Card/Deck Making Gruul do more than stompy, or make stompy Gruul more interesting?


I can't tell you how well aggro storm gets along with prowess, and you can play that deck in RG as well as in UR or UW. Even RW is a pretty sweet prowess tokens deck.
I think it's essential to double up on some pretty decent cards that fit into a number of decks to make these things work though lol.

Also consider removing the word basic on harvest wurm etc.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
If you are going to approach it with a power maxish point of view, I think gruul is pretty well understood. Its going to be the color of midrange beats, maybe with a little pump thrown in, and some ramp. The most exotic you can get is running some stone rains and plowunders (and thats only good in a more tempo list).

In that higher power world, I don't think a R/G control deck is even feasible (or at least not janky) since its best draw spell is harmonize, and at that point you might as well be in blue.

At lower power I think it has some promise. Creatures in that world tend to fall into range of red sweepers, their is a real reward for breaking theose effects symetical nature by running bigger guys, red spot removal is more effective due to generally smaller body size, and you have access to defacto counters in the form of certain combat tricks.

I kind of like the idea of abzan beastmaster and shamanic revelation there, as they provide card advantage, but do it in a way that is unique and flavorful to gruul. Of course, the power choices are going to be viper, wall of blossoms, and harmonize.
 
Wall of Roots or Wall of Blossoms into Abzan Beastmaster does sound totally fine, I'm curious what kind of creatures would lend itself into enabling abzan beastmaster (just walls and big booty fatties?)
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Basically the whole madness suite works. Mongrel->Beastmaster->Roar of the Worm flashback is pretty solid. Reckless/Arrogant Wurm works here too. Grave value dudes like Deadbridge Goliath is another angle that works. Lotleth troll gives you an alternate discard outlet (but its black. . .) as does Gathan Raiders (but its a 3 drop. . .) and fauna shaman (but it costs a mana to activate. . .). Doubling on mongrel would really help this deck, the curve is clunky otherwise and a turn 1 faithless looting is not always desirable.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
In a pauper/peasent world, 4 toughness is usually pretty high. One of the advantages that R/G has is that it has easy access to a lot of high p/t creatures, as well as guys with trample

So, you can go on your creature focused midrange plan of just being bigger, while at the same time having access to cards that reward you with card advantage, just for being on that plan. The difference between midrange and control is already pretty thin, and here you have the ability to clog the board with big creatures, and crash board stalmates with trample, while refilling your hand by adding big guys to your board.

There is a lot of intersection too with other themes, up to and including Lucre's madness theme. The basic idea (with either of these) is take a G/R midrange deck, and add some sources of card advantage to give the midrange deck a more controlling feeling.

No idea how to do that at higher power level, due to how dominate I would expect blue to be as a source of card draw.
 
RG control is really good in weaker power formats because green and red are decent at giving you stabilizing creatures and the two for one removal is super relevant. Red's sweepers and arc lightnings are among the best control oriented removal available. Green also gives you the ability to cast more than one spell per turn, or use mana sinks like flashback more effectively, while providing ample early value blocking creatures.
 
There is a lot of intersection too with other themes, up to and including Lucre's madness theme. The basic idea (with either of these) is take a G/R midrange deck, and add some sources of card advantage to give the midrange deck a more controlling feeling.

No idea how to do that at higher power level, due to how dominate I would expect blue to be as a source of card draw.

If we suppose that we've left the exciting uncharted design-space of lower powered formats :p), and are back at a regular un-powered cube, maybe then it's still possible to borrow some of this? G/R won't be the control pair, but maybe thats okay, in the same vein we can conclude that while it is possible to make blueggro work it sure does take some insane amounts of work for something people might not even be excited about. Still, there is probably still a chance to take some of the things we've talked about and just use it to make the G/R Midrange deck feel a bit more clever. Potatoes & Steak is a classic for a reason, because it's pretty consistently good as a deck (if we think grim monolith), so why not just try and make an exotic Potatoes & Steak? Throw in some gravy from far away lands and top with german sausages (yum).

If people go with the usual midrange durdle but we plant in secret themes that just comes together by themselves, and some that can be put together if you're looking for them (like that get-lands-throw-them idea from Lucre), we can probably have people end up with decks that they thought was just this obvious and sweet thing but was actually a bit deeper. Just in the same manner that people go "wait these are all humans!" or "hold on, I get so much life from my cards this Pridemate is going to be sick!!". In this way maybe people can end up realizing that at the end of the draft they've got a bunch of high toughness creatures or whatever else we decide upon as our "secret theme"?
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I like the Madness subtheme, but I doubt there's enough meat there to rely on that alone. Flamewake Phoenix is a great new tool for that approach without being poisonous.

