General Popular Unpowered Cube Offenders

[Diakonov]

So I'm planning to sell a lot of my cards which aren't in my cube, but I'm having some internal conflict about which cards might eventually make their way back into the cube. I'd like to hear people's thoughts about which cards should probably never again be considered.

I used to run an mtgsalvationy 720 unpowered cube, replete with Show and Tell, Eldrazi, Bribery, Tinker, etc. Since I've spent time here I've removed the "unfair" cards, shaved off the top 10% power/dumb level (Jitte, Wurmcoil, JtmS, etc.) and lowered my count to 540.

Here's what I own that I'm thinking should probably never return:

Mana Drain
Channel
Jace, Memory Adept
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
True-Name Nemesis
Show and Tell
Eureka
Natural Order
Mind Twist

Cards I'm less certain about:

Eldrazi
Balance
Armageddon
Jitte
Sword of X and Y
Batterskull
Skullclamp
Wurmcoil Engine
Nether Void
Sinkhole
Tinker
Bribery
Treachery
Plow Under
Recurring Nightmare
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Strip Mine
Upheaval
Black Vise

I might be forgetting a few, but that's a start. Thoughts? Other cards that do/don't belong on here?

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I think at its best, cubes should be goal based and, by itself, a power level isn't a goal. While trimming cards with a very high power level is PROBABLY useful for many people's cubes, that's not necessarily a given. The first step of cube design should be what you want to do, followed by picking the cards that help you do it. I think many people would be better served by building up there cube from zero cards to their goal rather then starting with 10,000+ and slashing down. In other words, you shouldn't cut sol ring because its too good, you should simply not include it because making 2 permanent mana for 1 colorless doesn't fit the resource constraints you envision.

That said, I understand what you are asking and why you are asking it, though, and a general list of "problematic cards" does have some merit. Let's see if we can organize them into categories. If you want to sort those categories into tiers, that could be arranged. Feel free to add to this list

Resource System Violation: Alpha Moxes, Sol Ring, Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, Dark Ritual, Coalition Relic, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Eureka, Show and Tell, Channel, Tinker, Elvish Piper, Natural Order, Jorga Treespeaker, Rofellos, Jack-in-the-Mox, Stoneforge Mystic (kinda), Mana Drain, Academy Rector, Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dad, Exhume

Overly Mana Efficient Effect: Ancestral Recall, Balance, Demonic Tutor, Timewalk, Strip Mine, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Snuff Out, Dismember, Mind Twist, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Mana Drain

Rapid Value Generation: Jitte, Skullclamp, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Recurring Nightmare, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Grave Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Mimic Vat,

GRBS: True Name Nemesis, Swords of X and Y, Armageddon, Nether Void, , Smokestack, Braids, Cabal Minion, Upheaval, Plow Under, Sunder, Maze of Ith, Moat, Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, Jace, Memory Adept, Invisible Stalker, Splinter Twin, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Earthcraft, (Insert any key combo card here)

 

[Tom]

I dunno... Unless I really needed the cash I'd probably just stick those in the closet. Kinda cool to have a stash of the most broken cards in history laying around, and you wouldn't have to worry about selling something you needed.

The only one on your list I play is Balance. I probably would play Jace, the Mind Sculptor if I had him. And maybe Elspeth.

 

[Eric Chan]

On your second list, I'd hang onto:

• Eldrazi
• Bribery
• Treachery
• Plow Under
• Jace, The Mind Sculptor

The Eldrazi are actually pretty fun, if you support some kind of colourless ramp strategy, like the Cloudpost utility pile that Jason & co. are experimenting with. The next three cards aren't really overpowered - especially not Bribery in faster cubes - though I understand they can sometimes lead to unfun game states. But I'd keep them handy because they're fun in small doses. Here, most of us have found that Jace is more than manageable, especially in environments where aggro is well supported. Elspeth, on the other hand...

 

[FlowerSunRain]

<--- #1 Jace hater on the forum.

On the list, I think the mana denial cards (Sinkhole ,Nether Void, Plow Under and Armageddon) aren't too powerful, but can be legitimately frustrating in the wrong environment.

