Yeah, I agree. Verdict is still out on the Precursor for me, but Soultrader is a boss. The non-token stipulation is obviously necessary, but really hinders it's flexibility....add to that you need a sac outlet and things to sacrifice. It feels like a little too much to jump through for 3 mana. Soultrader just clicks though. I underestimated it on first glance.
Nanonox's 1vs1 cube
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Yeah, I agree. Verdict is still out on the Precursor for me, but Soultrader is a boss. The non-token stipulation is obviously necessary, but really hinders it's flexibility....add to that you need a sac outlet and things to sacrifice. It feels like a little too much to jump through for 3 mana. Soultrader just clicks though. I underestimated it on first glance.
Weird MH3 cards
Speaking of underestimating, I am thinking that I didn't give Six the correct amount of thought for a card that does so much.
Single Green pip, 2/4 body and reach is a very solid baseline. I don't love creatures having such a big butt, but at three mana, it's not as egregious as at 2 mana.
I don't know the math on his attack trigger, but milling 3 is generally upside whether you hit a land or not. But that isn't the exciting part.
The last ability is a discard outlet and recurs permanents, how can we abuse it?
First off, it triggers Inti, Seneschal of the Sun and The Raven Man, which is pretty rare in Green. Then single card interactions:
You could discard excess lands to recur the Bauble and up the Storm count?
I could see myself trading lands for pitch elementals to clear the board. You would need some solid Wheel action to keep the cards flowing though!
Once you've milled yourself out, Six is a convenient way to recur the Oracle for the win.
This is a good one to return to hand in case you got disrupted or you fizzled.
Give all your lands Cycling pay 2 life?
I feel like I am missing some cool synergies, what do you folks have as cool Six combos?
In the same vein, The Necrobloom's dredge ability seems like it should be abuseable. Just not sure what to do with it really.
Simulacrum Synthesizer support
Gideon of the Trials -> Steel Seraph
Decided to try this swap as Gideon is pretty narrow in the decks that want him (mostly control decks) and the Angel has nice blink and artifact synergies which are more prevalent.
I don't have many Azorius cards I love, so I am ok with trying stuff out. Paying 3 mana for the effect is too much in this cube, but being an artifact is serious upside. I have a tough time evaluating the equip ability. Are you usually upgrading the equipped creature or downgrading it? You also don't have to equip and it can just be a removal spell.
Crime?
These three creatures have me pretty excited to reconsider the Crime "mechanic". I could see them do work in tempo or control decks that tend to run more interaction than other decks. I counted 18 ways to commit crimes in Blue and Black and 14 in Red.
Duelist: I've been liking the draw 7 "combo" with Psychic Frog and some redundancy wouldn't be bad. Counterspells can ensure that you loot on opponent's turn and bounce can clear blockers for big damage.
Kaervek: Doubling up on cheap Black spells can be a great way to pull ahead. This can do a good Snapcaster Mage impression. Fatal Push something, commit a crime and cast it again. Same thing with Duress. Dark Ritual is a great one to get back and so are a lot of 1-2 mana value creatures. I saw Erik use this one and I think it has potential!
Magda: I’m less sold with Magda, mostly because I don’t actually have that many treasure producers. 3 treasures for a token is a good rate though and it would be decent in non-Green decks. It has less explosive potential than the Duelist and less grindy value than Kaervek. This means it’s probably not a good enough piece for the cube.
I would probably cut Malcolm, Alluring Scoundrel for the Duelist and Woe Strider for Kaervek. Malcolm is just ok and I have a lot of sacrifice support with MH3
Speaking of underestimating, I am thinking that I didn't give Six the correct amount of thought for a card that does so much.
Single Green pip, 2/4 body and reach is a very solid baseline. I don't love creatures having such a big butt, but at three mana, it's not as egregious as at 2 mana.
I don't know the math on his attack trigger, but milling 3 is generally upside whether you hit a land or not. But that isn't the exciting part.
The last ability is a discard outlet and recurs permanents, how can we abuse it?
First off, it triggers Inti, Seneschal of the Sun and The Raven Man, which is pretty rare in Green. Then single card interactions:
You could discard excess lands to recur the Bauble and up the Storm count?
I could see myself trading lands for pitch elementals to clear the board. You would need some solid Wheel action to keep the cards flowing though!
Once you've milled yourself out, Six is a convenient way to recur the Oracle for the win.
This is a good one to return to hand in case you got disrupted or you fizzled.
Give all your lands Cycling pay 2 life?
I feel like I am missing some cool synergies, what do you folks have as cool Six combos?
In the same vein, The Necrobloom's dredge ability seems like it should be abuseable. Just not sure what to do with it really.
Simulacrum Synthesizer support
Gideon of the Trials -> Steel Seraph
Decided to try this swap as Gideon is pretty narrow in the decks that want him (mostly control decks) and the Angel has nice blink and artifact synergies which are more prevalent.
I don't have many Azorius cards I love, so I am ok with trying stuff out. Paying 3 mana for the effect is too much in this cube, but being an artifact is serious upside. I have a tough time evaluating the equip ability. Are you usually upgrading the equipped creature or downgrading it? You also don't have to equip and it can just be a removal spell.
Crime?
These three creatures have me pretty excited to reconsider the Crime "mechanic". I could see them do work in tempo or control decks that tend to run more interaction than other decks. I counted 18 ways to commit crimes in Blue and Black and 14 in Red.
Duelist: I've been liking the draw 7 "combo" with Psychic Frog and some redundancy wouldn't be bad. Counterspells can ensure that you loot on opponent's turn and bounce can clear blockers for big damage.
Kaervek: Doubling up on cheap Black spells can be a great way to pull ahead. This can do a good Snapcaster Mage impression. Fatal Push something, commit a crime and cast it again. Same thing with Duress. Dark Ritual is a great one to get back and so are a lot of 1-2 mana value creatures. I saw Erik use this one and I think it has potential!