RG is typically a bad colour pair for control because you don't have the cheap, unconditional removal available to the other colours or additional disruption in discard/countermagic. You need to either play big things that outclass their creatures and end the game quickly when you create an opening, which tends towards the more midrange RGx Monsters decks you see in Standard, or find ways to easily bring about an insurmountable position - the most common Cube example being Wildfire effects, which aren't popular here but deserve another look.

I would look at Lands:









and Wildfires alongside large creatures or planeswalkers:




to spice up aggro decks, you could focus on haste in particular:



for a lower-powered theme, how about Elementals? The Elemental tribal cards are less narrow than they appear as that tribe is pretty well represented across all the colours.







 
Great post Dom! I totally neglected all the play-from-graveyard cards (like chandras phoenix and vengevine) and I like that list of land themed cards. Less garbage and more punch. Is it possible to run Siesmic Assault as a G/R hybrid? I love the card for a land-toss theme but, it's triple R.

Is it possible to benefit from a lot of hasty creatures? Stuff like self bounce for value.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think if you're running titans, the wildfire sub-theme looks fine.

The reason that I never liked that deck is the path that it takes you down. That type of deck wants non-interctive ramp pieces. If we make the wise decision to not include signets, that means cards like kodama's reach, farseek, harrow, and cultivate.

This tilts green to lean on a non-interactive strategic axis that is more consistent and powerful than whatever else it could be doing. Its like a miniaturized version of the signet problem, but due to the influx of dumb green monsters, and the decks annoying ability to win via sheer clumsy power, the path to it is direct and straight, and it means I can look forward to seeing Timmy draft the same deck week in and week out (though, ironically, probably more G/W than G/R). Green starts to feel homogenized as the non-interactive ramp color.

I think pod is overall the best sub-theme for G/R, since it works so well with red's threaten effects. However, some draft groups are going to feel intimidated by the percieved difficulty of drafting a pod deck.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
How about these guys?



Lumberjack is a powerful ramping effect, puts lands in the yard, pushes people into R/G, and is still vulnerable to bolt. Looks like he should be able to power some kind of nonsense R/G deck.

Greater good adds a powerful attrition mechanic to midrange, works great with threaten effects, has defacto ferocious, and thus is at home in R/G. Also feeds graveyard interactions.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Hmmm, maybe there's something to this signet-less RG Wildfire deck that we've overlooked. I would worry that it would require running a bunch of narrow, poison principle-y cards to be effective, but I suppose a couple of Wildfire effects isn't any more than what it takes to support some other fringe themes.

There are plenty of green creatures that can survive the four damage blast, but aside from Ember Swallower and Thundermaw Hellkite, are there any worthwhile red bodies?
 
Is it all that poisony to run a bunch of ramp and big dudes in red green though? Sounds like it slots into the other stuff we've talked about. I think there is a bigger danger to it being non interactive than anything else.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Good call on the Phoenixes, I'd forgotten all about those! Hanweir Watchkeep is also interesting, though it might be a little sketchy in any deck other than this exact archetype.

I think that while there's a risk of non-creature ramp being non-interactive - and it's certainly closer to a combo archetype than it is to aggro, control, or even midrange - in general, the 'combo' takes so many pieces to put together that it doesn't come close to the efficiency of an actual two or three-card combo. As a ramp player, you have to draw cards from each of the three categories of lands, ramp spells, and payoff bombs, each in the right proportion, but also in the right stage of the game. A topdecked Rampant Growth feels pretty silly on turn nine, whereas a Craterhoof Behemoth in your opener is like a mulligan. Because it takes a while to come together, and often is fighting its own deck as much as the opponent, I'm not sure that green ramp is ever really in danger of being the most powerful deck, and certainly not the most consistent. It takes a truly concerted effort from the format designers, like with the Eldrazi Spawn mechanic and the absence of traditional aggro in Rise of the Eldrazi, before green ramp can be considered a tier 1 archetype.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Havenweir is almost always worse then Tuktuk, which makes it ridiculously low power, but in the brief time I had in my cube it did did minor work in red control builds as wall/win-con. I think you'd have to be going pretty deep to want it, though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
To clarify, what we would run into was less of a "play ramp cards to cast my 8 drop" approach, and more of a "cast ramp spells" to cast my midrange guys ahead of schedule.

Everything that your wrote about the decks problems is correct, but the problem I had with it wasn't so much it being dominate as it being over represented.

Thankfully, there is a gentlemen that can explain what I am trying to say better than I can.

From Ars Arcanum reviewing one of the iterations of the MODO cube.

The elephant in the room is the reanimator and ramp decks. These are the two decks that I frequently hear get called the best decks in the cube, and I paid particular attention to these decks as I analyzed the cube....Second, the ramp decks generally came in two varieties. There are green based ramp decks, which use Elves and Rampant Growth type effects to produce a significant amount of mana, and then cast something incredible like Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. These decks were most often UG, though there were a few versions in all the other colors. The other type was mostly an artifact based ramp deck, which often ended up being mixed with the green decks or put together with a U/x control strategy, either WU or UBr. The Grixis decks had the advantage of also getting Nicol Bolas and Cruel Ultimatum.


