Sets (MoM) April of the Machines Previews

I mean, Learn actually saw a bit of play in Standard. It's just that it was pretty weak power-level wise (so it didn't break into eternal formats), can't be used at all in Commander (because it has a "no wishes" rule), and fits kinda awkwardly into Cube. I also think it's a little unfair to lump it in with a bunch of other mechanics that add overhead to the game, because it's not like wishes are a new concept in Magic.

That's fair. I just never liked them from the jump and always found them to be clunky in implementation. Wishes being more open-ended never really bothered me (to be fair, it's also before my time), but tying in this mechanic to lesson cards as the only target(s) made it far less appealing to me. At least wishes can actually get good cards ala Karn wishboard, but lessons are just so unimpressive and weak that I never had any interest in messing with them from the jump. Strixhaven was just a big miss all around for me so I definitely wasn't the target audience for this.
I feel like a lot of this comes down to the need to still needing to come up with a 2-3 new mechanics for every set (like they've always done) without the block structure slowing down the accumulation of new mechanics. Which... can I complain about the rate we get new mechanics for a moment?

The two Standards Scars of Mirrodin block was part of had fifteen and thirteen new mechanics respectively, with each block contributing six-ish new mechanics (Zendikar had some extras because I'm being generous and calling quest enchantments/multikicker/traps "new mechanics"), with both standards collectively having twenty-two new mechanics to learn, with the big ones getting 2-3 sets to develop.

Current Standard has something like thirty novel mechanics, depending on how you count them. If we stretch a little and count returning mechanics, the two older Standards get two extra mechanics each (kicker + imprint and imprint + flashback), while current Standard balloons up to forty-ish. That's a lot of complexity to keep up with.

The reason why older blocks accumulated new mechanics more slowly is that they were essentially just one big "main" set with a couple of smaller expansion packs that extrapolated on the stuff it introduced (both mechanically and lore-wise), with there only being a handful of exceptions (Innistrad, Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, Ravnica, Tarkir, and Zendikar — yes, Scars just so happened to be flanked by two of the five "bigger" sets). If you had a major new (or returning) ability or keyword (or frame! Innistrad added double-sided cards to the game), it'd be in roughly half of the sets in Standard.

Contrast that with the current design regime, where non-evergreen/deciduous stuff generally shows up in one set, with there being a couple of exceptions (the two Innistrad sets were an unofficial two-set block and had some extra overlap, while Powerstones were hinted at in Dominaria United and focused on in Brother's War). It honestly almost feels like the design team is consciously choosing to not repeat any returning mechanics until a set that used it rotates. Like, am I the only one who thought it was a little too neat and tidy that we got kicker in Zendikar Rising and then got it again in the first set after ZKR rotated?

Yeah, this is definitely a problem in that new mechanics just don't have the depth necessary to be worth exploration most of the time.

Variants of kicker or things that deal with +1/+1 counters like Backup are easy enough to integrate with pre-existing cards, but there are a hell of a lot of cards nowadays that are printed to mention one off mechanics that make them awkward for inclusion outside of a dedicated Limited or Standard environment. There's just not enough room for these mechanics to breathe and really make them feel special. Like Streets of New Capenna was from a year back and I can't recall the majority of mechanics in that set off the top of my head despite having 3-4 cards from the set in my cube.
 
Like if tomorrow, this gets spoiled:


That card is great! That's a lovely burn spell with great gameplay effects! I'd cut magma jet for that anyday (And not just because 3 > 2, I also like scry 1 over scry 2, less fiddly)
So basically Jaya's Greeting?

Sorry I don't cube planeswalkers because my playgroup never liked their gameplay.
 
lessons are just so unimpressive and weak that I never had any interest in messing with them from the jump

Honestly, it would've been the perfect time to introduce the "forbidden" mechanic that they toyed with in Avacyn Restored — make it so Lessons were good spells that you couldn't include in your library, meaning that you had to tutor them up with spells that let you Learn a Lesson.

...

I don't think that the problem is that mechanics don't have depth, it's that the designers don't get much of a chance to iterate on them. There's also a weird distribution of "cleverness", for lack of a better term — some mechanics (like Decayed Zombie tokens) pretty much only got cutesy designs, while others (like Enlist) only got a couple of cards that went beyond "french vanilla with set mechanic" level of design.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Hard to say without playing a single game with the cards yet but I'm excited for Battles - they seem like they unlock the good parts of planeswalkers (incentives to play more creatures and care more about how those creatures engage in combat) while avoiding the bad parts and they give you a cool sub-quest to work towards
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Do you not think that this is due to a plethora of mechanics that have looked to "expand" gameplay in recent years that have failed?