Magda: I’m less sold with Magda, mostly because I don’t actually have that many treasure producers. 3 treasures for a token is a good rate though and it would be decent in non-Green decks. It has less explosive potential than the Duelist and less grindy value than Kaervek. This means it’s probably not a good enough piece for the cube.
I would probably cut Malcolm, Alluring Scoundrel for the Duelist and Woe Strider for Kaervek. Malcolm is just ok and I have a lot of sacrifice support with MH3
Kaerverk is great. My issue with it is that it promotes black so much. It's not that it recurs black cards, that's fine. It's that the best cards to go with it are Dark Ritual, Fatal Push and Thoughtseize. So it's too monoblack for my tastes. Fun card, though!
Six is super cool, but retrace doesn't return to hand...the card is cast from graveyard. So you can't cycle with retrace, but you can cast via evoke from the graveyard. You can cast Underworld Breach, but can't return it to your hand. It's slightly more limiting, but still a powerful value engine in tandem with things like Life from the Loam or The Gitrog Monster.
There's probably 50 infinite 4-5 card combos with it, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to really break it. Still as far as value engines go this is one of the more juiced so I should probably think about it harder than I have.
There's probably 50 infinite 4-5 card combos with it, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to really break it. Still as far as value engines go this is one of the more juiced so I should probably think about it harder than I have.
Hadn't considered that point, I'll have to think about it some more. It's just really appealing as a control/value engine.
Ah crap, brain fart!
That's really where I am at right now. I'll wait and see what Dom comes up with for the ProTour, I'm sure he already broke it in half in testing.
MH3 has really revitalized the sacrifice archetype for me, to the point I am considering adding one of these
I seem to be wanting one more sacrifice your land effect and Squandered Ressources is a fantastic mana engine, but my Goglari section is already stacked! The extra land sacrifice goes nuts with Aftermath Analyst, Second Sunrise, Skittering Precursor and Titania, Protector of Argoth.
Sylvan Safekeeper likely fits into more decks being mono Green, but is less exciting than the enchantment.
Speaking of mono Green, Scapeshift also makes sense since it has the benefit of triggering both the land sacrifice and landfall all in one. Plus you get to tutor up all your cool utility lands.
The reasonable option is the Safekeeper I think, but not yet sure!
I am also revisiting Cataclysm as a potent build around.
Wrenn and Six is already busted, but Six to retrace W&6 would be big game.
Six + Groundskeeper and Lion's Eye Diamond is infinite mana. That's the only 3 card combo I could come up with.
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You could theoretically go infinite with Aftermath Analyst + Shfiting Woodlands + Squandered Resources
Resources is great with Fastbond and Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator....1 life for 2 mana. Can set up a big turn with Yawgmoth's Will.
It's also really good with The Gitrog Monster, but that'd be a lot of investement in lands in the golgari section. I generally think the Frog is more fun, and also usable outside of a combo. It triggers on lands going into the graveyard from anywhere so it can do crazy things with discard, mill, and sacrifice. It's good with Six as well. 5 mana is a lot, but I love my Golgari Frog Tricks™ decks
Six + Groundskeeper and Lion's Eye Diamond is infinite mana. That's the only 3 card combo I could come up with.
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You could theoretically go infinite with Aftermath Analyst + Shfiting Woodlands + Squandered Resources
Resources is great with Fastbond and Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator....1 life for 2 mana. Can set up a big turn with Yawgmoth's Will.
It's also really good with The Gitrog Monster, but that'd be a lot of investement in lands in the golgari section. I generally think the Frog is more fun, and also usable outside of a combo. It triggers on lands going into the graveyard from anywhere so it can do crazy things with discard, mill, and sacrifice. It's good with Six as well. 5 mana is a lot, but I love my Golgari Frog Tricks™ decks
There is a real potential for the Squandered archetype. These cards are already in our cubes or easy to slot in:
Parasitic:
Natural Balance only finds basics, but it puts them into play untapped. There are a ton of similar effects, perhaps they are worth exploring.
Core support:
Nice:
Meh:
Parasitic:
Natural Balance only finds basics, but it puts them into play untapped. There are a ton of similar effects, perhaps they are worth exploring.
Core support:
Nice:
Meh:
Sorry took me a while to respond, was busy with the cube design contest!
While I do really like Frog, I can't bring myself to adding it to this cube because at 5 mana and with the efficient removal that I run, it feels like a trap for drafters. You will take a big tempo hit if they answer it and have gained very little value. Best case scenario is casting it before your land for turn and then dropping 2 fetchlands while you have priority. This guarantees you and extra land drop and 2 cards, but it is a highly unlikely event. For that reason, I am leaning towards Resources, although there might be an alternative in
It's mono-colored and costs less, but you are limited to Black mana and you have to go off NOW. It's a step down from Squandered Resources, but maybe that's ok since it's tough to find multicolored slots.
I wish I could include Flagstones of Trokair. It's super synergistic with a lot of cards at the cost of a land slot, but space is tight and I would want the Squandered Resources.
I would add
To your list of core support. Card draw + damage can do a number on the opponent.
I was listening to LPR's episode with Richard Garfield and they were talking about overdevelopped games. My understanding of it is that some designers test and test and test the game smoothing the experience during the design phase. In cubes terms it was akin to removing power outliers to have more balanced gameplay. Garfield was arguing against this practice saying that exploring a cube with the power outliers present was a great and that removing them before the players got ahold of them was robbing them of fun.
Chasing that brokenness is appealing to me and has me reconsidering some cards I have previously omitted or recently cut.
The fast mana is pretty clearly dangerous, but with the cube having such a low curve, it mostly helps out stuff like KCI, Bolas's Citadel, Paradox Engine, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and so on. I want these engines to be a big part of the cube and these accelerants would make them even better. If these get added, Displacer Kitten starts looking mighty appealing. It can lead to a lot of nonsense (as tested in my MP cube).
