Yeah, I didn't mean to say it's the new Rancor, just that its form of recursion has some upsides when you compare it to known Cube force Rancor. I'd run it in any Cube less powerful than my MTGS cube, because I love enchantment themes, but it's no Rancor.
Sets Shadows over Innistrad Spoilers Thread
- Thread starter whydirt
- Start date
So what are people thinking, about including a discard & madness themes in their cubes, and potentially going heavier on graveyard interactions? Is this worth overhauling the cube for somewhat, or are the discard outlets and madness spells mostly a pass?
gryffs boon, avacyns judgment are nice. geistblast is weak on the front end but i like it. i like the incidental pieces thought scour, forbidden alchemy, satyr wayfinder, vessel of nascency, autumn gloom. doesnt seem they tried to push too many madness or flashback cards. is under the floorboard good? not creature and smaller and tapped body than thragtusk but discard advantage, life gain in black. we just got forgotten creation, geralfs masterpiece, heir of falkenwrath, elusive tormentor for outlets. does this seem stronger. ah i see higher ceiling. but the lifegain is kind of neutralized by cipt. i think i like the upfront cost and positioning of floorboards more. gisas bidding seems insane on the madness end
It may not be rancor, but it's closer than most enchantments out there, no? And flying can be better than trample in some cases, especially in things white does already.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I think both of those zombie makers are playable. The madness burn cards are all playable (Temper, Violent Eruption, and the new red one). The new madness infest is probably terrible, mostly because most of the looters are creatures and it'll kill them. The new black 3/5 vampire with madness blocks like a stud. A couple of the other choices have some utility if you go deep on it. Tormenting voice into Reckless Wurm does net you a card, but that card costs 5 mana and is a 4/4 trample. It doesn't see worth building around in most environments. Now casting it off of a Lotleth Troll discard is much better, but it brings us to the main stumbling block in the theme. The enablers are in other colors. Most of the red cards that enable cost one (usually more) mana to activate, which makes it hard to get these cards on the table in time. I suppose its ok that the best enablers require you to out of color. Liliana is the big name exception here, but that's not a card I'd ever want to double up on. I could see doubling up on Faithless Looting.
This would have been a fun enabler if it didn't cost fucking 4.
This would have been a fun enabler if it didn't cost fucking 4.
Yeah if that axe were 
I'd run it. That's how much of an upgrade it would take though...
I'd run it. That's how much of an upgrade it would take though...
I'm developing a new cube. It'll be a minute before I finish it enough to post (waiting for mtgjson and cubetutor among other things) and even longer before it gets to paper for me to post results/impressions but for what it's worth I'm going to try it out.
The goal is for River Kelpie to be first pickable without being a build-around. We'll see if that happens.
I think I'm focusing more on a small delirium theme. Don't really like many of the new madness spells besides Avacyn's judgement. Delirium can benefit from some of the same discard outlets but also from nifty cube design decisions. Cards like:
seal of fire
Seal of doom
Soul snare
Aether spellbomb
Terrarion
Rotting rats
Lightning axe
Courser of kruphux
Tidehollow sculler
Can really help build a solid graveyard with the requisite 4 types without changing too much about the performance of the cube. And can help incidental other themes like constellation.
Delirium cards I like are probably:
Scourge wolf
Topple geist
To the slaughter
Tarmogoyf
Inexorable blob, maybe.
Hope they print more delirium in Eldritch Moon, it's a cool mechanic
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Delirium seems like threshold except a little different, probably in a good way?
Afaik the idea was to make a "fixed" threshhold? I think it's definitely better. Rewards creative deck building more than threshhold, imo. And cube building, for that matter
I've thought more on Gryff's Boon which I initially wrote off and I think it's a must include for me (heroic enabler and enchantress). I know it costs a lot to cast from the graveyard, but this thing costs one less than flashback on Silent Departure, does something in the same vein (instead of removing a blocker, you grant one of your dudes evasion), and you can just keep using the damn thing as long as you have a target. I'm replacing Griffin Guide, which is a good card I'm sad to lose, but I've only got so much room for these types of cards unfortunately. Anybody think this is crazy talk?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
lol I think thats crazy.
