Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Eh, it's a 4/4 that they don't want to kill but have to if they don't want to die in many of my games. Sometimes I just run it out, and that does the trick. Of course his depends on the average size of creatures in your cube 
Genesis is one of the cards that made me love cube. It has literally been in every version of cube I've built. It's yardstick. If the card is too good or not good enough, my cube took a wrong turn design wise.
And I can confidently say that it's powerful enough for most of the cubes you guys are running too even if it doesn't look that way on paper. Card is a tad slow but very good, especially with lots of mana. It was literally a mainstay in max power cubing through about 2010.
Best use IMO is pairing it with Fauna Shaman/Survival of the Fittest. LFTL also works. But as previous poster mentioned, sometimes you just run it out on t4/5 and start swinging or chumping with it. 4/4 is still a good body and you are not that upset if it dies and takes something with it (or doesn't even if you have shriekmaw in your yard).
And I can confidently say that it's powerful enough for most of the cubes you guys are running too even if it doesn't look that way on paper. Card is a tad slow but very good, especially with lots of mana. It was literally a mainstay in max power cubing through about 2010.
Best use IMO is pairing it with Fauna Shaman/Survival of the Fittest. LFTL also works. But as previous poster mentioned, sometimes you just run it out on t4/5 and start swinging or chumping with it. 4/4 is still a good body and you are not that upset if it dies and takes something with it (or doesn't even if you have shriekmaw in your yard).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Great post from nick about one of my favorite cards:
I have had this card for forever in my cube reserves. I have had it in the cube plenty and I have played with it plenty but despite this over the last ten plus years of cube this card has never impressed me until now. This is pretty confusing to me as now when I look at the card I see a top end bomb. So, why is it I am suddenly of the opinion this is one of the strongest cards in magic while six months ago I wouldn't have taken much interest in the card. Was I wrong before? Am I over excited now? Nothing much has changed in the cube meta or with other cards that have suddenly specifically made this card more than what it once was. It is all down to me, my bias and my evaluations.
There were several bias failing me for evaluating this card. Some initial ones which I have since shaken off such as it being a gold card and having things that are better at its job already. Basically a long time ago I decided this was a fiddly convoluted gold spell for which better alternatives existed and as such never really revisited it. I have gotten far better at appreciating card quality and evaluating cards over the last five years of doing this blog. The thing is that I need to be thinking about cards and ideally using them to be evaluating them. I haven't with Lim-Dul's Vault and so my old evaluations of the card are the ones I believe. What has happened here is much like a TV program or a song that you liked when you were younger and haven't seen or heard in ages. When you actually do see/hear it again you suddenly realise your tastes have changed and you don't like it any more. With the Vault I thought it was weak and believed that was a valid assessment of the card despite being wildly out of date. There was nothing sudden about the changes in my appreciation for card quality, that was a gradual and steady progression. It is only apparent how significant of a change it is when I come to use a card like this again some years down the line.
Simply put, I was blown away by how potent Lim-Dul's Vault is. Just in shock that I could have ignored such a bomb for so long. On paper it does look worse than Vampiric or Demonic Tutor. You have to pay life, you lose card advantage and it is two colours and two mana. That is only part of the story however. While there are loads of two mana tutors that will get you a wide array of things without costing you life or card disadvantage other than Demonic Tutor, (Burning Wish, Eldamri's Call, Merchant's Scroll etc) none of them find any card. Only really black has tutors that find anything and of those there are only a handful that cost less than three. Often they have awkward hoops to jump through as well or just massive risks going on. Just being a two mana Vampiric Tutor is enough to be cube worthy and Lim-Dul's Vault is that.
Lim-Dul's Vault is to Vampiric Tutor what Lightning Helix is to Lightning Bolt. Good enough as a 3 point burn spell to be cube worthy and with some bonus value bolted on. Lim-Dul's Vault is pretty much Vampiric Tutor with Index bolted on. Now, both Index and Healing Salve are not good cards but that is because it is not worth losing a card for the effects. Throw "draw a card" onto either of those weak one mana spells and you have a really good spell. That is basically why Lightning Helix is good, it is a Healing Salve with "draw a card" on it, it just so happens that you always draw and play a Lightning Bolt.