Bowmasters can (and probably will) win a lot of games, but it's fun doing so. With Psychic Frog, Duelist of the Mind and Proft's Eidetic Memory there is a real theme with draw 7s that I want to explore. The counters and tokens are relevant to different archetypes too. It's particularly brutal against Blue decks that have the most draw/loot effects, but it doesn't prevent you from getting more cards, just puts a lot of pressure.
I am still not interested in cards like Gut, Bombardiers, Minsc & Boo, Oko, ... These cards just run away with the game by themselves and have limited synergy.
Are there synergistic power outliers that you are scared of running that I haven't mentioned?
100% agree that both Frog and Resources is too much for a 360ish cube. I like to have variety and these are a little too close to each other.
While I do really like Frog, I can't bring myself to adding it to this cube because at 5 mana and with the efficient removal that I run, it feels like a trap for drafters. You will take a big tempo hit if they answer it and have gained very little value. Best case scenario is casting it before your land for turn and then dropping 2 fetchlands while you have priority. This guarantees you and extra land drop and 2 cards, but it is a highly unlikely event. For that reason, I am leaning towards Resources, although there might be an alternative in
It's mono-colored and costs less, but you are limited to Black mana and you have to go off NOW. It's a step down from Squandered Resources, but maybe that's ok since it's tough to find multicolored slots.
Not sure I agree with this categorization. Returning artifacts, creatures and lands makes these highly versatile in our type of cubes. Second Sunrise not working with Balance or Cataclysm is a bummer, but having 6 or 8 mana to pull off those interactions with Faith's Reward is a stretch anyway.Parasitic:
I wish I could include Flagstones of Trokair. It's super synergistic with a lot of cards at the cost of a land slot, but space is tight and I would want the Squandered Resources.
I would add
To your list of core support. Card draw + damage can do a number on the opponent.
I was listening to LPR's episode with Richard Garfield and they were talking about overdevelopped games. My understanding of it is that some designers test and test and test the game smoothing the experience during the design phase. In cubes terms it was akin to removing power outliers to have more balanced gameplay. Garfield was arguing against this practice saying that exploring a cube with the power outliers present was a great and that removing them before the players got ahold of them was robbing them of fun.
Chasing that brokenness is appealing to me and has me reconsidering some cards I have previously omitted or recently cut.
The fast mana is pretty clearly dangerous, but with the cube having such a low curve, it mostly helps out stuff like KCI, Bolas's Citadel, Paradox Engine, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and so on. I want these engines to be a big part of the cube and these accelerants would make them even better. If these get added, Displacer Kitten starts looking mighty appealing. It can lead to a lot of nonsense (as tested in my MP cube).
Bowmasters can (and probably will) win a lot of games, but it's fun doing so. With Psychic Frog, Duelist of the Mind and Proft's Eidetic Memory there is a real theme with draw 7s that I want to explore. The counters and tokens are relevant to different archetypes too. It's particularly brutal against Blue decks that have the most draw/loot effects, but it doesn't prevent you from getting more cards, just puts a lot of pressure.
I am still not interested in cards like Gut, Bombardiers, Minsc & Boo, Oko, ... These cards just run away with the game by themselves and have limited synergy.
Are there synergistic power outliers that you are scared of running that I haven't mentioned?
This is absolutely true, and ,indeed, a widespread problem in game design. After all, the easiest way to balance a game is by making it dull.
For me the telltale sign of a card being bad for my cube is being forced to take it even when it's not fun. It's like drafting power, you see a Mox Jet in the pack and you must take it, even if there are other, more fun cards in the pack you would rather pick. It becomes a non-decision.
Bowmasters was one of those cards. It's just too good. First, it murders a ton of creatures. Way, way too many of them. Thalia, Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder, Luminarch Aspirant, Waterfront Bouncer, Young Pyromancer and Mana Dorks all become terrible and those are the kind of cards I want to promote, not punish. Second, it generates too much value. If your opponent Brainstorms, you get to kill a big creature, get a big token and still keep it around.
We like the damage to the face but, frankly, this is one of the biggest mistakes Wizards has commited. It's the first 3 mana creature that costs 2 mana. Even tough it looks like it has a lot of synergies, it just overwhelms through sheer force. I actually found it less synergetic than the best, most good-stuff cards in my cube:
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I do like Grim Monolith. Without planeswalkers or other clear targets, it becomes a piece for specific decks. While it's still one of the best cards in my cube, it doesn't feel wrong not to draft it. I do recommend you to try it.
Mana Vault is far more dangerous since it's worth playing for 4-drops, doesn't filter into colorless an additional mana and fits way more decks.
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Rain of Filth is pretty terrible and no more narrow than Squandered Resources.
There might be ways to use Second Sunrise and friends, particularly Brought Back. However, it seems to lean too much on other cards that are already parasitic. I agree that Valakut Exploration could help, and I would certainly try to find room for Flagstones of Trokair if that's the case. I would love to see what you do with this.
So I listened to the advice some of you gave me regarding my Azorius archetypes and decided to include these
It’s likely overkill, but I have been able to draft this, which is distinct enough to other artifact decks that I am encouraged to continue testing!
Second Sunrise and Tameshi offer a lot of grindy value even if the KCI/Trawler/Retriever engine steals the show. Tameshi returning a Saga from the GY is great. As is returning Cradle or Academy to hand to replay as a nice ritual effect. You can also recur one of your engine pieces should they get dealt with. Looks solid here. Teshar would have been a good fit as it is easy to trigger in this deck and has lots of juicy targets to recur.
I’ve found the Synthesizer to be a bit at odds with the rest of the cube. It wants you to gather as many 3+ artifacts as you can, even though the rest of the cube pushes you towards leaner mana curves. Same idea with Workshop. Not sure I like the dynamic, because it can be frustrating to be on the hunt for those artifacts and end up short (similar to SFM and equipment now that I think about it).
That means the hunt for a Blue artifact build around is still potentially on.
