I think dismissing Darkblast by comparing it to Disfigure and focusing on how little it hits straight-up is underestimating the value of repeatable, on-demand removal. You're not "giving up a draw" to dredge Darkblast; you're choosing to draw a repeatable source of removal. I think if it hits in the realm of 33% of your cube, that's a reasonably balanced card, given that you can draw it multiple times a match, on-demand. That's not even considering the fact that many times it will be used like a "combat trick", a rare thing to justify in many cubes but perfectly suitable in Darkblast. I mean, if your standard is 4 copies of Doom Blade, yes, Darkblast might not compete, but if you're trying to curate something more middle- or lower-powered, the card is a complete house that helps support an archetype (self-mill) that is extremely difficult to pull off without holistically re-shaping how card draw works as a mechanic in your list.
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, you're trading a draw step for a removal spell, which is 100% fine if you were in the market for a removal spell.
Its also really strange to see if described as low powered, since I associate it with wreaking people in legacy and vintage, but I suppose it looks bad in cube formats with a lot of high toughness midrangy creatures and planeswalkers--probably a fair complaint in that context.
At a certain point, I suppose it segways into another varient of the sb dicussion we were having earlier. When is it a maindeck worthy, mix and match, or sb aggro stomper?
Its also really strange to see if described as low powered, since I associate it with wreaking people in legacy and vintage, but I suppose it looks bad in cube formats with a lot of high toughness midrangy creatures and planeswalkers--probably a fair complaint in that context.
At a certain point, I suppose it segways into another varient of the sb dicussion we were having earlier. When is it a maindeck worthy, mix and match, or sb aggro stomper?
Darkblast is like molten vortex. Some cubes it will be great - a sweet techie glue piece that just fits. Other cubes it will be clunky side board chaff and you'll wonder why you're running it. This card is a neat design and it's easy to see a lot value and synergy. But because it's often nothing more than fair, it can be a let down. Definitely worth testing so hopefully I didn't discourage anyone from trying it.
I haven't had a great experience with Darkblast either. Sometimes it just gets stuck in your hand, so much that the risk is not worth the card slot. Try it out though, it sounds like the card is super cube-dependent.
I would not call Disfigure low power, the card is really strong and I'm fine with first picking it in my cube. Works in every black deck.
I would not call Disfigure low power, the card is really strong and I'm fine with first picking it in my cube. Works in every black deck.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I've cubed Darkblast in the past, but my current one mana removal spells are Dead Weight and Fatal Push. The percentage of one toughness creatures in my cube is quite a bit lower though, and there's less ways to abuse all those cards going to the yard as well. So Darkblast never really panned out, but again, I really could see it working here. 33% is not bad at all for a baseline, and when you add the two toughness creatures to that list it goes up quite a bit.
It depends on what your removal suite looks like. Disfigure looks really bad next to lightning bolt and swords to plowshares. And still looks subpar against less broken options (burst lightning/firebolt/path to exile). White removal is just more powerful and offers higher tempo potential since it trades for much larger things. And red's is much more flexible doubling as reach and anti-walker tech. Black's removal is a tier below white/red and disfigure is no exception.
I have 235 creatures in my cube, 102 of which die to dark blast used once! I also support dredge and black doesn't have many cheap graveyard fillers like it. It is certainly a card to board in and out depending on the match-up, but if your cube isn't incredibly high powered, it should make you happy, as long as your 
x decks have any interest in a big graveyard and cheap removal.
x decks have any interest in a big graveyard and cheap removal.
How's this for a lower power black control finisher?
How's this for a lower power black control finisher?
It's a really neat card. If you have low-powered control decks that rely more on damage-wraths and such, I could see it being beast. Being a 6 mana non-etb means you've got to think a little bit about how it fits into the removal environment, but a cool card nonetheless.
Also just in case you didn't know about it, there is a thread specifically for lower powered cards. You might find some neato stuff there: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/low-power-card-spotlight.1126/
I'll check it out. I try to keep all my 5+cmc stuff non-etb, and balance my removal around that. I do also run damage based sweepers in black and red! I'll try it out.
For those that support resource denial strategies in cube, how do you feel about this in the context of an average mid-power Riptide Cube?
I really enjoy what colorless disruption like Tangle Wire and Wasteland brings to the table, especially if it aids aggro strategies. I'd love to have one more piece. The last time I saw it in action was alongside Opposition which was just stupid. Opposition is gone and never coming back, so I'm hoping this isn't completely unreasonable.
I really enjoy what colorless disruption like Tangle Wire and Wasteland brings to the table, especially if it aids aggro strategies. I'd love to have one more piece. The last time I saw it in action was alongside Opposition which was just stupid. Opposition is gone and never coming back, so I'm hoping this isn't completely unreasonable.
Aren’t we getting too old to still call it non-Magic when we play Magic cards like Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, Wasteland etc.?
I mean it is Magic. Even though some people don’t like that part of the game.
I mean it is Magic. Even though some people don’t like that part of the game.
Okay, looking for a green and white card that signals/supports/top end for control style ramp decks. Already have mirari's wake. Have trostanis summoner, but want to replace it. Any suggestions?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Can I suggest a two drop?
Yeah...That’s why I prefaced by saying “those of you that support resource denial”.... I’m aware that I’m against the grain of the average riptider on the topic, but was hoping to have a discussion nonetheless.
Resource disruption is a very fundamental part of the game that can function as a check on battlecruising and durdling. I enjoy the complexity and tension it adds to my cube’s meta, and my group supports the strategy.