I would have to look at your enchantments module, but there is a long line of enablers I would want to consider before making that swap, and the only reason to gryff over guide is because the upside as a pure enabler is that huge: as in it basically makes those decks function or pushes them up a tier. Griffin guide is a card that adds serious muscle to those decks, and is a powerful enabler in its own right. In a vacuum, for heroic in particular, I would much rather be suiting up a heroic creature with griffin guide than gryff, as the heroic decks are ultimately just voltron decks, and guide works better on that axis for what those decks want to do.
I would be interested in seeing the case laid out, but that seems like a really uphill struggle for gryff.
I think something everyone is forgetting is exactly how significant the difference between +1 +0 and +2 +0 is: the best representative of which is the power disparity between bone saw and bonesplitter.
I would have to look at your enchantments module, but there is a long line of enablers I would want to consider before making that swap, and the only reason to gryff over guide is because the upside as a pure enabler is that huge: as in it basically makes those decks function or pushes them up a tier. Griffin guide is a card that adds serious muscle to those decks, and is a powerful enabler in its own right. In a vacuum, for heroic in particular, I would much rather be suiting up a heroic creature with griffin guide than gryff, as the heroic decks are ultimately just voltron decks, and guide works better on that axis for what those decks want to do.
I would be interested in seeing the case laid out, but that seems like a really uphill struggle for gryff.
I think something everyone is forgetting is exactly how significant the difference between +1 +0 and +2 +0 is: the best representative of which is the power disparity between bone saw and bonesplitter.
that sounds like a solid switch. I'm thinking of taking out Myth Realized for it myself, because that card can be quite awkward, and Gryff's Boon can actually help the spells archetype quite a bit (give seeker/pyromancer/mentor/any number of the leftover tokens wiiiings).
Great enchant for 'double strike' too, as you point out for your heroic theme. T3 Fabled Hero -> T4 Gryff's Boon with Emerge Unscathed/God's willing mana easily up. Attack with your 4/3 flying double strike dood (5/4 if you use a protection spell).
Sounds like I'll need to test this. The 2/2 flying token that gets left behind by guide is relevant. And I'm not sure how many triggers you can realistically get with Gryff's Boon. I appreciate the input everyone. If anyone else tests this, I'd love to hear how it goes. The card is certainly interesting.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
So is the difference between one and three mana. I mean, Kor Scythemaster has +1 power and a relevant ability over Elite Vanguard, but that doesn't mean it's the better card. I'm starting to wonder if someone's paying you to badmouth this card, because all you've been doing is crushing people's optimistic views of it without any actual testing results to back up your pessimism, which is quite out of character for you
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So is the difference between one and three mana. I mean, Kor Scythemaster has +1 power and a relevant ability over Elite Vanguard, but that doesn't mean it's the better card. I'm starting to wonder if someone's paying you to badmouth this card, because all you've been doing is crushing people's optimistic views of it without any actual testing results to back up your pessimism, which is quite out of character for you
1 page ago people were talking about how adept comparisons between gyrff and rancor were: let us not be disingenuous in the way we evaluate cards just because of a little hype, and here is another perfect example.
Griffin Guide generates 4 evasive power for 3 mana. For Gryff's boon to generate 4 evasive power, it requires a mana investment of 13 mana. Boon is far below the power threshed of guide, let alone rancor, which is why I made the recommendation to ahadaban that I did: that to justify that level of mana inefficiency the synergy rewards of a rate of four mana to give something +1 +0 and flying have to be massive to offset that cost: otherwise it is not playable. And this is just basic efficiency math.
We shouldn't just forgot everything we know about how the game works because its an exciting spoiler season. Testing is a time consuming process, and there is nothing wrong with coming back down to earth to help decide whether a card is worth that time investment.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Oh enough already with the negativity! I wasn't going to put it in, but you leave me no choice!
