i feel like fixing is atrocious in limited
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Or put the vistas in the basic land box and hand out 3 to each player…
The problem with this approach is, that I want to support mono color decks, and having extra picks because you don't need to prioritize fixing is a nice reward.
True, either:
1) basic box and hand out
2) put them in the cube, which takes space/picks and do not mind that one takes them all
You cannot have them both. You can solve your conundrum by allowing players to pick 3 lands from your land box, where there are a lot of vistas and some lands which are good but not broken for single colour decks, e.g, urza manlands?
I've been messing with an Evolving Wilds mana base recently for similar reasons. I also like that the mana base would (basically) force me into a retail limited power level because I'm kind of over supporting WotC on the secondary market with all the bullshit they've done lately, but I still love the game.
How to get players to play mono-colored:
1. Cut the amount of colors from five to a smaller number. Maybe cut white so the cube only includes blue, black, red and green.
2. Cut all fixing lands and all regular multicolored cards that require more than one color of mana to cast them.
3. Include cards like Boros Reckoner and Phyrexian Obliterator that is difficult to splash.
If above isn't done players will way too often see a pack where they do not see a single card in their mono color. Thus giving the multicolored players more picks and not fewer picks like you wanted to.
People will try to play multicolored even if above is done because that gives them higher power cards because picking from two colors means picking higher power cards on average. So you have to make it difficult for them.
What I'll try now is: 20 Vistas + a full set of painlands + a full set of bouncelands. 40 lands isn't much for 500 cards, but I have hopes it will do.
I've done the above, to some degree, I even created a thread about this:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/supporting-monocolor-how-and-why.3203/
It's quite successfull, actually. I'd guess about 20% of the decks drafted from my cube are mono colored. I'd say the three most important factors are:
- a very small number of gold cards
- a large amount of colorless cards and hybrids, including some with many pips.
- some good payoffs for it, like pip-heavy cards, basic land tribal, devotion or similar.
I've done the above, to some degree, I even created a thread about this:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/supporting-monocolor-how-and-why.3203/
It's quite successfull, actually. I'd guess about 20% of the decks drafted from my cube are mono colored. I'd say the three most important factors are:
- a very small number of gold cards
- a large amount of colorless cards and hybrids, including some with many pips.
- some good payoffs for it, like pip-heavy cards, basic land tribal, devotion or similar.
Yes and I'm convinced it's not as fun or powerful as other options.
On the contrary, I think the more I've seen the more I've been impressed with Sheoldred, the Apocalypse and the gameplay it brings to the table. So much so that I put in an order for a copy earlier this evening.
It's a perfect card for any kind of grindy black archetype centered in U/B or G/B and absolutely changes the pace of the game with that passive effect. A 4/5 with deathtouch for 4 mana is a great body to rumble with and gums up the board in a big way. That passive life drain stacks up real quick. Players will often fire off card draw in desperate attempts to dig and find a way to progress the game once they've stalled out, but an active Sheoldred paired alongside additional pressure could push them into the danger zone. And conversely any looting or card draw of your own just pads your life total and lets you pull yourself back up off the ledge if you've been under pressure.
If I'm on the other side, can I actually play this topdecked Seasoned Pyromancer if it means I take 4 damage and go from 11 to 7? I definitely need to find a way out, but is this the best way? I've got some bodies to chump with for now, and I guess I can throw the Pyro under Sheoldred and more bodies later, but at that point I'll be down to 3 or 5. I still need to get there. Or should I try to topdeck a kill spell (do I even have one big enough?) to shoot this thing down and then stabilize with the Pyro? If they attack, do I have enough power to maybe trade with a 2-for-1 to get out from under this? That's the kind of stuff I like to see in games of cube; the generation of board states and situations that create involved gameplay. It's a lot more engaging to me than trying to port Constructed with extreme redundancies or deploy the big haymakers we've seen from shoddy MTGO cubes over the years.
And it's not like the opponent always has the perfect removal to escape at all times. You can definitely design with that assumption, but the "Vindicate Test" has never been something that held much importance to me. In fact I'd go so far as saying that you're doing yourself a disservice if that's a criteria that still matters when it comes to design. There are so many strong cards printed today, especially at lower CMCs, that can have snowballing effects and synergies that end up demanding some sort of interaction. I can count many games over course of my cube's existence that came down to grinding games out after trading resources early to handle these kinds of impact cards. Sometimes you can't just have it all and something WILL stick.
