So what would that package look like? How far off is something like this?
Card/Deck Making Gruul do more than stompy, or make stompy Gruul more interesting?
- Thread starter Rasmus Källqvist
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I was thinking
I really like harrow, because its a very powerful, synergy ramp spell, that can screw you if you play it poorly.
Vines and blessing give you a defense against spot removal, swallower and claws are late game mana sinks. Ferocious and hellions work you towards R/G fat.
Only concern is whether a 4/5 for 4 can pull its weight.
I really like harrow, because its a very powerful, synergy ramp spell, that can screw you if you play it poorly.
Vines and blessing give you a defense against spot removal, swallower and claws are late game mana sinks. Ferocious and hellions work you towards R/G fat.
Only concern is whether a 4/5 for 4 can pull its weight.
I guess it depends on the format, but there's been a certain other 4/5 for 4 thats had a pretty heavy impact. There's a lot of parts in that list that interact really nicely with each other. How good is caldera hellion though? It feels like card that doesn't want there to be too many other creatures with too much toughness in the cube it lives in, yet cards like that are necessary to run this theme in the first place.
Can't you probably fit these cards you talked about earlier? (revelation does feel more elf-ramp than it does landing a single fatty and having it survive armageddon-double pyroclasm)
edit: Some of these were totally mentioned earlier as well. They're creatures that you can abuse the symmetry with or that just sticks around:
Can't you probably fit these cards you talked about earlier? (revelation does feel more elf-ramp than it does landing a single fatty and having it survive armageddon-double pyroclasm)
edit: Some of these were totally mentioned earlier as well. They're creatures that you can abuse the symmetry with or that just sticks around:
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I was kind of pushing the power line with the above list. The beastmaster and revelation I think are going to be too weak at higher power level. The types of list where they would be good, you already have a lot of creative room to explore in G/R.
The reason I was hesistent about ember swallower, was because when you start operating at a higher power level (say titans) you need very good removal to keep powerful threats in check. That generally means that for more pricy creatures to be worth their investment, they need some immediate impact, such as an ETB.
Ember swallower hits a lot of the right notes: mana sink, 5+ toughness body, efficent CC, mass land destruction effect with green ramp, and interactive. Unfortunatly, it dosen't actually do anything (besides block) until you hit 7 mana. In some formats, its not going to be nearly impactful enough initially to be a real card. Thats why I suggested the vines and blessing, as they help address the issue of the deck's flagship threat being easily killed.
You would probably want to have a few more defensive effects to draw upon though: perhaps feat of resistance or gods willing in white, as this deck should be able to splash for them. Is undying evil too crazy?
I have no idea if caldera hellion is good enough. I just think hellions are sweet.
The reason I was hesistent about ember swallower, was because when you start operating at a higher power level (say titans) you need very good removal to keep powerful threats in check. That generally means that for more pricy creatures to be worth their investment, they need some immediate impact, such as an ETB.
Ember swallower hits a lot of the right notes: mana sink, 5+ toughness body, efficent CC, mass land destruction effect with green ramp, and interactive. Unfortunatly, it dosen't actually do anything (besides block) until you hit 7 mana. In some formats, its not going to be nearly impactful enough initially to be a real card. Thats why I suggested the vines and blessing, as they help address the issue of the deck's flagship threat being easily killed.
You would probably want to have a few more defensive effects to draw upon though: perhaps feat of resistance or gods willing in white, as this deck should be able to splash for them. Is undying evil too crazy?
I have no idea if caldera hellion is good enough. I just think hellions are sweet.
I think a bunch of the protection spells can come from stuff like spells matter and pump decks, where I think my favorites are shelter and emerge unscathed. Is it really really worth it to double up on ember swallower though? I feel like having it just being wildfire #2 helps mitigate some of the problems with doubling up on wildfire (with it showing up maybe a little too often). The only real cost I think is those 2 slots you commit for the wildfire signature cards, the rest is just ramp and some resilient creatures that go into pretty much any other deck as well.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
It depends on the format power level. I think ember swallower is the more interesting card, but in a format revolving around cards like swords to plowshares, path to exile, grave titan, thragtusk, and restoration angel, its terrible. In that case, you should run double harrow, double wildfire, and probably trim down on the green and white protection effects. In that world, your issues are going to be dominant midrange threats and stagnant aggro. Birthing pod is probably the easiest fit for a G/R subtheme, though it has its own problems depending on your playgroup and creature power creep. That would at least give you two titan power level G/R sub themes.