Sage Owl isn't greatly playable because you don't wan't a Flying Man so the fact that you can get that Index plus draw a card feel is less exciting. You need to actively want one part of the card for the free bonus to kick in and be good. Vampiric Tutor is something a lot of people and archetypes want, much much more so than Flying Man. Due to the tutor being a thing you want the affect is that the Index portion of the card gains that free feeling.
At this point I should probably qualify my overly direct comparison with Vault and Vampiric. The latter is only ever two life. The Vault can be anywhere between zero and six life in cube. Although that range seems big I suspect the average life paid with Vault is lower than with Vampiric. It is only when you have a decent library size left and you need a specific single card and that card is right at the bottom that you might have to pay a bunch of life. If it is that urgent that early, odds on your are going to win or not lose as a result of it. For just two life the Vault offers just shy of four times the dig that Impulse offers for the same mana. It is both a hard tutor if you want or just an incredibly potent card quality effect and this is purely looking at the Vampiric Tutor aspect of the card!
So, how good is Index? More relevantly, how good is it off the back of a Vampiric Tutor? A whole boat load better than a Healing Salve, I can say that for sure. It turns out Index is really juicy it is just not something often found bolted on to a card you actually otherwise want to play. Index with draw a card added on would be one of the best card quality spells in cube. In terms of the options given per card or per mana Index it is one of the largest in all of magic. Five is a lot of cards and should give a decent spread of things, say a big thing, a small thing, some lands and the thing you specifically wanted. Being able to order these as you want adds a surprising amount of value. Index is a thing that actively works with a tutor effect and so both in concert yields an overall better effect.
You can use Vault profitably basically any time you have spare mana. You might ultimately want a six drop for the matchup but using a Vampiric Tutor to do so on turn two seems bad. Vault however can find it, leave it waiting in your deck till you can actually use it and still improve the quality of the turns in between. Alternatively Vault can go find a card you want and hopefully one or two others and then, like Brainstorm, use a shuffle effect to get shot of the unwanted cards.
A lot of combo style decks have a good degree of redundancy. A reanimate deck will have ideally at least four of each; recursion effects, good recursion targets, and ways to get those things in the graveyard. Often you are in a situation where you need two different effects and a conventional tutor is little help and will just sit in hand until you draw one of either kind you need first. With Vault you can reasonably expect to find a five card section of your deck that has both the required effects. The ability to be a double tutor is a pretty big deal. Another issue a lot of combo decks have is needing a non-combo card to be able to go off. This could be something like a Duress to bypass conters or it could simply be a land so as to have enough mana. Again, this allows Vault to be a double tutor fairly reliably. It does again, rely on you having some degree of redundancy in your deck. You cannot hope to hit a specific pair of cards with your Vault and should only attempt to do so if you have no other outs. I have found I was using the Vault to find two specific kinds of cards a lot even outside of combo decks. Finding a generic artifact plus an untapped land plus some action was a thing I did while having new Daretti in play. Basically, I think the card quality on top of the tutor effect makes this very playable in almost any kind of deck, not just combo ones.
There are some cool things going on with Vault which warms me to the card as well. If for some reason you have infinite life and your library does not have a number of cards in it that is evenly divisible by five then you can tutor up any five cards from your deck! Not sure why you need five specific cards to win when you already have infinite life but still. Pretty cool. Also, in all the various debates about which are the hardest magic cards to play I can only think that obscurity is what keeps this out of the top slots. In every way imaginable this is the hardest magic card in the whole game. It has far far more choices and options going on. I did a top ten hardest cards list draft a while back and a selection of the top cards included Brainstorm, Gifts Ungiven, Divining Top, Vampiric Tutor and simply put, Lim-Dul's Vault crushes all of those for complexity. It has pretty much all the different difficulties and things going on as all those other cards but rolled into one incredibly cheap card. One could debate long and hard between this and Gifts Ungiven, the commonly viewed most difficult card, as to which is tougher but as of recently I am very much in the Lim-Dul's Vault camp.
