to expand...
The term Zoo comes from the creatures in those early r/g/w decks. Lions, Bears and Apes beating you down.

Chris's Comments about goblins of the flarg is correct. If it attacked once and then got goblin grenade, it was the equivalent of 8 more bolts in your deck. And with king, sometimes it was a 2/2. Anyway, early goblins was analogous to burn, but without enough actual burn cards it used goblins to deliver grenades and bloodlusts

Here is from best recollection circa 1995 Type 1.5 monored Goblin list my dad won a couple tournaments with:

4 Goblin Digging Team
4 Goblins of the Flarg
4 Goblin Balloon Brigade
4 Goblin King
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Blood Lust
2 Ball Lightning
1 Fireball
4 Mishra's Factory
17 Mountains

So yes, there were 1/1s attacking, but no, they weren't good, they were enablers for better cards chosen because there was literally no other option. Also note this deck wasn't even viable until the third bolt (incinerate) was printed and that the red/green version of the deck that cut 4 goblins for 4 kird apes and ran 4 taigas and 4 forests and 0 ball lightning and Scarwood goblinswas probably the superior one.
 
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FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I guess you had to have been there to appreciate it.

Remember all those years of discourse on deck design and game design that have brought us to this point? They didn't exist yet. Type 1.5 in particular was like the Wild West of constructed Magic.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Chris Taylor said:
  • Goblins of the Flarg was played because he got pumped by your king, and enabled goblin grenade, nothing else. HE WAS ALL THEY HAD MAN
  • Cursecatcher is played in legacy because sometimes you lose if you don't have force spike, and he gets pumped by your million kings.
  • Stormkirk Noble and Champion of the Parish actually have 2 power (or more), look closely, as does cloudfin raptor.
  • The only reason judge's familiar/galerider sliver are played in standard right now is Master of Waves, because devotion is a horribly balanced mechanic. Your deffinition of a "great standard card" seems questionable.
  • Secondly: In what steaming pile is judges famaliar seeing play in legacy? Is there some sweet bird tribal deck with 5 lords swaying in the breeze I don't know about? Because I think you mean cursecatcher
Click to expand...

well the bird is a 4-of in the statistically-best standard deck this format, though mainly (only) for the reason you describe. as for the fish, this video may illuminate the difference between cursecatcher and judge's familiar

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgsea-lgc-rd-8-brendan-goold-vs-chris-morris-lent-6575581

also, i have never read any books ever and am incapable of figuring out why a deck with cats and apes would be called "zoo"

snark aside, if we're gonna all fundamentally agree (don't we?) that 1/1's for 1 aren't gonna get it done, and therefore spellstutters and glorified wind drakes won't either, what are we gonna do for our blue critters?
 
anotak

anotak

i mean its pretty nuts in my cube, just replay bloodbraid elf over and over or something, but that's not what this thread is about
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
CML said:
snark aside, if we're gonna all fundamentally agree (don't we?) that 1/1's for 1 aren't gonna get it done, and therefore spellstutters and glorified wind drakes won't either, what are we gonna do for our blue critters?
Click to expand...


Three-power fliers all day long.
 
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