Chris Taylor
Contributor
I actually really like that card as Pryoclaysm + Shatter, and that it's a card your average red aggro deck probably wants
Could be wrong tho
Could be wrong tho
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I don't know how to back lucas up on this without sounding awkward, talking cross formats and power levels and what not, but I kind of stumbled across that concern when I was grid drafting with kirblinx, with these decks.
The draft went kind of awkward for me, and I ended up with a worse removal suite than I'm used to having, and an uncomfortable bulge at my three drop spot. It was an ok deck, but it was very sensitive to draw strength, so despite the seemingly overpowering top end, there was a large 1-3 drop sized hole for an aggro deck to punch through (and kirblinx didn't have a particularly exciting aggro deck). My best hands, i.m.o, were ones where I could line up an early devour flesh on a singular target, which he would (hopefully) have a hard time following up with.
But anyways, what I am trying to say, is that we would have games where he would apply early pressure, but I would have an awkward draw, and end up at fairly low life totals before getting out stabilizing lifegain cards: which is the point where the interactive game of magic would really begin. Usually, I like to have my control or midrange decks interacting effectively throughout the curve, but thats not the deck this grid draft resulted in.
A card like fiery confluence, in that context where the control deck can be anticipated to reach low life totals before stabilizing (possibly due to a lack of effective early game interaction in the cube), would just be GRBS.
The draft went kind of awkward for me, and I ended up with a worse removal suite than I'm used to having, and an uncomfortable bulge at my three drop spot. It was an ok deck, but it was very sensitive to draw strength, so despite the seemingly overpowering top end, there was a large 1-3 drop sized hole for an aggro deck to punch through (and kirblinx didn't have a particularly exciting aggro deck). My best hands, i.m.o, were ones where I could line up an early devour flesh on a singular target, which he would (hopefully) have a hard time following up with.
But anyways, what I am trying to say, is that we would have games where he would apply early pressure, but I would have an awkward draw, and end up at fairly low life totals before getting out stabilizing lifegain cards: which is the point where the interactive game of magic would really begin. Usually, I like to have my control or midrange decks interacting effectively throughout the curve, but thats not the deck this grid draft resulted in.
A card like fiery confluence, in that context where the control deck can be anticipated to reach low life totals before stabilizing (possibly due to a lack of effective early game interaction in the cube), would just be GRBS.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
But is that the fault of Fiery Confluence or of the control deck drafter not picking up early interaction? Anyway, I'm watching it, but so far it hasn't been GRBS in any games.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think you misunderstand, I'm not making an objective judgment on fiery confluence, I'm making a context specific one. Certain formats shouldn't be giving that tool to their drafters, because of the way the games in that format flow.
The anecdote of a weird grid draft was just supposed to provide an illustration of a type of game pattern, where an effect like fiery confluence would be unfun.
I know the varying power levels of cubes here likely plays into this, but I'm honestly a little surprised by the reaction to the confluences (Fiery and Mystic). They are certainly powerful and above curve, but they are also just one-time effects. I've admittedly only seen each once or twice in action, and the effect was very good but it didn't feel GRBS on the level of say miracle mode Bonfire of the Damned (which just completely undoes a board state in ridiculous LOL fashion) or something ongoingly busted like a Recurring Nightmare or whatever.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think the big difference in experience is that you're doing mostly multiplayer, and multiplayer can naturally tolerate more powerful effects without them feeling busted.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Well, I do single player exclusively, and while Mystic Confluence was certainly borderline broken, Fiery Confluence wasn't. What I'm trying to say is that I think you should try it out before you judge the card. It's certainly powerful, but I don't think it deserves exclusion on purely theoretical complaints. It truly is a cross-archetype playable plus it's artifact removal that doesn't take up a dedicated slot. I remember when we were lamenting having to include Manic Vandal or cutting powerful artifacts so we didn't have to. This is one of those cards that says: "Sure, play cool artifacts, I got your back. And if you don't need to destroy artifacts, I still got your back, unlike Manic Vandal!"
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Right, but we're talking about fiery confluence within a specific context, not broadly. Nor are we saying it necessarily should even be excluded within that context: it might be better to just give control access to better early interaction, for example.
The card is kind of a platform for a broader discussion.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think you lost me...