I'd like to include a card I just discovered browsing for Zombies
Works with adventures, flashback, madness, escape and so on. That is a lot of ways to trigger it and it comes back for free. It would fit in the same decks as Gravecrawler which is perfect.
Random note: just learned that Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis + Altar of Dementia + Caldaia Guardian mills yourself out. Neat I guess.
It’s likely overkill, but I have been able to draft this, which is distinct enough to other artifact decks that I am encouraged to continue testing!
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Second Sunrise and Tameshi offer a lot of grindy value even if the KCI/Trawler/Retriever engine steals the show. Tameshi returning a Saga from the GY is great. As is returning Cradle or Academy to hand to replay as a nice ritual effect. You can also recur one of your engine pieces should they get dealt with. Looks solid here. Teshar would have been a good fit as it is easy to trigger in this deck and has lots of juicy targets to recur.
I’ve found the Synthesizer to be a bit at odds with the rest of the cube. It wants you to gather as many 3+ artifacts as you can, even though the rest of the cube pushes you towards leaner mana curves. Same idea with Workshop. Not sure I like the dynamic, because it can be frustrating to be on the hunt for those artifacts and end up short (similar to SFM and equipment now that I think about it).
That means the hunt for a Blue artifact build around is still potentially on.
I'd like to include a card I just discovered browsing for Zombies
Works with adventures, flashback, madness, escape and so on. That is a lot of ways to trigger it and it comes back for free. It would fit in the same decks as Gravecrawler which is perfect.
Random note: just learned that Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis + Altar of Dementia + Caldaia Guardian mills yourself out. Neat I guess.
If I may ask, how has your fastbond package played for you with your support?
Your comments on the Git-Frog Monster in an earlier post got me thinking in general just how much of the support in my list are high CMC, but when they come together I feel like fastbond really reaches its full explosive potential. How does it come together for you?
Your comments on the Git-Frog Monster in an earlier post got me thinking in general just how much of the support in my list are high CMC, but when they come together I feel like fastbond really reaches its full explosive potential. How does it come together for you?
Fastbond is a card that is a very high pick because it leads to unique types of nonsense. In most decks that would want Fastbond, it’s one of the best cards in the deck. Take this UG self-mill deck for example
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It’s great without Fastbond, but the enchantment adds a whole new level of explosiveness. With Crucible or Loam, you can return most of your lands to play and ramp out Nexus of Fate. You can trigger your Hedron Crab multiple times. You can hit land drops with Sail into the West. Same gameplan, a lot faster.
This deck illustrates well the two best ways to abuse it: draw cards and bin + recur lands.
In my cube specifically, I run a bunch of draw 7s so that is the best way to stock up on a lot of cards to make Fastbond shine. So mostly combo decks:
Combo Oath
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An Oath of Druids deck that uses the enchantment to mill a large chunk of its library and/or cheat a fatty into play. Here Crucible + Fastbond mean you can replay all of those lands and maybe Valakut Exploration gets you the win. Or you can go the Draw 7 + Fastbond route to Brain Freeze your opponent. Fastbond also allows you to hard cast your top end pretty handily when you have access to a ton of lands/cards, acting as a backup plan.
Token Storm
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Another combo deck that once again features Oath of Druids, but is less focused on it. It is more of a Storm deck than anything else. In those decks, mana is often the limiting factor, so Fastbond greatly increases the speed once again. I've found that you don't need to go super big to win once you have a lot of cards and mana. Though Titania + Crucible + Fetchland + Fastbond is a lot of 5/3s.
For the grindy aspect, you either want a way to bin the lands or sacrifice them + a way to recur them. This opens the door for White decks to shine with recursion, ways to bin lands and Felidar Retreat as a finisher. Take this deck
Landfall sacrifice
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It has all of the tools to go completely nuts IF it had a way to sacrifice lands. This is where Squandered Ressources becomes very interesting because I've drafted a few of these decks and it seems to always be the missing piece to take it to the next level. Once again, there is so much value with the 2-4 drops, that I don't see the need for support higher up the curve.
Discard control
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This deck uses Fastbond as a way to recoup the lands you might have discarded or sacrificed. You need the land recursion of course, but it lets you power out some higher mana threats or rebound from your land destruction. There is a Boros deck with Balance and Devastating Dreams that clears lands that will gladly splash Fastbond too.
So that the general gist of it. I think Squandered Ressources and Cataclysm are missing from the cube. I am curious to hear what cards have been working for you alongside Fastbond higher up the curve.
Simulacrum Synthethizer is a cool design but it plainly did not work in my cube. There just aren't enough high cost artifacts and, if you do try to force it, you just end up with an unplayable curve. I'll probably cut it at some point, and see if I can fit something else instead.
So first off, thanks for the incredibly detailed response, it was a pleasure to read through!
I support a lot of higher-cmc silliness in my list as a generality. (Un)fortunately early on I decided that Dragonstorm was a foundational pillar of my list. I originally gravitated towards Fastbond as a tool to help players reasonably play Giant fire-breathing lizards, even if not focusing on the Storm aspect.
**BIG Mana
Part of the Fastbond package I included to help with this was some Mana Accelerating Enchantments:
(To a narrower extent, Nissa, Who Shakes the World can help here too...)
While I would hardly call 3cmc 'higher up the curve' in most cases, I feel as if Mana Flare and Heartbeat don't fit your list's goals so I will include them. I like these a lot actually. They are absurd when Fastbond is in full swing and often allow players to cast whatever they heckin' desire.
They also are great with Palinchron! But more importantly for my pod, I have found that inexperienced drafters can use them to play their big monsters and spells, even without a complex engine. I like game pieces that allow my players to execute a simple game plan while also having specific, broken applications to be discovered.
**Greasing the Wheels
This category of Fastbond support focuses on keeping the lands coming. Whether through Top-o'-library effects or Card Draw.
You include most of the Draw-7s that I do, so I don't see any need to include them here. But they would definitely fall under this category.