The vault is a great card, but the last bit is why I took it out. Arguably most complicated card in the game isn't something my format needs (more than one of)... was very pleased when this card came out
It provides the role of digging for answers and card quality, it provides more functionality for a GY strategy, and it has cycling
It provides the role of digging for answers and card quality, it provides more functionality for a GY strategy, and it has cycling
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I run and have played both and can mirror the enthusiasm. Both cards are great! Ancient Excavation may be my favorite Dimir card actually, it silently does so much in the color pair
I was not sold on the power of Lim-Dul's Vault until I played with it. Card is good. It's also time consuming and easy to misplay. Reminds me of sensei's diving top. Use it badly and you waste everyone's time. Despite how good it is, it's complicated and will go underdrafted if more casual settings. I like old card frames but this one reads better in the new frame. Use that copy is my advice.
Way too swingy and seems to really demand a specific attrition-based deck to make reliable use of it. If you're blinking (in ?), you don't want your blink targets eaten by the -3/-3, and if you've got tokens, they're almost certainly small enough to be swept off with -3/-3, too. I think you'd need an extremely low-powered, low-removal-count format for it to be worth a pick.
?), you don't want your blink targets eaten by the -3/-3, and if you've got tokens, they're almost certainly small enough to be swept off with -3/-3, too. I think you'd need an extremely low-powered, low-removal-count format for it to be worth a pick.
I agree on too swingy, but I think it's a cool card.
Momentary Blink and other instant speed blink effects become great. Any token generators become really strong. Kind of cool with walls too. I think it'll still be a little too narrow, but on the right cube this could be a gem. Keep in mind this is either a card that dictates a game or a dead draw. I might try it myself.
Momentary Blink and other instant speed blink effects become great. Any token generators become really strong. Kind of cool with walls too. I think it'll still be a little too narrow, but on the right cube this could be a gem. Keep in mind this is either a card that dictates a game or a dead draw. I might try it myself.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Too bad it rotates out when Ixalan hits the shelves. Would have been interesting to see if tutoring for planeswalkers would have made this good enough for standard!
Also,
I bet people are going to sleeve up their Lightning Greaves and stuff and just tutor a planeswalker every turn in commander...
Also,
I bet people are going to sleeve up their Lightning Greaves and stuff and just tutor a planeswalker every turn in commander...
So what exactly is the rules change?
Planeswalkers are legendary now. They follow the legend rule, and their type line is:
Legendary planeswalker - [name]
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Example: You can have Jace Beleren and Jace, the Mind Sculptor on the battlefield at the same time, but not two Jace Belerens.
Even better: you can have Sarkhan the Mad and Sarkhan Unbroken hanging with each other.
Ok cool, that's pretty simple.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Fun goofy ramp/midrange card, or giant feel bad trap?
I've been testing Form of the Dragon heavily. It's definitely fun (IMO anyway). Form is a really powerful effect that isn't super easy to get into play but once it lands it completely changes the dynamics of the game. It presents a bit of a solvable mini-game for your opponent.
Against some decks, it just wins. Maybe that will be feel bad for some people, but a lot of 7 drops just win and this thing is triple red which certainly is awkward given how non-control most red sections run. There's a large opportunity cost here.
It can also make you super vulnerable. Most feel bad moment for me recently was combo'ing it into play off Academy Rector and then having it bounced by an Into the Roil after losing 12 life from it. Speaking of which, dropping to 5 life is precarious even if it resets each turn. Against burn decks, this is flat out reckless. Fiery Confluence straight up kills you. Disenchant effects you can't counter completely ruin you too. The 5 damage trigger you get with no other offense is a super slow clock. Card is very beatable all things considered.
I'd be less inclined to run it without Academy Rector and/or Replenish I think. Part of it's appeal is as a target for those cards - get this in early and it's harder to handle. Though to be fair it's been hard cast several times now in my testing (and won most of the games it was hard cast in). Again, it warps the game when it comes down and I've had it save me from certain death and ultimately steal victory from the jaws of defeat a couple times now.