I must have missed when this stopped being about our thoughts about Fiery Confluence in our cubes.On that subject
What does everyone think about having 4 mana deal six in their cubes? Seems kinda bullshit to me but I like the other modes attached.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Its in this post, but is a little tricky to see:
This has been kind of a recurring complaint in his posts for the last 8-12 months? But its basically that a lot of/small sample of riptide style cubes he plays feature poor control tools, and he is laying out criteria specific to certain cubes, but not all cubes.
In an environment where control has narrowing color range, clunky removal, and is facing down increasingly powerful early aggro drops, its likely to stabilize at a low life total. If, in conjunction with that, the cube has poor life gain tools (especially in black), fiery confluence just ends the game. This creates a matchup that feels very trite and unfun.
In that context, fiery confluence doesn't look like a good include (unless you tweak other parts of the cube). Thats pretty much it.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I'm not feeling fiery confluence for the above reasons. If a player stabilizes outside of bolt range, that should count for something.
Literally just ordered fiery confluence for my 35-moxen cube. I am looking forward to busting lots of moxen with it.
For the record, my group dynamic has changed since my close friend moved away. We do not play nearly as much multiplayer as we used to. More importantly though, I don't design my cube with the idea that I should (or even can) balance for multiplayer as I feel pretty strongly that the game of Magic does not work well with more than two players. I feel compelled to mention this because I've become known as the multiplayer guy and the vast majority of my comments are not geared towards that. I don't even really like multiplayer magic (two headed giant being the exception). It just so happened that my older group really did and so we often played that.
My opinion of Fiery and Mystic confluence is based on 1v1 testing and a couple live games I saw them resolved in. Are they both powerful cards? Yes. But so is everything else in our cubes.
If someone manages to do 14 points of damage to their opponent by T4 and plays Fiery, I really don't see what the problem is. That's a heck of a lot of damage the other guy let through or was simply unprepared for and I don't see that as being the fault of Fiery Confluence specifically. I do agree that there are balance factors to consider though. If Befoul is top end removal but you are also running Goblin Guide and a pile of 3 power 2 drops with evasion, I'd argue you have bigger balance problems than Fiery Confluence.
I also personally don't feel like control decks should just win the game if they stabilize, especially if they do so on 6 life or less. I much prefer games to be more dynamic than that with advantages switching back and forth. But this goes back to the Roshambo paradigm and where you fall philosophically on how much that should play into your meta. I'd prefer it didn't exist at all, but I recognize that certain strategies have advantages early and some late so it's impossible to remove completely. Still, I don't want games coming down to whether the aggressive guys does enough by T5 or the control guy makes it to 6 lands. Cube is capable of much more interesting games of Magic than that IMO.
My opinion of Fiery and Mystic confluence is based on 1v1 testing and a couple live games I saw them resolved in. Are they both powerful cards? Yes. But so is everything else in our cubes.
If someone manages to do 14 points of damage to their opponent by T4 and plays Fiery, I really don't see what the problem is. That's a heck of a lot of damage the other guy let through or was simply unprepared for and I don't see that as being the fault of Fiery Confluence specifically. I do agree that there are balance factors to consider though. If Befoul is top end removal but you are also running Goblin Guide and a pile of 3 power 2 drops with evasion, I'd argue you have bigger balance problems than Fiery Confluence.
I also personally don't feel like control decks should just win the game if they stabilize, especially if they do so on 6 life or less. I much prefer games to be more dynamic than that with advantages switching back and forth. But this goes back to the Roshambo paradigm and where you fall philosophically on how much that should play into your meta. I'd prefer it didn't exist at all, but I recognize that certain strategies have advantages early and some late so it's impossible to remove completely. Still, I don't want games coming down to whether the aggressive guys does enough by T5 or the control guy makes it to 6 lands. Cube is capable of much more interesting games of Magic than that IMO.
I wonder if you guys running fetch shock and having your control decks not stabilize quickly enough might be helped by swapping Hallowed Fountains for Tundras. I definitely endorse it, even though they're much better it's not like you'll ever have a Constructed manabase and that's like 4 more life for control decks to lose before it matters
I see a lot of concern for the 6 damage mode, but I've been playing this card:
in my cube forever with no regrets. Having a large burn spell floating around in the format creates some interesting mind games (and yeah, its a reshuffling instant with an exile clause on kill, but I haven't found any of those to be too relevant in practice). People enjoy casting it and nobody seems to be especially salty when they die to it which is more than I can say for some cards. I would probably be less inclined to run Fiery Confluence just because it is so much more flexible, but I don't think the 6 damage mode is what does that. But to each their own.
in my cube forever with no regrets. Having a large burn spell floating around in the format creates some interesting mind games (and yeah, its a reshuffling instant with an exile clause on kill, but I haven't found any of those to be too relevant in practice). People enjoy casting it and nobody seems to be especially salty when they die to it which is more than I can say for some cards. I would probably be less inclined to run Fiery Confluence just because it is so much more flexible, but I don't think the 6 damage mode is what does that. But to each their own.