While these effects once again might be much too slow for your list, I have found them to be excellent at enabling Fastbond to sling those lands. All of them can find homes elsewhere as well, so it is not like it is Fastbond or bust either.
Something as simple as Card Draw rooted in Green can help here too.
I don't run a lot of these anymore. Only Harmonize and Prime Speaker. If I had a bit more space in my Green section these would probably all be in though. All of the cards are at least serviceable outside of supporting Fastbond, but I simply don't find them as fun to play with as Draw-7s or Future Sight-esque effects.
**High CMC cards that love fastbond
I support Bounce in Blue so I like that Meloku and Upheaval can intersect that strategy with Fastbond in an extremely broken way.
I also support Land Sacrifice which plays extremely well with Pox and Fastbond, and both Titania and the Git-Frog are great here.
Avenger is a land focused finisher that is generically strong without Fastbond but silly with it.
**Wrapping Up
Sorry, this post was kind of info-vomit! But I hope it shed light on my high CMC support.
As a final note:
Have you considered Sylvan Safekeeper? In your posted decklist I think he would have done double-duty as a way to keep your value creatures sticking to the board while sac'ing lands. I also have games under my belt where he was downright obnoxious with Titania.
I support a lot of higher-cmc silliness in my list as a generality. (Un)fortunately early on I decided that Dragonstorm was a foundational pillar of my list. I originally gravitated towards Fastbond as a tool to help players reasonably play Giant fire-breathing lizards, even if not focusing on the Storm aspect.
**BIG Mana
Part of the Fastbond package I included to help with this was some Mana Accelerating Enchantments:
(To a narrower extent, Nissa, Who Shakes the World can help here too...)
While I would hardly call 3cmc 'higher up the curve' in most cases, I feel as if Mana Flare and Heartbeat don't fit your list's goals so I will include them. I like these a lot actually. They are absurd when Fastbond is in full swing and often allow players to cast whatever they heckin' desire.
They also are great with Palinchron! But more importantly for my pod, I have found that inexperienced drafters can use them to play their big monsters and spells, even without a complex engine. I like game pieces that allow my players to execute a simple game plan while also having specific, broken applications to be discovered.
**Greasing the Wheels
This category of Fastbond support focuses on keeping the lands coming. Whether through Top-o'-library effects or Card Draw.
You include most of the Draw-7s that I do, so I don't see any need to include them here. But they would definitely fall under this category.
While these effects once again might be much too slow for your list, I have found them to be excellent at enabling Fastbond to sling those lands. All of them can find homes elsewhere as well, so it is not like it is Fastbond or bust either.
Something as simple as Card Draw rooted in Green can help here too.
I don't run a lot of these anymore. Only Harmonize and Prime Speaker. If I had a bit more space in my Green section these would probably all be in though. All of the cards are at least serviceable outside of supporting Fastbond, but I simply don't find them as fun to play with as Draw-7s or Future Sight-esque effects.
**High CMC cards that love fastbond
I support Bounce in Blue so I like that Meloku and Upheaval can intersect that strategy with Fastbond in an extremely broken way.
I also support Land Sacrifice which plays extremely well with Pox and Fastbond, and both Titania and the Git-Frog are great here.
Avenger is a land focused finisher that is generically strong without Fastbond but silly with it.
**Wrapping Up
Sorry, this post was kind of info-vomit! But I hope it shed light on my high CMC support.
As a final note:
Have you considered Sylvan Safekeeper? In your posted decklist I think he would have done double-duty as a way to keep your value creatures sticking to the board while sac'ing lands. I also have games under my belt where he was downright obnoxious with Titania.
Right back at you!
That is an excellent point that I am completely disregarding in this cube. Has me thinking of "easy" combos/engines I could include.
I used to run some of these when I was less committed to this more all in version of the cube and was cultivating some classic midrange decks. These are fun build arounds, that I had forgotten about recently. I still run them in my MP cube where The Reality Chip is one of my favorite versions of the effect.
Your high CMC Fastbond cards are classics and I love them (minus the Avenger which is just meh to me). Tough to include in this iteration of the cube though.
I have actually and am currently trying to find a spot for it alongside Squandered Resources. You are 100% on the money that it would shine in these grindy decks.
I decided to make a few minor swaps to the cube
-> -> -> Woe Strider is a great glue card with many uses. However, Warren Soultrader is my new favorite card and I feel like I have enough sacrifice outlets. I am cutting the Strider for a few reasons.
- The sacrifice effect is one of the least important (scry 1).
- While the Escape ability is great, I already have more premium cards taxing the GY. Hogaak, Kroxa, Nethergoyf, Tasigur and that is just in Black. Since these cards can be repetitively recurred and are easily tutorable, I figure I can lose one such effect.
Poxwalkers gives me a "free" card for my GY decks which is conveniently a zombie. Seems easier to trigger than Prized Amalgam so it gets the nod.
I greatly bolstered my sacrifice decks and added new aggressive Red cards (like Reckless Pyrosurfer). Kari Zev is still very potent, but I feel the need to beef up my control and spellslinger decks. I decided to try Pyromancer as it rewards you for packing cantrips and helps either close the game or stabilize the board.
Finally decided to pull the trigger on Squandered Resources. As mentioned, I think it will be a boon for combo and grindy decks alike. Spell Queller gets cut because I have too many Azorius three drops and it is the least interesting one to me. Tempo decks can still exist just fine and it would be one of the cards I would gladly add if I were going up in cube size.
Trying to figure out a package that can play in both grindy decks and more explosive decks is challenging. Street Wraith or Gitaxian Probe are free enablers for their respective decks, which allows drafters to turbocharge them. I think Flagstones of Trokair is the lands equivalent, so I definitely want that as part of the includes.
I am not big on UN cards, but Mon's Goblin Waiters is so perfect for both aristocrat combo decks and lands. Half a mana goes too far on the UN scale for my tastes though
I am coming around on Molten Vortex. It's kind of like a Flame Jab that does 2 damage instead of one. You lose out on the spell cast, but 2 damage instead of 1 is a big game. With Loam, Slogurk and draw 7s, you can find plenty of lands to pitch.