On the other hand, if we are in a deadbridge goliath, greater gargadon, arbor colossus, murderous redcap world, there is probably enough breathing room for an ember swallower based deck to thrive. It would essentially be a solid G/R monsters deck, but with the added spice of ramping up to a powerful mana denial plan.
You just can't be in a format where your 4-6cc midrange fatties have to be clearly better than ember swallower due to removal/threat power level. At that point its better to just jam a thragtusk or thundermaw and win.
On the other hand, if we are in a deadbridge goliath, greater gargadon, arbor colossus, murderous redcap world, there is probably enough breathing room for an ember swallower based deck to thrive. It would essentially be a solid G/R monsters deck, but with the added spice of ramping up to a powerful mana denial plan.
You just can't be in a format where your 4-6cc midrange fatties have to be clearly better than ember swallower due to removal/threat power level. At that point its better to just jam a thragtusk or thundermaw and win.
I'm still primarily in a brewing phase so I can't give any relevant input based on my own experience with cube designs in play (I've only played others), but I can see how ember swallower quickly could get lackluster.
If we remain in titanland, then, what makes pod decks a GR thing? Like what becomes the incentive to move into red after picking a birds of paradise and a pod?
If we remain in titanland, then, what makes pod decks a GR thing? Like what becomes the incentive to move into red after picking a birds of paradise and a pod?
Gruul can work as control in an artifact-heavy environment.
Does Ember Swallower really achieve what you guys are looking for? Has anyone had experience with a mini-wildfire (sans damage) on 7 mana being an effective or reliable play?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
He's really bad
It's a shame 5 toughness is such a tall order on cards that cost less than 6. Most of the best target are actually green, notably polukranos, and thundermaw being a bit of an exception to the rule.
anyways, as probably the only guy who runs wildfire, you don't need 5 toughness fatties. Having Walkers in play is fine, having lands left over is fine. It has its uses as a wrath that pressures the opposing landbase a bit, and I've definitely cast it when my opponent had 6 lands left afterwards. It's a nice sweeper that isn't Pyroclasm levels of insane/horrible
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Being able to steal a creature and pod it. Combine that with a few good targets to pod into play (huntmaster) and its a pretty fun deck. You kind of need a good density of threaten effects (and pods) for it to come together reliably though.
So it kind of expands on the red-black theme of steal-and-sac? How many threatens is enough for that to come together once in a while? 3? 4? I know they help other themes, like the double strike ones , but there's gotta be a pretty fine balance between the right amount and just too many.
I wonder how Ember Swallower would've felt like if it was monstrous RR4: sac 3 lands deal 3 damage to all creatures?
I will say that I've run Ember Swallower before, and can't really picture doubling up on him, even in lower power environments. Besides being a somewhat clunky four drop that needs a few turns after that to actually be effective, he's also essentially a Gruul-only card, making him narrower than his mana cost might suggest. Doubling up on the actual card Wildfire might be more conducive to this archetype's success.
I really like the idea of a lands theme, though, so I think I'm going to cross it over with the land destruction theme for my next update. I don't really expect it to be very good, but it will at least give people an incentive to go into the colour pair. Personally, I've almost never gone Gruul in the years I've been drafting my own list, and adding a fun Timmy griefer theme should at least open the door to the possibility. The archetype will still be very much a midrange deck, but at least it won't be the boring Kitchen Finks into Huntmaster of the Fells into Thragtusk into Inferno Titan kind of midrange that tends to make for lacklustre gameplay.