I'm siding with "strong but very acceptable". Where in the discussion is the spell pierce, negate? How about duress, thoughtseize, transgress the mind, etc? It's not like the control deck is just walking into death, acceptance on their face.
And A+ on control decks interacting early, which I also think control decks should be doing. lone missionary, arashin cleric, wall of omens, etc. Stretch the "I'm at six life" until a little later, and you can use one of the suggestions above (or one of many others) to simply deny the confluence.
And we already run cheaper cards that can basically do the same thing. banefire, goblin bombardment, hellrider, falkenrath aristocrat, the list could go on.
And A+ on control decks interacting early, which I also think control decks should be doing. lone missionary, arashin cleric, wall of omens, etc. Stretch the "I'm at six life" until a little later, and you can use one of the suggestions above (or one of many others) to simply deny the confluence.
And we already run cheaper cards that can basically do the same thing. banefire, goblin bombardment, hellrider, falkenrath aristocrat, the list could go on.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think the important thing is you don't want the control pilots to feel like they are getting beat in the face for <x> turns, and than right when they stabilize and can actually start playing magic, boom six to the face. Stabilizing should feel like it can mean something.
Thats a bigger issue with an environment than just burn spells though.
There is also this guy, who deals similar damage more efficiently:
Thats a bigger issue with an environment than just burn spells though.
There is also this guy, who deals similar damage more efficiently:
It could also be that many environments have pushed aggro so hard (and taken away so much efficient removal), that drafting that strategy is super easy mode now. To the point where trying to draft control (that has the worst odds against aggro according to traditional Roshambo), simply isn't worth drafting anymore.
Back when Jackal Pup was the best red one drop and guys followed that up with Blood Knight and that was the nut draw, I completely understand why even poorly built control decks were ruling the roost in cube. That simply isn't what most modern cubes look like now. Even in lower powered versions, I'm pretty sure guys are able to put together fast and explosive aggressive decks that would trounce old JackalPup.dec. Has control really been given similar upgrades though (Titans withstanding)? It didn't need nearly as much help of course, but still. How limp is Wrath of God looking these days against so many aggressive strategies you see in cube? Isn't that a basic measure of how effective your control decks are going to be?
I'm not suggesting we go back to StP and Lightning bolt as the baseline for our removal suite or we take out those cool 3 power 2 drops. I'm just happy to see cards like the confluences personally. All we get these days are better and better creatures. And that's all fine and dandy, but how about some really awesome spell effects? I always felt that was what was most interesting about Magic - casting spells. Building creature armies is cool, but makes me feel less like an all powerful wizard dueling with another wizard and more like I'm playing a better version of Pokemon.
Back when Jackal Pup was the best red one drop and guys followed that up with Blood Knight and that was the nut draw, I completely understand why even poorly built control decks were ruling the roost in cube. That simply isn't what most modern cubes look like now. Even in lower powered versions, I'm pretty sure guys are able to put together fast and explosive aggressive decks that would trounce old JackalPup.dec. Has control really been given similar upgrades though (Titans withstanding)? It didn't need nearly as much help of course, but still. How limp is Wrath of God looking these days against so many aggressive strategies you see in cube? Isn't that a basic measure of how effective your control decks are going to be?
I'm not suggesting we go back to StP and Lightning bolt as the baseline for our removal suite or we take out those cool 3 power 2 drops. I'm just happy to see cards like the confluences personally. All we get these days are better and better creatures. And that's all fine and dandy, but how about some really awesome spell effects? I always felt that was what was most interesting about Magic - casting spells. Building creature armies is cool, but makes me feel less like an all powerful wizard dueling with another wizard and more like I'm playing a better version of Pokemon.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think you're reading too much into his post. His "I don't think we are having an in-context discussion right now" sentence seems to me like it referred to me mentioning this was just a glorified Lava Axe, which according to Lucre clearly isn't playable in the context of cube magic. Not in specific cubes, in cube magic. Which was exactly my point really. If your format can't handle a glorified Lava Axe, I think your cube has other problems. In that sense, I've been arguing the same things as ahadabans did, but with less words. I think you are the only one making this a discussion about Fiery Confluence in the context of specific, control-anemic cubes, which is fine, but doesn't invalidate my (or others') responses in regards to the original questions imho.