Thinking of this Gruul package
This looks like a very solid control package in my mind. It can control the board and later in the game, burn an opponent out. Great ties with discard as well, which Green needs help with in this cube. Having a permanent that can be used as a burn spell and bin itself for a single mana is actually really big for Six. Lurrus also appreciates it, as does Nethergoyf. Young Pyromancer is crying in a corner, so I might have to add the Seal as an extra burn spell rather than replace an instant or sorcery.
Would love input on this idea.
I'll be trying to flesh out the lands theme more in another post, but in the meantime, here is a deck Erik drafted that is exactly what I was hoping for:
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Resources fuels a big Yawgmoth's Will turn or lets you cast a huge Finale of Devastation. Then there is Fastbond + Valakut Exploration + Ramunap Excavator/Aftermath Analyst. Plus the Titania combo. That is a lot of utility for a single card IMO!
That deck truly gave me hope for a potential, non-parasitic land combo archetype. I didn't think it would be so viable. It relies heavily on Fastbond, but it does have multiple outs and can play a normal game, too. In fact, the only narrow card in that list is Squandered Resources, everything else is widely playable.
Being able to sacrifice lands is huge, even Sylvan Safekeeper would provide redundancy. That joke Mogg card that produces mana is fantastic, but it's so ugly! I would look into making a functionally identical proxy with proper art. Either way, needed seems great outside of the combo and not too great inside it, either.
Being able to sacrifice lands is huge, even Sylvan Safekeeper would provide redundancy. That joke Mogg card that produces mana is fantastic, but it's so ugly! I would look into making a functionally identical proxy with proper art. Either way, needed seems great outside of the combo and not too great inside it, either.
Ideas are firing on all cylinders and I think they are actually decent, so I thought I would share them. This is a flurry of changes, most of which I think are actually here to stay.
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I've been unimpressed in my current iteration with cards like Phoenix of Ash. They are a little too fair for my goals. However, seeing this video of LSVdrafting forcing the Dredge deck piqued my interest in regards to Detective's Phoenix. The deck had a good showing against fairer decks and got blown out by the broken mana deck. What got my attention is that it gives haste and evasion for a single mana should you have the right cards in your GY. It led to some very cool lines during the draft and is the kind of card I want in my cube.
I'm convinced that the Precursor has legs, but it feels like I've been over supporting sacrifice decks since MH3, so I want to tone it down just a bit.
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You have all been suggesting the Safekeeper and I wholeheartedly agree with you that it should be amazing. It's both an engine and interaction for a single mana. I would love an extra land sacrifice effect for Red in addition to Greater Gargadon, but I haven't quite found the card that makes sense just yet (still not considering the ugly goblin as Erik calls it). I often think about Orcish Lumberjack, but I'd like something not as restrictive or limiting me to Gruul.
Rancor is always serviceable, but without the explicit Berserker support it's expendable.
->
Speaking of expendable, Embercleave isn't as exciting as it once was without Berserk and friends. I'd like to take this slot to add a cheap instant or sorcery as I've slowly gutted the support for Young Pyromancer, Dreadhorde Arcanist and Magmatic Channeler. This weakens SFM somewhat, but it's pretty rare to want the equipment without it anyways.
Lava Dart hits around 50 creatures with the one damage, which makes it pretty limited. The flashback triggering for free and binning lands is sweet, but it limits it mostly to dedicated spells matter decks. There is also Barbarian Ring which looks pretty good as a land slot. But once again, it is limited in which decks want it. I instead chose a more universally applicable card with late game potential. Chain Lightning was also a consideration, but I am going with the instant speed burn spell for now.
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I am adding a Simic card and don't want to overcrowd the multicolored section for no reason. So simple switch back to the OG! The instant speed on SitW is fantastic, but voting mechanism in a duel less so.
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I find myself wanting more Life from the Loam effects with the addition of Six, Molten Vortex, Squandered Resources and friends. I'd run a second Loam in a heartbeat if I broke singleton, but instead, the Ooze is here to do a serviceable impression.
Flagstones will help push the lands archetype as mentioned in an above post.
As also mentioned before, the Synthesizer and Workshop are too demanding considering the low curve of the cube. At 450, I could make it work easy, but not 360ish.
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I'm moving in to my little lands discard-control-burn package. I got to draft this deck as a proof of concept, what do you think?
Uro and Six give you late game domination. Recurring an Engineered Explosives sounds awesome to contain the opponent. Inti, Converter and Rielle all make sure you don't lose too much value from discarding. Irencrag Pyromancer is easy to trigger and can close out the game alongside other burn spells just like we drew it up! Missing a Loam effect to fully go off, but still think this deck has potential.
-> I've been unimpressed in my current iteration with cards like Phoenix of Ash. They are a little too fair for my goals. However, seeing this video of LSV
I'm convinced that the Precursor has legs, but it feels like I've been over supporting sacrifice decks since MH3, so I want to tone it down just a bit.
-> You have all been suggesting the Safekeeper and I wholeheartedly agree with you that it should be amazing. It's both an engine and interaction for a single mana. I would love an extra land sacrifice effect for Red in addition to Greater Gargadon, but I haven't quite found the card that makes sense just yet (still not considering the ugly goblin as Erik calls it). I often think about Orcish Lumberjack, but I'd like something not as restrictive or limiting me to Gruul.
Rancor is always serviceable, but without the explicit Berserker support it's expendable.
-> Speaking of expendable, Embercleave isn't as exciting as it once was without Berserk and friends. I'd like to take this slot to add a cheap instant or sorcery as I've slowly gutted the support for Young Pyromancer, Dreadhorde Arcanist and Magmatic Channeler. This weakens SFM somewhat, but it's pretty rare to want the equipment without it anyways.