[...]

Learn? Mediocre mechanic overall and has virtually disappeared by not finding a long-time home in older formats or most cubes. Mostly low power level, but also leads to weird despite how much talk there was around here upon release. I don't think we'll be revisiting this anytime soon.
Yo, don't diss my homie learn! There's nothing inherently mediocre about it, it's just that they were very conservative with the power level of these cards. It also reads weaker than it actually is. I love that you have the smoothing loot mechanic as a backup option if you don't want to get a lesson. I very much hope they'll revisit this mechanic in the near future to round out the options!

Also, I don't exactly know what your definition of "gameplay expanding" "mechanics" is, but both vehicles and the bonus sheet (e.g. Strixhaven Archives and Brother's War retro artifacts) are relatively new and interesting additions to the game, I think. Saga's offer super sweet design space as well.
 
That comment read less like "avoiding complexity for new players is uncool" and more like "hoping for the failure of an entire card type and all cards that mention it is uncool."
If that's the case then I agree!

I like the comparison made to planeswalker. The implementation of battles also reminded me of Saga's: not necessarily a new card type, but very close to one. They were quite numerous in Dominaria and referenced throughout the set with Historic. But they were not stapled onto DFC, like the battles are now. It feels like they went the Saga route but immediately jumped to their complexity in NEO. That complexity jump is a little too high for my taste.

I'm really hyped for MOM, and the battles are a major reason why. I think their play patterns are like a more fun planeswalker variant. I also hope that WOTC will at least try a battle variant without a DFC pasted on, even if this Siege variant flops.
 
Hm, too bad they didn't make battles that say "when this battle is defeated, sacrifice it and do X". I think that would've made me like them much more, now they have to flip before they can give you the reward.
 

landofMordor

Administrator
People usually don't react well to change, but it's tiring and old by now.
me reading this whole thread:
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Train's comment got me thinking a little more broadly, though, because honestly, interacting with this forum post has been an overall negative experience every time I log in, and I'm picking up that I'm not the only person who feels that way...



Look, I probably won't run many Battles, either. I didn't love the MOM story. And, most of all... Chrome Host Seedshark's art makes me uncomfortable.

But when spoiler threads verge on "free rein to whine" threads, it sucks any fun out of discussing Magic with this community.

I'm not saying we've all gotta force a smile and enthusiastically endorse everything WotC does. I'm saying that Riptide's primary purpose is not for us to freely express ourselves on Battles or Seedshark art (that's what Twitter is for ;)). Riptide exists only so that Magic players can grow and learn from each other. When that stops happening, Riptide stops existing. For growth and learning to happen, comments should largely be characterized by genuine curiosity about other forum members -- not negativity about the cards, not ammo-gathering for a witty clapback, and not the monopolized discourse better left for blog posts.

We need to focus on the soul of Riptide -- relationships with our fellow forum members -- more than we focus on WotC's creative decisions. If a non-Magic friend would look at our computer screen and say, "you want some cheese to go with that whine?", then we need to rewrite our comment or keep it to ourselves.


Idk, I know this comment is major scope creep, haha, but I figured it's better to veer off-topic if the topic is so discouraging. Maybe it's worth a separate post elsewhere, especially if people agree that this kind of discussion would improve their experience with Riptide.
 
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Chris Taylor

Contributor
So basically Jaya's Greeting?

Sorry I don't cube planeswalkers because my playgroup never liked their gameplay.
NGL, yes! I was excited about the difference between Obliterating Bolt and Lava coil, I'd be excited about this

Sidebar:
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Pettiest possible complaint: why does the tap ability say "another"? It's a tap ability :p

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1G, draw a permanent from the top 5 seems interesting. Excess doesn't go to the graveyard, but this digs deep and grabbing so many card types is notable!
That said, I don't love the backside. This looks priced to move, 4 defense is suitably low, but a 4/3 with prowess:indestructible is kinda worse in both ways.
I forsee the backside either just dying because it's only got 3 toughness and (probably) isn't protected the turn it comes down OR accidentally blanking your opponent's entire hand.

