Card/Deck Making Gruul do more than stompy, or make stompy Gruul more interesting?

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I wonder if the deck being named 'fires' unfairly puts the focus on that card. It's certainly gravy but perhaps more useful to look at

The consistency of 8 mana dorks
Hard to deal with threats (chimeric idol, blastoderm, saproling burst)
Answers that are also threats (ftk, assault/battery, thornscape battlemage)
Ways to use excess mana (dust bowl)
Focus on curve.

These all lead to a focused, aggressive, proactive deck where the opponent is almost always on the back foot. Giving things haste just makes it that much worse for them and less time to defend appropriately. I think you might want to try to represent all these themes if you're looking to try to replicate something similar.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

On a side note I miss saproling burst in my cube. Took it out when purphanos went in. Man does that card require some safety valve cuts. I like the inevitability with it but have been cutting things that make three or more tokens as a result.

 

[Eric Chan]

Personally, I feel like this does the best Fires impression in cube, as midrange decks aren't usually playing more than one beefy creature a turn anyways

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I did a quick gatherer search for higher power cards that are solid but become much better with fires in play, it only turned up a few, unimpressive results.

There is curse of predation, kessig cagebreakers (which actually becomes much better wtih haste, but isn't a gruul card), flamerush rider (but already has dash at least), and alesha, who smiles at death. You also have way too expensive cards like ulamog's crusher, and that new dragon that gives dragons double strike whenever it attacks.

Given that, its probably not surprising that fires hasn't really made it: its not enabled any sort of sweet value curve.

 

[GenericZero]

I think I'd be fine with allowing R/G to just be either the big aggro or creature-based midrange deck. Mainly cuz I personally love cards like Huntmaster and the new Atarka. I think Fires themes would work much better if there was a Fires of Yavimaya on a stick in R/G. I mean a 3/3 for 3 that grants haste in those colors feels normal. Allowing it to sacrifice itself for a free pump spell is fine as well.

 

[Eric Chan]

This is probably the closest thing to "Fires on a stick", but I'm not sure if it meets the bar

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, I've been saying the same thing, but thats a boring route to go down.

Randy's description when going over the deck helps explain why the upset occured. The creatures being run in the deck just work very well with haste. Flametongue kavu is a strong card, but becomes much better when you can blow up a dude and than swing for 4. Blastoderm goes from leaving the opponent at 5, to killing them, and saproling burst represents a lot more damage the turn you resolve it.

And thats basically my question, is something like fires of yavimaya a bad cube card, or has it just not had the right creatures to syngerize with? Because if its the latter, it seems like a potentially easy tweek, that could add an interesting subtheme to the normal beatdown plan.

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

This is probably the closest thing to "Fires on a stick", but I'm not sure if it meets the bar

Cough, fires on a stick, cough

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

Yeah, I've been saying the same thing, but thats a boring route to go down.

Randy's description when going over the deck helps explain why the upset occured. The creatures being run in the deck just work very well with haste. Flametongue kavu is a strong card, but becomes much better when you can blow up a dude and than swing for 4. Blastoderm goes from leaving the opponent at 5, to killing them, and saproling burst represents a lot more damage the turn you resolve it.

And thats basically my question, is something like fires of yavimaya a bad cube card, or has it just not had the right creatures to syngerize with? Because if its the latter, it seems like a potentially easy tweek, that could add an interesting subtheme to the normal beatdown plan.

I'm not convinced that its fires that is the problem. The fires deck was still good when it didn't draw fires, just explosive with it.

But to answer your question, I would still be happy, going elf, fires, polukranos or deadbridge Goliath. I think it might be a consistency thing in limited that's the issue?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think what you would want would be a design running those sorts of haste effects, ramp, and than some G/R guys that are good but better with haste for whatever reason (tap activated abilities, attack triggers, fade counters, 187 ETBs). Fires of yavimaya gets a gold slot to suggest people try that type of deck, and when they do, they have a positive experience, because its a solid midrange deck that becomes super charged with fires.

Than you have your elves, of course, to break curve, which fires really capitalizes on.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Is there a possibility to split it up into on one side, red haste-granters and green creatures benefiting from haste? A peculiar criteria for cards I think since most benefit from haste, but it could maybe help make a fires of yavimaya non-theme without giving up a gold slot.

Edit: of course, with the theme being there with stuff like hammer, lightning greaves and lightning mauler you can probably have a justification for running a somewhat nice card. I might get sold on it as a "stompy gruul but interesting" card

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, I mean, the only reason I am thinking of running fires of yavimaya, is to sort of suggest that people try the theme in Gruul. With themes like this, there is the real danger that some other color will pick up the pieces and just be better with it. However, if haste ends up becoming popular in G/R, you can always cut the fires later, if you don't feel its worth the slot.