Lava Dart hits around 50 creatures with the one damage, which makes it pretty limited. The flashback triggering for free and binning lands is sweet, but it limits it mostly to dedicated spells matter decks. There is also Barbarian Ring which looks pretty good as a land slot. But once again, it is limited in which decks want it. I instead chose a more universally applicable card with late game potential. Chain Lightning was also a consideration, but I am going with the instant speed burn spell for now.
-> I am adding a Simic card and don't want to overcrowd the multicolored section for no reason. So simple switch back to the OG! The instant speed on SitW is fantastic, but voting mechanism in a duel less so.
-> -> I find myself wanting more Life from the Loam effects with the addition of Six, Molten Vortex, Squandered Resources and friends. I'd run a second Loam in a heartbeat if I broke singleton, but instead, the Ooze is here to do a serviceable impression.
Flagstones will help push the lands archetype as mentioned in an above post.
As also mentioned before, the Synthesizer and Workshop are too demanding considering the low curve of the cube. At 450, I could make it work easy, but not 360ish.
-> -> I'm moving in to my little lands discard-control-burn package. I got to draft this deck as a proof of concept, what do you think?
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Uro and Six give you late game domination. Recurring an Engineered Explosives sounds awesome to contain the opponent. Inti, Converter and Rielle all make sure you don't lose too much value from discarding. Irencrag Pyromancer is easy to trigger and can close out the game alongside other burn spells just like we drew it up! Missing a Loam effect to fully go off, but still think this deck has potential.
Thank you for your sacrifice in testing the SynthesizerIdeas are firing on all cylinders and I think they are actually decent, so I thought I would share them. This is a flurry of changes, most of which I think are actually here to stay.
I've been unimpressed in my current iteration with cards like Phoenix of Ash. They are a little too fair for my goals. However, seeing this video of LSVdraftingforcing the Dredge deck piqued my interest in regards to Detective's Phoenix. The deck had a good showing against fairer decks and got blown out by the broken mana deck. What got my attention is that it gives haste and evasion for a single mana should you have the right cards in your GY. It led to some very cool lines during the draft and is the kind of card I want in my cube.
I'm convinced that the Precursor has legs, but it feels like I've been over supporting sacrifice decks since MH3, so I want to tone it down just a bit.
You have all been suggesting the Safekeeper and I wholeheartedly agree with you that it should be amazing. It's both an engine and interaction for a single mana. I would love an extra land sacrifice effect for Red in addition to Greater Gargadon, but I haven't quite found the card that makes sense just yet (still not considering the ugly goblin as Erik calls it). I often think about Orcish Lumberjack, but I'd like something not as restrictive or limiting me to Gruul.
Rancor is always serviceable, but without the explicit Berserker support it's expendable.
Speaking of expendable, Embercleave isn't as exciting as it once was without Berserk and friends. I'd like to take this slot to add a cheap instant or sorcery as I've slowly gutted the support for Young Pyromancer, Dreadhorde Arcanist and Magmatic Channeler. This weakens SFM somewhat, but it's pretty rare to want the equipment without it anyways.
Lava Dart hits around 50 creatures with the one damage, which makes it pretty limited. The flashback triggering for free and binning lands is sweet, but it limits it mostly to dedicated spells matter decks. There is also Barbarian Ring which looks pretty good as a land slot. But once again, it is limited in which decks want it. I instead chose a more universally applicable card with late game potential. Chain Lightning was also a consideration, but I am going with the instant speed burn spell for now.
I am adding a Simic card and don't want to overcrowd the multicolored section for no reason. So simple switch back to the OG! The instant speed on SitW is fantastic, but voting mechanism in a duel less so.
I find myself wanting more Life from the Loam effects with the addition of Six, Molten Vortex, Squandered Resources and friends. I'd run a second Loam in a heartbeat if I broke singleton, but instead, the Ooze is here to do a serviceable impression.
Flagstones will help push the lands archetype as mentioned in an above post.
As also mentioned before, the Synthesizer and Workshop are too demanding considering the low curve of the cube. At 450, I could make it work easy, but not 360ish.
I'm moving in to my little lands discard-control-burn package. I got to draft this deck as a proof of concept, what do you think?
Uro and Six give you late game domination. Recurring an Engineered Explosives sounds awesome to contain the opponent. Inti, Converter and Rielle all make sure you don't lose too much value from discarding. Irencrag Pyromancer is easy to trigger and can close out the game alongside other burn spells just like we drew it up! Missing a Loam effect to fully go off, but still think this deck has potential.
!These all seem like very reasonable changes. I'm excited to hear whether Molten Vortex pulls it's weight or just lands in sideboards. Similarly, I've just added Flagstones of Trokair to my cube in hopes of bolstering the white lands theme. It seems like a weird include, as it's very narrow and a land to boot but it should be strong in the right decks. Also it finds typed duals and is very nostalgic and a clear signal.
I like the changes. Flagstones is a little narrow, but I suppose not that disimilar from Street Wraith in the way it juices an archetype. It allows for some nice sequences with the tilling creatures and Lotus Field..Balance, etc
Seal of Fire is clever. I've always enjoyed the permanent-based removal pieces like Executioner's Capsule and Pyrite Spellbomb when supporting Hellbent and things like Anje's Ravager or Ox of Agonas.
I hadn't given Detective's Phoenix much thought, but it's pretty interesting! Collect evidence 6 feels like a lot as our mana curves get leaner and leaner. I agree that Phoenix of Ash is underwhelming and very midrangey. I've recently returned to Flamewake Phoenix because that 1 Red activation is pretty clutch....although Ferocious is a bit restricting.
I never got much mileage out of Molten Vortex, but it's been several years since I've tested it. RR and 2 Cards to deal the first two damage is not very enticing. I ulimately think it's a little too fair/slow/mana intensive for our environments, but I'd love to hear that your testing proves contrary....It's stock has definitely risen since the printings of more discard matters cards.