I'm a pretty big fan at this point.
Against some decks, it just wins. Maybe that will be feel bad for some people, but a lot of 7 drops just win and this thing is triple red which certainly is awkward given how non-control most red sections run. There's a large opportunity cost here.
It can also make you super vulnerable. Most feel bad moment for me recently was combo'ing it into play off Academy Rector and then having it bounced by an Into the Roil after losing 12 life from it. Speaking of which, dropping to 5 life is precarious even if it resets each turn. Against burn decks, this is flat out reckless. Fiery Confluence straight up kills you. Disenchant effects you can't counter completely ruin you too. The 5 damage trigger you get with no other offense is a super slow clock. Card is very beatable all things considered.
I'd be less inclined to run it without Academy Rector and/or Replenish I think. Part of it's appeal is as a target for those cards - get this in early and it's harder to handle. Though to be fair it's been hard cast several times now in my testing (and won most of the games it was hard cast in). Again, it warps the game when it comes down and I've had it save me from certain death and ultimately steal victory from the jaws of defeat a couple times now.
I'm a pretty big fan at this point.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This card has a similar vibe to me, but avoids the feel bad moments of getting it bounced and plays into green's ramp identity. It's certainly less of a puzzle card, and making 5/5s is not the same as dealing 5 directly, but I think it's the more playable end game enchantment.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Well, I mean its a given that the card is bad if our goal is to efficiently win games. I'm think more like a red lab maniac, alt win condition/achievement. It has to be fun, challenging, but not something likely to lead to outright feel bads. Is this a mountain worth/fun to climb?
To me it would all come down to how you would defend yourself when you've got it down. Maybe it pairs well with blue, with tap effects and counters? Or maybe some for effects (although I am sceptical if those are something you would desire in a draft format). As usual I would suggest making a deck list that showcases how the card would play.
I don't think it compares well to Lab Maniac mechanically. With maniac, you are setting up a combo kill - either it works and you win right there or it does nothing at all. Form of the Dragon locks up the game in many ways and instead of giving you the combo kill right there, it gives your opponent a couple turns to try and deal with it. A lot of times you have no way to deal with it and you just slowly die helpless. In the wrong matchup it can feel like Moat with an anti-tank gun attached to it. You definitely need to test it and see if you like what it brings to the table. I can see people not being fans. Flavor wise though, the card is a home run I think. And because you have a couple turns to answer it, wins don't feel cheap to me personally even if you really were mostly helpless. YMMV though.
In all the time I've hunted for good Academy Rector & Show and Tell targets, I've always dismissed Form of the Dragon as not being worth the slot. I think that's largely due to feeling like it turns a blind-eye to any real strategy in your deck. It warps play the second it lands by setting up an ultimatum that determines the game (either way). For instance, I try to select Tinker targets that are capable of winning a game, but have value and intersect with what other strategies are trying to do in my cube. I should probably test it to see if the double-edged dynamism outweighs these reservations. I can't really think of another comparable card in my cube, and in general I try to incorporate the broadest range of game scenarios as I can.
The key component that makes Form of the Dragon to me personally is the fact that it sets your life to 5 each turn. This isn't a card that makes the race farther the more turns it's in play. You are sulfuric vortexing yourself in a way. And your opponent doesn't need to remove it to beat you. Can they muster enough air support? Can they find enough burn? That's the interesting part of this card. A lot of finishers just put the game out of reach as turns go by. Play Grave Titan or Consecrated Sphinx and as turns go by the game is just that much more out of reach. Make more zombies. Draw more cards. How do you lose with either in play for 2-3 turns? Form though? Reset to 5 life every turn. It's ground hogs day. If your opponent can survive, gain some life, you just keep repeating the day hoping they finally succumb to you. And at any moment, they could find the answer and steal the game from you. You are always on the verge of losing with Form and that's what makes it interesting.