Even better is if you've taken the time to thoughtfully curate your removal suite with a variety of different pieces of interaction that would allow cards like Sheoldred to get a chance to shine. For example, my suite of "removal" options in black that can kill single creatures (ignoring wraths) include the following:
A healthy mix of unconditional removal for threats along with other pieces of interaction that are more conditional. I can kill Sheoldred and the like with an Infernal Grasp or Go for the Throat, but maybe you'll just have an edict or way to take down smaller bodies instead. Sometimes you get stumped by that non-artifact clause when you're facing down a big Karstruct in an artifact deck. That's good! That variety is key in maintaining the importance of choice and sequencing for players throughout a game. It's the same ingredient that makes Limited fun where you can't just bank on ending up with 3 Murders in your draft deck. instead you might get Murder+ at rare ala Soul Transfer, but the other variants might be a 5 mana sorcery that also gains you two life or a 2 mana instant that gives a creature -2/-2. That's what creates the tension and decision points where it might be better to hold onto that piece of premier removal and instead force the issue via combat and tricks to maximize resources. That, in my opinion, is the way that you'd want to tailor your removal suite rather than run every new Hero's Downfall or Gild variant that we get every other set. It definitely keeps things fresh and more engaging in the long run. Like I play the hell out of Baleful Mastery in EDH, but I didn't want any part of it for my cube when it was released because I didn't feel it necessary.
What I like most about cards like Sheoldred is that they make you re-evaluate card choices and what you can pair with it to maximize that ability. Firing off a Languish with Sheoldred lets you pull off a Wildfire impression. Hell, you could just play regular Wildfire as well in a grindy R/B deck. How about playing some protect the queen by firing off that Arcane Denial and also doming them for another 4 damage? Definitely go back into the binder and see what might synergize now. I don't have room at the moment, but I'm definitely contemplating an expansion to 435 in the future that could include cards like Windfall and Wheel of Misfortune with how they interact with Sheoldred and stuff like Rielle, the Everwise. Throwing cards into the grave can also supercharge something like a Haughty Djinn or let me get closer to a win off a Thassa's Oracle. I'd like to give drafters the chance to explore that sometime.
I won't get a chance to run a cube draft of my own for a while, but I'll be very excited to try and draft this alongside all the changes I've recently made. I think it's a great card, it's proven itself with tons of gameplay that has shown it to be quite impactful in a variety of different scenarios, and it's exactly the kind of "dense" card that gets me excited during a cube draft. Seeing it all come together with card interactions while extracting max value is what makes cube fun to me.
It's a perfect card for any kind of grindy black archetype centered in U/B or G/B and absolutely changes the pace of the game with that passive effect. A 4/5 with deathtouch for 4 mana is a great body to rumble with and gums up the board in a big way. That passive life drain stacks up real quick. Players will often fire off card draw in desperate attempts to dig and find a way to progress the game once they've stalled out, but an active Sheoldred paired alongside additional pressure could push them into the danger zone. And conversely any looting or card draw of your own just pads your life total and lets you pull yourself back up off the ledge if you've been under pressure.
If I'm on the other side, can I actually play this topdecked Seasoned Pyromancer if it means I take 4 damage and go from 11 to 7? I definitely need to find a way out, but is this the best way? I've got some bodies to chump with for now, and I guess I can throw the Pyro under Sheoldred and more bodies later, but at that point I'll be down to 3 or 5. I still need to get there. Or should I try to topdeck a kill spell (do I even have one big enough?) to shoot this thing down and then stabilize with the Pyro? If they attack, do I have enough power to maybe trade with a 2-for-1 to get out from under this? That's the kind of stuff I like to see in games of cube; the generation of board states and situations that create involved gameplay. It's a lot more engaging to me than trying to port Constructed with extreme redundancies or deploy the big haymakers we've seen from shoddy MTGO cubes over the years.
And it's not like the opponent always has the perfect removal to escape at all times. You can definitely design with that assumption, but the "Vindicate Test" has never been something that held much importance to me. In fact I'd go so far as saying that you're doing yourself a disservice if that's a criteria that still matters when it comes to design. There are so many strong cards printed today, especially at lower CMCs, that can have snowballing effects and synergies that end up demanding some sort of interaction. I can count many games over course of my cube's existence that came down to grinding games out after trading resources early to handle these kinds of impact cards. Sometimes you can't just have it all and something WILL stick.