Seal of Fire is clever. I've always enjoyed the permanent-based removal pieces like Executioner's Capsule and Pyrite Spellbomb when supporting Hellbent and things like Anje's Ravager or Ox of Agonas.
I hadn't given Detective's Phoenix much thought, but it's pretty interesting! Collect evidence 6 feels like a lot as our mana curves get leaner and leaner. I agree that Phoenix of Ash is underwhelming and very midrangey. I've recently returned to Flamewake Phoenix because that 1 Red activation is pretty clutch....although Ferocious is a bit restricting.
I never got much mileage out of Molten Vortex, but it's been several years since I've tested it. RR and 2 Cards to deal the first two damage is not very enticing. I ulimately think it's a little too fair/slow/mana intensive for our environments, but I'd love to hear that your testing proves contrary....It's stock has definitely risen since the printings of more discard matters cards.
I hadn't considered that angle, but it does look appealing there for sure. The only downside is that between Pyrite Spellbomb, Legion Extruder and Seal of Fire, it eats away at the instant and sorcery count in Red, so I have to stay mindful of that.
I agree that it isn't trivial, but at the same time there are a bunch of cards to cheat it out. I included all of the 1 mana land cyclers from Lord of the Rings (minus the Eagles which I replaced by Angel of the Ruins). There is Street Wraith, Shark Typhoon and others you can draft more highly to enable it.
I'll try and post my findings, but yeah, it's a long shot. I included it as a way to bin lands, absent a land sacrifice effect I am happy with in Red. My issue isn't necessarily that it's too slow, but that it is hard to sustain outside of Green. Without Loam effects or Aftermath Analyst, how do you abuse it? Wheel effects? Sevinne's Reclamation type cards? Or are the discard/Delve/Escape synergies enough? No clue...
It's definitely a perpetual struggle to maintain enough support for spells matters. It'd be different if we were running>400 card cubes. Artifacts and graveyard themes eat up a lot of real estate.
Forgot about the cycling cards!
There's not really a lot:
I think Land Tax, Inti, Rielle, and Ravager are the higher upside non-green pieces with Vortex. But still it's a lot of hoops to jump through to just deal 6-10 damage. I don't love it.
It's unfortunate that Living Twister is not quite good enough.
I think I'd rather just play Fireblast at our power level. For synergy, I prefer Flame Jab. The intersection between spells and discard makes it much more appealing to the non-gruul guilds:
(in addition to the above cards)
Both Jab and Vortex exist exclusively as synergy pieces, because they are so underwhelming on their own.
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I drafted what might be the best shell for Molten Vortex and it's just ok? I feel like the other land synergies are more powerful if you can get them off and Six + Seal of Fire kind of steals the spotlight as both cards are very much playable by themselves.
This draft is probably enough to get me off the Vortex for now. Flame Jab is probably more versatile as you say inscho, but that 1 damage is anemic. I have definitely considered Fireblast and could see it playing well with Fiery Confluence alongside Flare of Duplication which could be a fun burn deck.
On similar note, I see that you run Raven's Crime and I am more inclined to slot that in for discard/lands/spells matter synergies. I have zero experience with the card though. Does it see play in a wide array of decks?
I love the Land Tax idea and may try it out even without Molten Vortex. As support and because I really like what Lotus Field brings to the cube, I've been toying with the idea of Lotus Vale. Land untappers, Balance, Flagstones of Trokair, Titania, Protector of Argoth and a bunch of others can really take advantage of it.
The big downside is that Wasteland, Flickerwisp and Vindicate are brutal without the hexproof. Are 3 cards enough for the Vale to be considered a trap? Maybe, especially when one of them is a highly sought after colorless card...
For those of you rocking Wildfire in higher powered cubes, do you have example deck lists you think are neat? I want to believe so badly as it would solve a bunch of my issues in Red.
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This draft is probably enough to get me off the Vortex for now. Flame Jab is probably more versatile as you say inscho, but that 1 damage is anemic. I have definitely considered Fireblast and could see it playing well with Fiery Confluence alongside Flare of Duplication which could be a fun burn deck.
On similar note, I see that you run Raven's Crime and I am more inclined to slot that in for discard/lands/spells matter synergies. I have zero experience with the card though. Does it see play in a wide array of decks?
There's not really a lot:
I love the Land Tax idea and may try it out even without Molten Vortex. As support and because I really like what Lotus Field brings to the cube, I've been toying with the idea of Lotus Vale. Land untappers, Balance, Flagstones of Trokair, Titania, Protector of Argoth and a bunch of others can really take advantage of it.
The big downside is that Wasteland, Flickerwisp and Vindicate are brutal without the hexproof. Are 3 cards enough for the Vale to be considered a trap? Maybe, especially when one of them is a highly sought after colorless card...
For those of you rocking Wildfire in higher powered cubes, do you have example deck lists you think are neat? I want to believe so badly as it would solve a bunch of my issues in Red.
Rrun two copies of Lotus Field, there's no reason not to duplicate if it's what you need.
I love Land Tax because it opens a ton of unique decks, like low-curve RW control or Tax Rack midrange.
I love Land Tax because it opens a ton of unique decks, like low-curve RW control or Tax Rack midrange.
Yeah, seems okay...but I think that is really the only deck that it'll pop in. Which is fine! but gruul lands doesn't need a lot of help as an archetype in my experience.
Raven's Crime is a bit of a pet card, but I enjoy the dynamic it brings to a game.
It typically goes into decks with The Raven Man, The Gitrog Monster, Life from the Loam, Young Pyromancer etc
At one time, it was fairly useful in Reanimator to get your fatty into the graveyard early. That's less of a concern now.
Other than that, it will see play in low cmc aggro on occasion. Decks that don't need more than 3 mana on tap are happy to pitch excess lands to keep the opponent's hand down. I like it in with Inti, Seneschal of the Sun and Anje's Ravager.
I like that you can tutor for it via Entomb. Few things are as satisfying as the build your own Mind Twist with Life from the Loam
Wildfire is not in my current draft