However, the reanimator archetype exploits a major flaw in Magic players. Specifically, we have a very hard time distinguishing between things that are powerful and things that win consistently. It really feels good to put a Griselbrand into play on turns two or three and see your opponent concede. However, this only happened in 8 games out of over 500, which is why you see 2 and 6 games ending on turns 2 and 3 in the ending turn chart. In the other cases, a player would often just counter the reanimation spell. Or they would bounce or kill the big guy. While reanimator is a potentially strong strategy, it is often a trap, since players have a hard time realizing that it is actually pretty inconsistent.


Ramp decks did much better. They ended up as 20% of the field, which is the same amount as all of the control decks in the field. It is even pretty close to the number of red decks that were played in the format. Ramp decks also managed a 56% win rate. These were about evenly split between the two different versions; mostly, you just want to play accelerators and cast big things, and it didn’t really matter which version of the deck you were playing. However, these decks have a glaring weakness in that they are particularly vulnerable to counterspells. A well-built, blue-based tempo deck will often play a few powerful threats in the early game, and then they can just sit back and wait for you to play your expensive spells and counter them, leaving you without a significant board presence. Again, this deck seems better than it really is, on account of the fact that Magic players have a very hard time distinguishing between a powerful strategy and a consistent one. But it is a good potential strategy to which you should pay special attention while you are drafting.

So, thats basically what I ran into. Players (especially Timmy) couldn't distinguish between power and consistancy, and would fall into the green ramp trap. It was a good deck, capable of a postitive win rates, but it became over represented because its an archetype that feels powerful. Its all essentially non-interactive plays, from the ramp spells to the fatties that you hope will be good enough to close out the game on their own.

And I think that last sentence really describes the experience: the deck became a real presence in the meta that you couldn't ignore, but you got so tired of it week after week. When I ran 2 wildfire it was worse, because running two in a 360 list meant wildfire showed up relatively often, and actively pushed people into ramp both as wildfire defense and to enable the archetype. This was brutal on the aggro decks, who had to go lower, faster, and less interactive to compete (not unlike modo cubes mono red aggro).

The other two points that he touches upon is how interchangable the strategy is with signets, and how ramp can show up in any color combination. The latter point is probably something to keep in mind when trying to push a R/G deck, since those green ramp cards might size up better in blue or white depending on the format.

Not that I'm saying no one should run wildfire, I'm just basically typing a lot to say why I have a deep loathing for kodama's reach and kitchen finks.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, there's definitely the danger of ramp spells homogenizing an entire format, causing midrange to dominate all of the carefully crafted synergies that you've baked into the format as a cube designer. For all of the supposed archetypes built into Modern Masters, it was telling that the best archetype was 4cc or 5cc 'good stuff', and the best common by far was Kodama's Reach.

I think the general problem is that in cubes where aggro is weak, and midrange is relatively strong, ramp spells further widen the gap between the two decks. Aggro decks have an even tougher time competing if players can consistently land a turn five Inferno Titan, or a turn seven Ulamog, or what have you. I've found that reducing the power of the popular midrange bombs - while leaving the power level intact with the most expensive, high-end bombs - while taking steps to ensure that aggro is a competitive contender in the environment tends to lessen the impact of the ramp strategy. Players trying to power out Pelakka Wurm a few turns early via Farseek and Wall of Roots can still be interacted with by sending lots of little critters to their doorstep.

This seems like a fairly complex issue, actually, that's interconnected with all of the other knobs and levers in a given cube. Other than mono-red, aggro was notoriously bad in the early iterations of the MTGO cube. So when you're left with only control and midrange as viable archetypes, it's not a huge surprise that going bigger than the next guy is the best default strategy. Thankfully, most of our cubes emphasize aggro more heavily, and are less naturally less susceptible to ramp being the de facto king of the hill. As with many other non-interactive strategies, I guess aggro provides the natural checks and balances to your metagame, and helps nip these problems in the bud.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Exactly. Green ramp can really warp a format, its just more localized.

I don't think aggro decks have to be (or even should be) categorized as inheriently non-interactive. Pure fun police aggro, while better than no aggro, is pretty miserable, and the only reason it has to exist is if the midrange or control strategies are completly stifiling, sending aggro down a strategic axis of racing under the control/midrange players setup.

I like it better when aggro decks are more about positioning, carefully setting up for that one big turn, and milking value where they can get it.

I really like the ember swallower suggestion a lot. It seems like breaking singleton on it gives you a wildfire archetype, but with none of the baggage. It also works really well with titania.

Crater and Caldara hellion also seem sweet.
 
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