Even better is if you've taken the time to thoughtfully curate your removal suite with a variety of different pieces of interaction that would allow cards like Sheoldred to get a chance to shine. For example, my suite of "removal" options in black that can kill single creatures (ignoring wraths) include the following:
A healthy mix of unconditional removal for threats along with other pieces of interaction that are more conditional. I can kill Sheoldred and the like with an Infernal Grasp or Go for the Throat, but maybe you'll just have an edict or way to take down smaller bodies instead. Sometimes you get stumped by that non-artifact clause when you're facing down a big Karstruct in an artifact deck. That's good! That variety is key in maintaining the importance of choice and sequencing for players throughout a game. It's the same ingredient that makes Limited fun where you can't just bank on ending up with 3 Murders in your draft deck. instead you might get Murder+ at rare ala Soul Transfer, but the other variants might be a 5 mana sorcery that also gains you two life or a 2 mana instant that gives a creature -2/-2. That's what creates the tension and decision points where it might be better to hold onto that piece of premier removal and instead force the issue via combat and tricks to maximize resources. That, in my opinion, is the way that you'd want to tailor your removal suite rather than run every new Hero's Downfall or Gild variant that we get every other set. It definitely keeps things fresh and more engaging in the long run. Like I play the hell out of Baleful Mastery in EDH, but I didn't want any part of it for my cube when it was released because I didn't feel it necessary.
What I like most about cards like Sheoldred is that they make you re-evaluate card choices and what you can pair with it to maximize that ability. Firing off a Languish with Sheoldred lets you pull off a Wildfire impression. Hell, you could just play regular Wildfire as well in a grindy R/B deck. How about playing some protect the queen by firing off that Arcane Denial and also doming them for another 4 damage? Definitely go back into the binder and see what might synergize now. I don't have room at the moment, but I'm definitely contemplating an expansion to 435 in the future that could include cards like Windfall and Wheel of Misfortune with how they interact with Sheoldred and stuff like Rielle, the Everwise. Throwing cards into the grave can also supercharge something like a Haughty Djinn or let me get closer to a win off a Thassa's Oracle. I'd like to give drafters the chance to explore that sometime.
I won't get a chance to run a cube draft of my own for a while, but I'll be very excited to try and draft this alongside all the changes I've recently made. I think it's a great card, it's proven itself with tons of gameplay that has shown it to be quite impactful in a variety of different scenarios, and it's exactly the kind of "dense" card that gets me excited during a cube draft. Seeing it all come together with card interactions while extracting max value is what makes cube fun to me.
435? What’s your split?
Alright. I’ll get back to you in a month or three.
I have a 420 cube right now. I wanted to have more than a 360 for variety's sake (I usually only get 6-8 drafters nowadays), but 450 was too large and unwieldy to maintain the card density for archetypes in the past. I've had a 450 before in like 2017 and it was great when I could get 10 drafters like I could back then, but I can't do that consistently any longer. I think with what we have access to nowadays 435 would still work in keeping my draft archetypes fleshed out and present. I might revisit 450 this time next year if I can get my plans for a bi-monthly cube day to stick with my playgroup.
Last edited:
I've always felt weird about black's "destroy target creature, unless it happens to be the wrong kind" cards. Seems like a feelsbad if your deck contains the right kind of kill spells for the problem you're currently facing, but the kill spell in your hand can't hit creatures that have odd-numbered CMCs or legendary artifacts or whatever. But sounds like these are working well for your group?
Not a huge fan of this either unless it’s to support an archetype or something. Maybe you are trying to promote artifact cheat into play. Then Go for the Throat makes sense, since answering your 2-3 card combo for only 2 mana might be too efficient and thus nullify your strategy.
I think Edicts are different because they don’t answer specific threats more so than specific strategies. In most cubes though there are too many tokens for them to be very high impact IMO.
I quite like Ultimate Price as it can pick off any creature except the multicoloured archetype payoff creatures, allowing it to disrupt engines without crippling them completely.
Love minimal fixing solutions like that! Why Evolving Wilds over Ash Barrens though? Barrens seems to have better play for proactive decks vs wilds.
I still run a few "destroy target nonblack creature" removal spells in black. It is a nuance to make black kill spells a bit more effective in mono black than they are for the greedy 3+ color control piles. The logic is simple: The more black you pick during tze draft, the less black creatures you'll face in the draft.