Sort of the prime candidate for this theme would be something like a gruul version of this guy:



Great card. Wins games, but its big weakness is that you have to untap and attack with it to get that triggered ability. However, it becomes much better with haste: almost like a combo card.

Curse of predation is another strong card, which becomes even better with universal haste (and could support some sort of weird G/R token theme, which G/W will inevitably hijack).

And thats kind of what I am thinking: the 2015 version of the saproling burst effect. That way when someone plays fires for the the first time (hopefully on turn 2), they can look at their hand, and feel great.

Plus, I do think there is the potential for a real strategy here, and not just a gimmick. Universal haste+elf ramp seems like a strong tempo game in general, allowing for explosive openers.

 

[James Stevenson]

So...after watching Fires beat jund...

I don't think Randy played this well, could have been different.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

So these I think are our haste-granters that we can agree on? What 3+ idiots benefits a lot from haste? kessig cagebreakers, wolfir silverheart, polukranos(maybe but not really? Its just a fatty but you get the point)

 

[Karl]

Without going to far over the curve these creatures seems solid in the Fire builds.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Thing that fade, things with low toughness, things with an attack trigger, things that are an army in a can, things with activated tap abilities. I don't know that you would want to cube all of the following, depending on your cube's power level (both high and low), but here are some suggestions (including some already given).

 

[Eric Chan]

Not to sidetrack too much from the Fires discussion going on, but after a pile of mock drafts of my own list on CubeTutor where I forced the Gruul archetype, I've come to the conclusion that the weakest card in the Wildfire archetype is... Wildfire. It's just not a card that I see myself taking over any a) cheap spot removal spell, b) two or three-mana sweeper, c) ramp card, d) mid-sized fatty, or e) land destruction-on-a-stick, a la Acidic Slime. That leaves very few cards I'd take it over, and means I wouldn't pick it up unless it comes back around to me 14th pick.

I honestly think both of these are better than actual Wildfire, at this point



I mean, destroying four lands is the dream, but honestly just nuking a midrange or control opponent's best land can set them back pretty far. As dumb as it sounds, I think the Wildfire theme is better off and more realistic to assemble as midrange Gruul Ponza.

Okay. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming!

 

[anotak]

i'm putting in a vote for kalonian hydra being boring as hell

 

[Karl]

I'd have to disagree, Wildfire for me anyway is usually the best card in the deck. Sure you have to go through a hoop or two to really get the best value (Walker or x/5 out), but you are rewarded with winning the game 90% after that resolution.

Hydra does have lots of nice synergies. Imperial recruiter, counters matter, reveilark, haste granters. His not a super techy dude, but for a gruul deck you don't really want that on a 5 drop. You kinda just want a guy to finish of the game.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I agree that Wildfire is fantastic when you're slightly ahead, because it turns that tenuous advantage into a dominant position. I just don't like cards that are only good when you're already winning, even if they cement your board state, because they don't help you get into that position in the first place, nor do they turn a losing situation around. I tend to value cards that are good in all scenarios much more highly during the actual draft portion, and try to pick up the Wildfires of the world on the wheel. However, that means if I see a Wildfire eighth pick, there's a good chance I'll want the versatile removal spell or cheap ramp spell in the same pack, and won't get a second opportunity to nab the Wildfire.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Wow does crater hellion look amazing with haste.

 

[Karl]

I suppose ultimately it will depend heavily on your cube compsition. If you are able to ramp with artifact mana instead of Rampant Growths you can afford to wrath the board and Armageddon whilst keeping your rocks about.

Wow does crater hellion look amazing with haste.

That guy is just a straight swag lord. A HUGE fan. His awesome in the wildfire decks.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Primeval titan also looks perfect. +4 lands and 6 fires fueled trampling damage, swinging in on a creature that pushes people into ramp cards already seems great. Also really like keldon marauders, since fires makes it less of a narrow burn card.

I think for haste enablers, fires, hammer, and mauler are the three best. Some people might have issues with the shroud on lightning greaves, and it dosen't really push people into exactly R/G. Generator servant is a cool card, but isn't as consistent as the other cards.

Deranged hermit looks like a huge beating. Wolfir silverheart gets a lot scarier as well.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

A note when taking this theme into a more army in a can direction is to keep the number of non GR army in a cans at a lower number, or else I think there'll be some clogged boards. It also helps keep people in GR when drafting the deck! (edit: let's not neglect the potatoes'n'steak value king huntmaster of the fells!)

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think the selection of creatures is there, the biggest problem the archetype has, i.m.o, is never coming together, since we are only really taking about 2 good mass hasters, and 1 psudo mass haster. Their just isn't a density of the effect. I might run 3 fires for a few weeks, just to establish the deck, and than scale back.