Card/Deck Shit Thread: Planeswalker Tier List
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
CML
Contributor
Big Elspeth is very good, I don't mind running it but you might find some other card you prefer for that slot
Nissa is fine, I'd run her over the kinda OP Primal Hunter
The last three are not great, I include Kiora to have a Simic card but it's not very interesting, you just kinda tick up to Krakens if you can. I might try Sarkhan but there are enough red 5's already (Thundermaw, Kiki, Conscripts, Siege-Gang all not cards I want to cut) -- I can't imagine making room for new Sorin either.
Steadfast is uninspiring
Jace TLG is obviously bad
We've been trying Liliana Vess and it's a lot of fun
Ob Nixy worth looking at
Nissa is fine, I'd run her over the kinda OP Primal Hunter
The last three are not great, I include Kiora to have a Simic card but it's not very interesting, you just kinda tick up to Krakens if you can. I might try Sarkhan but there are enough red 5's already (Thundermaw, Kiki, Conscripts, Siege-Gang all not cards I want to cut) -- I can't imagine making room for new Sorin either.
Steadfast is uninspiring
Jace TLG is obviously bad
We've been trying Liliana Vess and it's a lot of fun
Ob Nixy worth looking at
What does everyone else think of Primal Hunter? He has been feeling a bit OP lately.
Edit: I've been considering squadroning three Nissa's Chosen's onto Nissa Revane as a pick.
Edit2: I might scale back to only one walker per mono-color as well.
I'm trying out an artifact theme, so we'll see how Daretti goes.
With regard to the gold walkers, I'm surprised that people aren't into Vraska. I find her kind of interesting. Her + can create some difficult choices for the opponent, and her ult is kinda cool.
Edit: I've been considering squadroning three Nissa's Chosen's onto Nissa Revane as a pick.
Edit2: I might scale back to only one walker per mono-color as well.
I'm trying out an artifact theme, so we'll see how Daretti goes.
With regard to the gold walkers, I'm surprised that people aren't into Vraska. I find her kind of interesting. Her + can create some difficult choices for the opponent, and her ult is kinda cool.
I also forgot to ask for opinions about this guy
I haven't tested him, but gut reaction is that he sucks. The +2 is barely noticeable as an effect, the -2 is fine but boring, and the emblem is kinda neat but takes fooooooreeeeeverrr. He's got less modes than Ajani Goldmane, and the mode he does have is less interesting. Pass.
Yes, Primal Hunter is really obnoxious. As Jason likes to point out, any walker that pluses to make tokens throws up a Big Red Flag. This guy makes beefy tokens, which makes him tough to interact with, which in turn means you soon have half a dozen beefy tokens to deal with. Between being difficult to cast, and annoying when he is cast, I'm no longer a big fan of Big Garruk.
The four mana Garruks are awesome, though.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Co-sign what Eric said.
My opponent going T2 Mana Vault T3 Garruk, Caller of Beasts -> Progenitus yesterday was a perfect summary of the Holiday Cube. Merry Christmas! *reaches for bottle*
My opponent going T2 Mana Vault T3 Garruk, Caller of Beasts -> Progenitus yesterday was a perfect summary of the Holiday Cube. Merry Christmas! *reaches for bottle*
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, that sounds like real fun! :/
How do we feel about ?
She seems like a more fair Garruk, Primal Hunter. I'd like to try her for nostalgia's sake, if nothing else.
?She seems like a more fair Garruk, Primal Hunter. I'd like to try her for nostalgia's sake, if nothing else.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'm on the fence. I want to like her, but her +2 seems superfluous if you were able to cast her, her -2 is a really, really expensive Naturalize, and het -6 is probably on par with a Tidings... with suspend 2. Of course that ultimate is plenty playable in a green shell, so I'm curious whether she's as janky as she looks. Please let me know 
She's bad. Period. Maybe even the worst of the 5 commander walkers. If you want a decent replacement for Primal Hunter, there's plenty of other garruks. There's also Nissa now, so that's something.
I also forgot to ask for opinions about this guy
Unholy bump. What was the word on this guy? I've picked up a copy and don't know if I want to both running him or have him look pretty in a binder.
Walker-wise I am at:
Plus the new flip-walkers.
The cube I wana make is still like 2x walkers per Colour at something like 400 and honestly I've usually got a cub able replacement walker on the back of my mind. Walkers should be good but easy to deal with, especially if you are trying to make creatures more relevant.
Does anyone else feel like they are on average more motivated to make black cards than for other 2D struggling colors?
Does anyone else feel like they are on average more motivated to make black cards than for other 2D struggling colors?
So I (and I think others, as well) have been kinda down on planeswalkers lately, but I recently played a match against a player who ran a Grixis control deck featuring Jace Beleren, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, that might have changed my mind on the subject. Thanks to buckets of card draw, he often had more than one planeswalker on the board at a time - Super Friends, reunite! - but as the opponent, it was a fun, puzzling challenge to figure out what lines to follow, which planeswalkers to attack and which to ignore, and whether to try and get a handle on the board state or just go in for the kill. I didn't win the game where he cast both Jace and Nicol Bolas, but I managed to squeak by barely in the next game against Jace and Sarkhan.
My theory is that the reason both my opponent and I found the back and forth interaction with his multiple planeswalkers exhilarating is that a) they're all admittedly of a middling power level, save for possibly baby Jace, and b) none of those three planeswalkers clog up the board with annoying tokens. If you'd asked me before that day, I thought I'd hate the idea of Super Friends existing in my cube; but when the deck actually came together under those specific conditions, it was all upside, all the time.