Something like
Along with the usual assortment of ways to scrounge up lands
I really like the idea of a lands theme, though, so I think I'm going to cross it over with the land destruction theme for my next update. I don't really expect it to be very good, but it will at least give people an incentive to go into the colour pair. Personally, I've almost never gone Gruul in the years I've been drafting my own list, and adding a fun Timmy griefer theme should at least open the door to the possibility. The archetype will still be very much a midrange deck, but at least it won't be the boring Kitchen Finks into Huntmaster of the Fells into Thragtusk into Inferno Titan kind of midrange that tends to make for lacklustre gameplay.
Something like
Along with the usual assortment of ways to scrounge up lands
I've seen more people mention it now, is Edge of Autumn really a card? Is it that its just a basic-forest fetching farseek?
It's essentially a Rampant Growth that does the same job while in your opener, but isn't horrible to topdeck on turn ten, unlike every other ramp spell. Utility both early and late.
I would rank the cubeable two-drop green ramp spells as
Farseek
Wall of Roots
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Edge of Autumn
Sylvan Caryatid
Explore
Lotus Cobra
Rampant Growth
edit: oh god i forgot explore
I would rank the cubeable two-drop green ramp spells as
Farseek
Wall of Roots
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Edge of Autumn
Sylvan Caryatid
Explore
Lotus Cobra
Rampant Growth
edit: oh god i forgot explore
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I like Edge of Autumn, but have only cast it a couple times. Looking forward to seeing where this lands theme goes. What about that creature that makes 5/3s?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I really like threaten effects in general. I usually run about seven of them, between blue (ray of command) and red. The initial reason was that it provides red decks way a way to temporarly remove blockers while increasing their clock. I've also found them to be really fun check cards against ramp and reanimator decks.
I don't think you need to run that many though. The key (higher power) card is Zealous conscripts which is a really strong R/G pod card, since you can pod it up, use it to untap pod, hit for three, and than pod again. Or steal a creature and pod it. Kiki jiki also loves pod, if you are willing to go there.
If you are looking for just sac and steal, you can run the basic 3 mana sorcery varieties. However, if you can go up to 4 mana (probably more viable at lower power level), you gain access to some really interesting threatens that can target any creature at instant speed, allowing you to set ambushes, force certain creatures to untap, blank tap removal, fog a turn by stealing the attacker, or forcing the opponent to block their attacker with one of their own creatures. Just really interesting interactions.
At higher power levels you can also run vedalken shackles, which is great with pod.
I'll concede that Edge of Autumn is really bad midgame, i.e. when you have five or six lands but still want more. It makes up for that by being a sweet topdeck lategame, though, and is every bit as good as Rampant Growth in your opener or in your first couple of draw steps. It's almost like an anti-miracle for several turns in your game, but I think that's a fair price to pay for its flexibility.
Yeah, Titania seems awesome with Wildfire shenanigans. Whenever I make my next singles purchase, she's going straight into the list.
Yeah, Titania seems awesome with Wildfire shenanigans. Whenever I make my next singles purchase, she's going straight into the list.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
On a related note, Edge of Autumn is strong with Titania.
This is looking more and more like a card that could work in both RG Wildfire and in BG graveyard shenanigans. I don't like that it's four mana, but I love that it's instant. Maybe it's not so crazy after all.
p
I've played it in draft and its good with delve still. Probably a mana too expensive for cube and restricting to creature return is pretty restrictive.
I've played it in draft and its good with delve still. Probably a mana too expensive for cube and restricting to creature return is pretty restrictive.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Sudden Reclamation feels like one of those cards that isn't good enough but which make me want to lower my power level to change that.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
It is kind of disappointing that after several pages of higher power brewing, we end up back at the old stand-byes of wildfire and pod.
Nah, I think we just ended up back here again because of covering all bases. I concur with Wadell about seeing if we can do more with the lands-theme. Lands work great with Titania and Wildfire, so there's potential for some wider coverage. The crux is wheter or not lands is good enough in high power? I'm assuming higher power is where the biggest question marks are because in lower power we've already mentioned some themes that looked exciting. Also I still wanna see if there can be more to that hast-creature theme than just the speed of it. Like, whenever a creature ETBs something something