I'll talk however I feel like, thanks, to make the point in the way I want to. I'm literally talking about me and my friends, to generate a contextual argument about how we enjoy the game (and mutually feel about the Orb). You do you, bro.
I was actually answering you in the context of what you were asking. In an average riptide cube without as many ways to exploit or counter-exploit it, why? It will just grind the game to a halt. That's why I mention my groups playstyle. Combo off with it and great, next game, cool play. Play it just to invalidate mana curves and it's gonna be rain of salt over here. I also think that riptide cubes just have cooler ways to perform resource denial actions. WB hate bears is popular over here, and really naturally mixes disruption effects into an aggro strategy without resorting to nuclear options.
I really like the suggestion of Dromoka. Lifelink on a big body with some great effects seems solid.
Dromoka is probably the card that'd make me go from UW control to Bant
Fine by me
I am not including such cards in my cube either. At least not very much and not as a supported archetype.However in my opinion it is still Magic because.. you know.. they're Magic cards
Anyways let’s move on.
Dromoka is awesome.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
As resident old person I would like to clarify that winter orb's status as a Magic card has always been tenuous at best.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I always preferred running Swords of revealing light myself
Very, very true!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Winter orb is a contridiction: its a magic card that actively works to stop one or more players from playing magic. Its not unreasonable to point that out.
It always led to bad games when we ran it. It was never really an aggro support card, you would just pile up mana rocks in a midrange shell, and use that to break symmetry on it, burying an opponent in a match that had largely turned to solitare.
I understand the appeal though. Its like a form of lost tech, a relic from another age, and if you're creative in nature, having that as a toy to play with is pretty appealing. We have one player like that, and he loved orb. It didn't matter how many stalemated horrible games we had, exploring the lost continent took priority. Even after I broke it by running it alongside signets, he was still doing goofy things like trying to run it alongside icy manipulator, killing himself half the time, and making sure everyone in his matchups had a terrible night of gaming.
The only card I actively hate more in magic's library is static orb.
It always led to bad games when we ran it. It was never really an aggro support card, you would just pile up mana rocks in a midrange shell, and use that to break symmetry on it, burying an opponent in a match that had largely turned to solitare.
I understand the appeal though. Its like a form of lost tech, a relic from another age, and if you're creative in nature, having that as a toy to play with is pretty appealing. We have one player like that, and he loved orb. It didn't matter how many stalemated horrible games we had, exploring the lost continent took priority. Even after I broke it by running it alongside signets, he was still doing goofy things like trying to run it alongside icy manipulator, killing himself half the time, and making sure everyone in his matchups had a terrible night of gaming.
The only card I actively hate more in magic's library is static orb.
Hi, my name is japahn (hi japahn) and I run Static Orb.
Static Orb doesn't see much play, I guess mostly because people are scared of it - hell, I'm scared of it.
The few times I've seen in action were a mixed bag. Some were bad when games became painfully slow. Each deck needed to skip a turn to play a spell. Most times, though, it's played it in a deck with cheap cards, since you'll have 2 mana a turn, and if everything costs 2 mana, you're just "curving out". You don't usually attack with your creatures every turn even in this case - it's either swing with 2 creatures or cast a 2-mana card. The game becomes very, very different, because the main resource is not cards anymore, but mana, and you're trying to make the most out of it.
A couple of things break the symmetry - bouncelands, vigilance, every turn triggered effects for free, large creatures, cheap bounce, combat tricks. Even if none of these are present, the cheaper deck usually has the advantage.
I think Winter Orb is really painful to play though, and Static Orb gets a bad rep out of the similarity when it's actually two times as fast I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but twice as much of your scarce resource makes a big difference. Two things make Static Orb more fair than Winter Orb: 1. creatures also don't untap, so the deck with creatures on board did not automatically win; 2. artifact mana is also affected, so no symmetry breaking that way, besides running Worn Powerstone, Gilded Lotus or Thran Dynamo.
What I like about Static Orb is how the game is completely turned on its head when card advantage is not important, and tempo becomes the focus of the game. The play is sometimes bad, but often interesting and sometimes very very tense and fun.
That said, don't do Winter Orb.
Static Orb doesn't see much play, I guess mostly because people are scared of it - hell, I'm scared of it.
The few times I've seen in action were a mixed bag. Some were bad when games became painfully slow. Each deck needed to skip a turn to play a spell. Most times, though, it's played it in a deck with cheap cards, since you'll have 2 mana a turn, and if everything costs 2 mana, you're just "curving out". You don't usually attack with your creatures every turn even in this case - it's either swing with 2 creatures or cast a 2-mana card. The game becomes very, very different, because the main resource is not cards anymore, but mana, and you're trying to make the most out of it.
A couple of things break the symmetry - bouncelands, vigilance, every turn triggered effects for free, large creatures, cheap bounce, combat tricks. Even if none of these are present, the cheaper deck usually has the advantage.
I think Winter Orb is really painful to play though, and Static Orb gets a bad rep out of the similarity when it's actually two times as fast
I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but twice as much of your scarce resource makes a big difference. Two things make Static Orb more fair than Winter Orb: 1. creatures also don't untap, so the deck with creatures on board did not automatically win; 2. artifact mana is also affected, so no symmetry breaking that way, besides running Worn Powerstone, Gilded Lotus or Thran Dynamo.What I like about Static Orb is how the game is completely turned on its head when card advantage is not important, and tempo becomes the focus of the game. The play is sometimes bad, but often interesting and sometimes very very tense and fun.
That said, don't do Winter Orb.