 

[anotak]

i think wurmcoil and batterskull can be fine in the right environment but not many environments are that one

 

[Diakonov]

I think at its best, cubes should be goal based and, by itself, a power level isn't a goal. While trimming cards with a very high power level is PROBABLY useful for many people's cubes, that's not necessarily a given. The first step of cube design should be what you want to do, followed by picking the cards that help you do it. I think many people would be better served by building up there cube from zero cards to their goal rather then starting with 10,000+ and slashing down. In other words, you shouldn't cut sol ring because its too good, you should simply not include it because making 2 permanent mana for 1 colorless doesn't fit the resource constraints you envision.

I agree completely. My original statement is the simplified version of how I revised my cube. In reality, I started to rebuild it from the ground up, got lazy, and ended up throwing in old favorites about halfway through.

That said, I understand what you are asking and why you are asking it, though, and a general list of "problematic cards" does have some merit.

Yeah, this is mainly what I am trying to accomplish. Essentially a list of cards which would be too oppressive no matter what future permutation my cube may take.

I like your idea of organizing them by type. Here's how I would tier them in order of likely oppressiveness...

Resource System Violation

Sol Ring
Black Lotus
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Rofellos
Natural Order
Tinker

Show and Tell
Eureka
Alpha Moxes
Grim Monolith
Channel
Mana Drain

Reanimate
Animate Dead
Dance of the Dead
Exhume

Mox Diamond
Dark Ritual
Coalition Relic
Chrome Mox
Ancient Tomb
Joraga Treespeaker
*Stoneforge Mystic
Necromancy

City of Traitors
Elvish Piper
Academy Rector

Overly Mana Efficient Effect

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Timewalk
Strip Mine
Mind Twist
Mana Drain

Hymn to Tourach
Sinkhole

Demonic Tutor
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Snuff Out
Dismember
Treachery

Rapid Value Generation

Jitte
Skullclamp
Recurring Nightmare
Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Grave Titan
Wurmcoil Engine
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Mimic Vat

GRBS (I assume this means non-interactive)

True Name Nemesis
Moat
Jace, Memory Adept
Mind Twist
Sword of Body and Mind

Sword of X and Y (besides body/mind)
Armageddon
Nether Void
Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale

Sinkhole
Hymn to Tourach
Smokestack
Braids, Cabal Minion
Sunder
Upheaval
Plow Under
Maze of Ith
Invisible Stalker

*Splinter Twin
*Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker
*Earthcraft

* = requires a specific card to be oppressive


My play group in particular hates cards that are capable of doing absurd things with very little set up (often luck-based). Bribery has exited my cube for this reason. Plow Under has been another that's received a lot of complaints recently for creating noninteractive states.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

GRBS stands for Game Ruing Bullshit, which probably isn't the right term for it, but those are cards that are powerful in how they remove the other players ability to play in some way. Maybe the combo cards should be a different category.

 

[CML]

i think wurmcoil and batterskull can be fine in the right environment but not many environments are that one

quick why did nobody play Wurmcoil Engine in Standard for like a year??

...



I dunno what y'all are on about re. Mimic Vat, it's kinda bad and totally hilarious. I'm also a big fan of (among other cards) JTMS, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, and I tend to think Moat, TNN, Jitte, Recurring Nightmare etc. are miserable in most every list, but one thing I'm enjoying about this thread is how everybody's definitions are different, and trying to figure out which are due to contextual factors, which are due to misapprehension of a card's power level, and which are due to taste, good or bad.

Look, we need to talk about the 10 most oppressive cards in the average unpowered list; file them under "resource system violation."

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I run or have enjoyed running a lot of the cards I listed.

I also don't run any mana rocks because fuck all those cards. If you want to ramp, play Remote Farm or go home!

 

[Tom]

Resource System Violation...


?

 

[Tom]

(I'm trying to determine what makes the signets so oppressive. Surely it's not just ramping one?)