You're not even trying to find any redeeming qualities in Gryff's Boon. For one, it's two mana cheaper than Griffin Guide, which means you can develop your board at the same time you're creating an evasive threat. Also, the second evasive threat created by Griffin Guide will always be a 2/2, whereas the second evasive threat created by Gryff's Boon will most likely be bigger, because chances are you're not enchanting a 1/1 Soldier token with it. Who knows? It might even be better at closing out a game than Griffin Guide, and apperently I'm going to find out!
You're not even trying to find any redeeming qualities in Gryff's Boon. For one, it's two mana cheaper than Griffin Guide, which means you can develop your board at the same time you're creating an evasive threat. Also, the second evasive threat created by Griffin Guide will always be a 2/2, whereas the second evasive threat created by Gryff's Boon will most likely be bigger, because chances are you're not enchanting a 1/1 Soldier token with it. Who knows? It might even be better at closing out a game than Griffin Guide, and apperently I'm going to find out!
Honestly, I think y'all are somewhat mis-evaluating some of the things this cute little aura can do:
Anyway, I'll gladly take up the mantle of testing myself. I've got a good slot for it that I haven't been happy with, my drafters have no bias towards either yet, and my format's a little slower. Hopefully I can see some data soon!
EDIT: And glad to see Onder is taking up that mantle with me. Also good points from him!
- its cheaper up front. Can be sequenced in the same turn with other spells. On curve T3 you could go Boon -> Thalia, for instance. This is important. In the ahadabans heroic.dec, you can target the creature with another spell in the same turn, or build more board presence, or save up protection.
- imo, the evasion is the important part. The recursion mode of Boon gives evasion to new bodies! It's not just a 1/0 flying gryff for 4.
- it can be self-milled, discarded, countered, destroyed off the board, and still used.
Anyway, I'll gladly take up the mantle of testing myself. I've got a good slot for it that I haven't been happy with, my drafters have no bias towards either yet, and my format's a little slower. Hopefully I can see some data soon!
EDIT: And glad to see Onder is taking up that mantle with me
. Also good points from him!
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
It doesn't trigger heroic, but it does trigger constellation.
I like the card better then Ethereal Armor, which I've happily played in the past. I think it'll perform comparably to Wordmail and Hyena Umbra, both of which I run. I like that these three cards have vastly different pros and cons, giving you a lot of variety out of what on the surface is basically the "same card".
I like the card better then Ethereal Armor, which I've happily played in the past. I think it'll perform comparably to Wordmail and Hyena Umbra, both of which I run. I like that these three cards have vastly different pros and cons, giving you a lot of variety out of what on the surface is basically the "same card".
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Hyena umbra seems like the most reasonable analogy so far, though I still think I like that better than gryff unless you're looking specifically for enchantment triggers. Depending on what and how much you are triggering that could justify the 4cc investment to recur it.
FWIW, I didn't like Hyena Umbra when I ran it. And I think Gryff's Boon is better because flying > FS and (IMO at least) being able to recur it is better than the totem effect. I really don't think 4 mana is too much for the effect. I could be completely off base here, but I'm basing it off of how often I've seen Silent Departure flashed back. Granting a dude you have flying and +1/+0 late in the game could be the difference between being able to attack and being stonewalled. Not exactly like bouncing an opponents blocker, but I feel like it might be close.
Right, I ran Hyena Umbra for a while and was generally underwhelmed, but Gryff's Boon getting the patented FSR Seal of Approval is making me reconsider it. I suspect that in about 50% of the games where it's drawn, the pilot won't ever have time to think about, let alone use, the activated ability, so for me the power level of the aura is contingent on that initial bonus. Thankfully, for +1/+0 and flying is a pretty decent rate, as evasion tends to be much more useful in board stalls than first strike, and can represent far more than the one printed damage.
for +1/+0 and flying is a pretty decent rate, as evasion tends to be much more useful in board stalls than first strike, and can represent far more than the one printed damage.