Anyway, to return to the discussion at hand. I agree that stabilizing should feel meaningful, but, and I think this is important, it shouldn't be a guaranteed safe place. I want the control player to feel on edge, like every decision matters. In a cube that doesn't provide enough reach to aggro decks, stabilizing at a low life is no different from stabilizing at a high life total. If your opponent can't punch through, what does it matter if you go down to 4 life or 14 life? You don't have to go into the think tank as much, because as long as you keep enough blockers back, there's no danger of losing after you stabilized. I for one don't regard 6 life as a safe spot, so I'm fine with Fiery Confluence being used as a Lava Axe every so often. I think it much more likely that my players will be like "ok, he got it, fair enough, but I still played well" than "how could Onder include such an unfair card in his cube, I stabilized at 6 life for crying out loud, that should mean something!" This feeling has only increased after cubing with FC a few times, like I said, but it's still only my opinion, feel free to disagree.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Exactly, and some cubes do have that problem (which are presumably following riptide specs based on the blocking side discussion) which means you should either provide more robust tools for control, or not run the card. Thats all the post read, and its pretty spot on i.m.o.
I don't think we're trying to invalidate anything, so much as just untangling a somewhat rambling post that had good insights in it.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
So we're basically just agreeing with arguments?
This card was super bonkers in my cube. Five mana is a lot, but all of the modes are relevant. It pretty much consistently performs better than Cryptic Command, which is scary really.
This card, however, was awesome at the prerelease! It's a lot of mana, the difference between 5 and 7 mana is more than two turns normally, but it embodies that satisfying glow of card advantage and tempo every blue mages craves for in his heart of hearts. To be honest, it felt like I was playing an old school rare every time I cast this (doing an inner fist pump every time). Love it and considering it for my cube!
This feels more and more like a nice ramp-incentive card to me. In the absence of tinker and abundant artifact mana, can it really ruin games?
Anybody have experience playing it without tinker?
On the topic of Fiery Confluence, It just makes me wish Slagstorm had a shatter mode.
Laz
Developer
8-mana should probably have that sort of effect on a game. I mean, Craterhoof Behemoth probably reads 'win the game' in more situations than Sundering Titan, so I doubt you are ruining too many games with it. Aetherling, Dragonlord Atarka or Angel of Serenity have pretty similar condensing effects on games at that sort of mana level, so Sundering Titan is probably ok. Reanimating any of the above is far less terrifying than reanimating a Sundering Titan though, so keep that in mind. Also if the Titan is instantly dealt with, then everyone is often limping around with not a lot of lands, which might prolong things.
This feels more and more like a nice ramp-incentive card to me. In the absence of tinker and abundant artifact mana, can it really ruin games?
I have to assume this reads 'deal 3 damage to each artifact.' (though more accurately, and less symmetrically, it probably reads 'destroy each artifact with CMC 3 or less.' which would be a pretty neat card.)
Super late to the party, but I completely agree with Grillo that Brimstone Volley is the card to worry about, not Fiery Confluence. When it was in my cube, it was literally only ever an instant speed Lava Axe for three mana. Besides being picked highly by the aggro drafters, they're the ones that have no problem triggering morbid in the late game, when they're happy to chump attack if that means five more points of reach. Direct all hand-wringing this way instead!
I've lost games after resolving a Sundering Titan. I've also been losing and then totally took over after resolving it too. There are times you lose more lands than you opponent. Sometimes your opponent has a way to chump block it forever and it's this big useless thing on your side of the table.
So I'd say it's got more variance to it than your typical fatty. IMO, it's a tier below the top end reanimation and tinker targets. Battlesphere is on par or more powerful IMO, though many may not agree with me on that. The earlier Titan comes out though the more powerful the LD effect, so proceed with caution if you are running Tinker or fast reanimator. If Dread Return is your cheapest reanimation effect, I think you are probably fine to run it provided you are above penny pincher power level.
So I'd say it's got more variance to it than your typical fatty. IMO, it's a tier below the top end reanimation and tinker targets. Battlesphere is on par or more powerful IMO, though many may not agree with me on that. The earlier Titan comes out though the more powerful the LD effect, so proceed with caution if you are running Tinker or fast reanimator. If Dread Return is your cheapest reanimation effect, I think you are probably fine to run it provided you are above penny pincher power level.