 

[CML]

ramp + fixing for two colors = everyone plays them. they're also fixing of a very 'control' variety and are responsible for the '5c goodstuff fallacy's popularity. a signet is nearly always a first-pick in pauper cube and is often a bad pass in one of our cubes (or would be if we ran 'em),Dom's thread on Ravnica standard decks is instructive. like imagine standard right now with signets.

signets are legacy-playable too!

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Ramping by one while fixing colors in a manner that only a subset of strategies can properly utilize and providing immediate man making it only cost effectively one mana when dropped later. Among other things, this makes double signets on 3 possible leaving you mana one 2 for a blocker or removal.

 

[Tom]

I think the biggest problems with signets are:
1) They are colorless.
2) There are 10 of them.
I'm considering dropping them from my cube mainly because it marginalizes green.

In general I'll take as much color fixing as I can get, but I see what you mean about only being useful for mid/aggro.

 

[Diakonov]

What do people think of the Diamond mana rocks? (Sky Diamond, Charcoal Diamond, etc.)

 

[Tom]

What do people think of the Diamond mana rocks? (Sky Diamond, Charcoal Diamond, etc.)

Seem cool I guess. They remind me of these guys:

I like that you have the option to run 5 and still be color balanced (as opposed to 10 signets).

EDIT: I'd rather run these for the color fixing.

 

[Chris Taylor]

 

[Jason Waddell]

On your second list, I'd hang onto:

• Eldrazi
• Bribery
• Treachery
• Plow Under
• Jace, The Mind Sculptor

The Eldrazi are actually pretty fun, if you support some kind of colourless ramp strategy, like the Cloudpost utility pile that Jason & co. are experimenting with. The next three cards aren't really overpowered - especially not Bribery in faster cubes - though I understand they can sometimes lead to unfun game states. But I'd keep them handy because they're fun in small doses. Here, most of us have found that Jace is more than manageable, especially in environments where aggro is well supported. Elspeth, on the other hand...

Play Primal Command instead of Plow Under. More fun, more build-aroundy, less feel-bad.

 

[CML]

Ugh Manalith and Keyrunes (and Obelisks) make you realize what a tough design spot mana rocks are in, they should cost around 2.5 but there are few good ways to design them at 2 and 3

 

[Jason Waddell]

Ugh Manalith and Keyrunes (and Obelisks) make you realize what a tough design spot mana rocks are in, they should cost around 2.5 but there are few good ways to design them at 2 and 3

Mind Stone?

 

[Changling Bob]

What if the signets (or whatever) cipt?

 

[OCPunisher]

Play Primal Command instead of Plow Under. More fun, more build-aroundy, less feel-bad.

This. I recently cut Plow Under from my list because no one ever played it, but everyone in my group likes Primal Command.

From your original list, I think the following cards could be just fine in a cube if their end-results were closely monitored:


If you load your cube with all sorts of bad ass mothers who don't take no crap outta no one, then obviously these things can get out of hand and probably aren't fun. But, if you are able to manage how often they pump out fatties and how bad those fatties can be, they're probably fine. Natural Order seems like the least offensive one of this group because it's harder to draw/tutor for it and it requires the most setup.

Bribery and Treachery are fine cards, no reason to cut them. They only really work against opponents who have something worth stealing.

 

[Chris Taylor]

It sorta weirds me out that I ever thought bribery was insane. It's a random 5 drop creature. VERY rarely are you stealing 7+ drops with it, and some of those 7 drops aren't even good early. And it's downright AWFUL against aggro

OCPunisher, I'd agree with basically every card on that list (Though this requires a fine touch of targets, and may not be worth it in the end)
Except recurring nightmare. The multiple times per turn, inability to interact with it, and unrestricted targeting makes it a little too much I've realized.
I can't remember who said it, but someone here had it erratta'd to only return during the upkeep, and it was still insane.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I can't remember who said it, but someone here had it erratta'd to only return during the upkeep, and it was still insane.

That was me, however I didn't say the new version was "still insane" I said it was "completely playable".

However, if you take a card and nerf the everloving shit out of it (vulnerable to removal, one turn delay, no multiple plays in the same turn) and its still completely playable, that's still a pretty harsh indictment of the original.