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Honestly, the front side is pretty middling here. The defense is a nice low number, but 3 mana, doesn't affect the board... it's okay and I don't think mill moves the needle on the front. It makes the card better, but it doesn't change the card.

The back however! Love this kind of effect. Bringing back any graveyard is sweet, setting the creature to 4/4 means it's a lot less dead than most reanimation (with the possibility for extra bonuses like hitting a lifelinker or double striker etc)
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
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1G, draw a permanent from the top 5 seems interesting. Excess doesn't go to the graveyard, but this digs deep and grabbing so many card types is notable!
That said, I don't love the backside. This looks priced to move, 4 defense is suitably low, but a 4/3 with prowess:indestructible is kinda worse in both ways.
I forsee the backside either just dying because it's only got 3 toughness and (probably) isn't protected the turn it comes down OR accidentally blanking your opponent's entire hand.
The "prowess" triggers on any spell though! Casting a Llanowar Elves makes this just as indestructible as Ranpant Growth does! ;)
 
The great thing about being a cube designer is we can easily shelter overselves from complexity creep, manic release schedules, and half-baked mechanics if we want to. I get to make my environment the version of magic that most appeals to me and my playgroup. I’m fine with a set being a dud for my cube. Less cards to buy! One thing wizards has made abundantly clear is there will be no shortage of new cards coming, and some of them will inevitably appeal to my sensibilities.

I definitely understand and share frustration with some recent trends, but agree that we could be a bit more positive here.
 
Counterpoint to landofMordor: When have we ever stayed on topic in a thread that wasn't discussing a particular cube topic? No, seriously, the LotR set preview thread turned into a book suggestion thread for crying out loud. That's just how we do things around here.

In other words: if you want to get us off the topic of complaining about WotC's design priorities and how they've shifted over time (with a bonus post at some point about how we can take the lessons of old block design and apply them to cube design coming at some point when I have the mental energy of a human being and not a potato), just dangle something else in front of us and change the subject. That kind of eclectic, free-wheeling conversation style is kinda how we do stuff around here.

As for the "think: would your non-magic friends think you're being too whiny?" thing... you are wildly underestimating how much my friends and I like complaining to each-other about our (often-times non-shared) hobbies. It's basically our favorite thing. :p

(Side note: I dunno if this is a language barrier thing or not, because I'm not really sure about what everyone's native language is, but in my variety of English "whining" is a word that's basically only used when talking about children or adults acting like spoiled children. As a result, your post came off as weirdly aggressive/insulting to me, which I'm pretty sure wasn't the intent.)

...

Now that we've gotten to the fabled three layers of complaining (I think that was a complaint about a complaint about complaining? What a time to be alive!), let's talk about cards:

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I like how flexible this is. The "sac outlet" Backup cards have been fun designs so far. It's a shame that it doesn't fit into any of my current projects, but that might change in the future.
 
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Sac cards that don't suck!! This looks like a fun middle ground.

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Mmm, green cantrips. This is almost Mental Note+? I'm always a fan of colors other than blue getting these options, and now it seems like green has half a dozen good options to choose from. Edit: Masterful Ninja'd.


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Now THAT'S a Baneslayer/Mulldrifter hybrid and a reanimation enabler and payoff all at once! Big fan of this cute, chonky little fellow--he gives me big Dragon Tales vibes.

All in all, the back half of spoiler season is looking great!
 
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Sac cards that don't suck!! This looks like a fun middle ground.

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Mmm, green cantrips. This is almost Mental Note+? I'm always a fan of colors other than blue getting these options, and now it seems like green has half a dozen good options to choose from. Edit: Masterful Ninja'd.


View attachment 8178

Now THAT'S a Baneslayer/Mulldrifter hybrid and a reanimation enabler and payoff all at once! Big fan of this dragon, and he's cute/chonky too.

All in all, the back half of spoiler season is looking great!
the green cantrip is one of my all-set favs, really nice design, i like it quite a bit for Jund or related value midrange piles
 
Death-Greeter Champion and Chivalric Alliance are great.

Another Commander design that I actually really like is:

exsanguinatorcavalry.jpg


Look at this little guy. It's his birthday, and he decided his present was going to be a crossover between all of the different Vampire things.
 
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