My next experiment is to bump back up the number of total number of walkers in my cube, while keeping the majority of them at a power of level of Middling, or below. Basically, if a player casts two of these planeswalkers in the same game, their opponent shouldn't automatically throw their hands up in disgust. Which walkers are in that 'middling' tier, without being either totally useless or too narrow? My first stab:
My theory is that the reason both my opponent and I found the back and forth interaction with his multiple planeswalkers exhilarating is that a) they're all admittedly of a middling power level, save for possibly baby Jace, and b) none of those three planeswalkers clog up the board with annoying tokens. If you'd asked me before that day, I thought I'd hate the idea of Super Friends existing in my cube; but when the deck actually came together under those specific conditions, it was all upside, all the time.
My next experiment is to bump back up the number of total number of walkers in my cube, while keeping the majority of them at a power of level of Middling, or below. Basically, if a player casts two of these planeswalkers in the same game, their opponent shouldn't automatically throw their hands up in disgust. Which walkers are in that 'middling' tier, without being either totally useless or too narrow? My first stab:
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Tamiyo is very good, I think you're underestimating her. Garruk Wildspeaker is a fun planeswalker, as are all of the flipwalkers!
Garruk Wildspeaker is arguably my favourite planeswalker of all time - he's well-designed, versatile, flavourful, and at a great power level without being oppressive. There's no way he's middling, though!
Ashiok was pretty insane here against any big green deck, so they're swingier than most of the other walkers in that tier. I always thought Tamiyo was more cute than impressive, but I guess I'll keep her on the sidelines if she's as good as you guys say.
I really like the Nissa, Vastwood Seer suggestion - she sounds perfect!
Ashiok was pretty insane here against any big green deck, so they're swingier than most of the other walkers in that tier. I always thought Tamiyo was more cute than impressive, but I guess I'll keep her on the sidelines if she's as good as you guys say.
I really like the Nissa, Vastwood Seer suggestion - she sounds perfect!
CML
Contributor
I think baby Jace (or whatever you call the original one these days) is really good
Ashiok is super-unpleasant and quite good
The power often scales up more quickly than the mana costs, so for example Big Elspeth is ludicrously good
Another thing that makes walkers good in cube (good Elspeth > JTMS, e.g.) is having a ton of HP, which is the direction they're moving in for the most part. So like Tamiyo is very good.
I don't like any of the gold ones much except Venser, Ajani V is fine but borderline busted
I'd wholeheartedly encourage everyone to play Flamecaller since red has no other real 6 drops except Inferno Titan, it doesn't have a lot of HP, and it's a dope effect for that amount of mana
I'd try all the SOI ones but they're the kinds of cards you end up taking for a few spins and removing
I had a crisis of confidence with my Cube design like 6 months ago though so scio me nihil scire
Ashiok is super-unpleasant and quite good
The power often scales up more quickly than the mana costs, so for example Big Elspeth is ludicrously good
Another thing that makes walkers good in cube (good Elspeth > JTMS, e.g.) is having a ton of HP, which is the direction they're moving in for the most part. So like Tamiyo is very good.
I don't like any of the gold ones much except Venser, Ajani V is fine but borderline busted
I'd wholeheartedly encourage everyone to play Flamecaller since red has no other real 6 drops except Inferno Titan, it doesn't have a lot of HP, and it's a dope effect for that amount of mana
I'd try all the SOI ones but they're the kinds of cards you end up taking for a few spins and removing
I had a crisis of confidence with my Cube design like 6 months ago though so scio me nihil scire
So I guess it is time to do an updated tier list?
I'm game!
Note that this is just personal preference. I thought it would be a fun process just to list them all out and see how I evaluate them all. I tried and keep my cube to the middling tiers with a couple of strong card in the gold section (Ashiok is nuts). I realize I have Jace VP in my cube and have labelled him as unpassable. He hasn't taken over a game at this point but I might want to keep a close eye on him. The card just does so much.
I'm game!
CML
Contributor
downgrade ugin, maybe karn; upgrade gideon jura maybe; downgrade liliana of the veil; upgrade primal hunter; downgrade kioras, apex predator, daretti, 5-mana lilly, sarkhan vol, ral zarek; downgrade 4-mana lilly and narset and vraska; upgrade sarkhan the mad and maybe tezz the seeker;
I like that attempt to categorize all of the walkers, Kirblinx - a much more daunting task nowadays than when this thread started two years ago!
I think you're basically on the money, but I would probably tweak these upwards by a tier, or more:
And bump these downwards a tier or two:
For my own cube list, I think I want all my walkers to be either Good or Average, split about 50/50, and with nothing at Strong or above.
I think you're basically on the money, but I would probably tweak these upwards by a tier, or more:
And bump these downwards a tier or two:
For my own cube list, I think I want all my walkers to be either Good or Average, split about 50/50, and with nothing at Strong or above.
There is so much to take into account with these that it is almost an impossible task, where there will be endless debate as to put what where.
I can see the downgrades for all the 6+ CMC walkers if you have a pretty low curve cube, as they wouldn't be as playable.
CML saying to upgrade Gideon Jura to broken seems a bit extreme. He is very strong but not oppressively so (not more than big Elspeth anyway).
Both you two seem to like Sarkhan the Mad, which is nice to see someone cares about the poor guy. Just like me with Chandra Ablaze. She should probably be under Reject Rare, but I like her a little too much.
In saying all of that, I did just shift around some cards on the list (and add Dack Fayden, as the greatest theif in the multiverse snuck past me last time). Still have way too many cards in the 'Average Middling' section that I should probably knock down, but I am not ruthless enough to make cuts. Also hard to figure out what to bump up to strong. Curse you tiered sciences! I can't handle you!