In this deck:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/633f24bfa7a1ca0f6957ef5f
You are much more likely to have a problem with your executioner's capsule than you would have in this mono colored version of the same match plan:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/633f15cca7a1ca0f69575323
In this deck:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/633f24bfa7a1ca0f6957ef5f
You are much more likely to have a problem with your executioner's capsule than you would have in this mono colored version of the same match plan:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/633f15cca7a1ca0f69575323
I triple Ultimate Price for exactly that reason!
I love restrictions. Almost all decks use creatures and black destroy is quite cheap. Having an cheap answer to everything is just not great from a gameplay perspective. It used to be non-artifact and non-black (thou shall not kill your own, Exile) but non-multicoloured (and non-black) is probably even better.
The reason that disenchant card are a catch all for a certain type while not being obnoxious is that they are conditional, e.g, a normal deck has not many enchantments/artifacts and the card being a dead card is a real drawback.
edit: disenchant is not okay in a artifact/enchantment based cube. These type of cards are really strong in mirrodin type of environments.
That's fair, it can crop up now and then and I've definitely been stuck with a Shriekmaw in G1 against another black deck before. However, I would argue that these situations serve to bump up the value of true unconditional removal during the draft. In many scenarios a copy of Go For the Throat is virtually just an unconditional kill spell 9/10 times, but that 1 time might put the player in a scenario where they have to approach the issue differently. Maybe they need to fire off that Damnation rather than saving it for later. Maybe they need to double block and trade away one of these creatures to deal with the threat?
In any case, nowadays we have an abundance of unconditional removal from 3+ mana out. Hero's Downfall is no longer a cause for excitement like it was back in 2013. I just think there needs to be some payoff for differentiating your removal suite (same with the counterspell suite) to where the choices actually matter rather than well, I guess I'll just wait until the next kill spell comes my way. If everything is just good removal, then that reduces any urgency in using an early pick on most of it. It's partly why I'm such a big fan of cards like Bloodchief's Thirst where the modality makes it fit into the gameplay patterns of both a low to the ground Aggro deck where you'll fire it off just to clear early blockers or in grindy Control builds where the 5 mana mode matters most. It's why I still play Char nowadays because I know that the aggressive red deck will value it differently than your typical R/x deck which doesn't appreciate the self Shock. I've played cards like Incendiary Flow and Red Sun's Zenith in the past not due to pure efficiency in comparison to Searing Spear #4 but because the scenarios where they can be more relevant (i.e. exiling a Gravecrawler or Skyclave Shade) make them more versatile.
This also makes true unconditional removal more valuable during the draft process. It gives cards like Banshing Light and Oblivion Ring a place to still stand against today's hyper efficient designs. It makes "Baneslayers" (a term I've come to detest in cube design) worth deploying. If every kill spell you get to draft is able to put on a Hero's Downfall impression, then it all just kinda blends together. I think choices and decisions should just matter more in both the draft and gameplay process; it's what makes this format fun in the first place.
Last edited:
As much as I love Ultimate Price and GFTT, I can't let
go unmentioned
It and Collective Brutality are easily my favourite pieces of conditional removal.
go unmentioned
It and Collective Brutality are easily my favourite pieces of conditional removal.
I love it for the Reanimator decks that pop up in my cube now and again. It's exactly the type of branching card you need to keep yourself afloat early picking off small threats and padding your life total a little as you extend into the mid-game for a Damnation or Languish to clean up the board. Just a great design.
I miss being able to run 3 copies of Brutality in my Modern Jund sideboard and fire them off fully escalated to make Burn players cry in G2 and G3. After losing G1 of course.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I love when your removal hits a percentage of the opposing deck, provided you've got multiple removal spells to decide on. Holding Go for the Throat because you know there's a multicolored threat you need to answer? Great!
I don't love it when they're all or nothing like "nonblack", but in a way you have to put up with a certain amount of this just because it was the default restriction up until what, M10?
Also realistically in my environment you'd be hard pressed to actually have a mono-black deck, but you can find the odd scenario where most of the creatures in a 2 color deck happen to be black.
I do want to say: this isn't just a black "problem". Most removal has some level of conditionality, it's just that nonblack was so common for so long and we don't think of "3 damage" as a condition in the same way. I actually have this issue with white most of the time!
Other conditions you might not think of:
-Sorcery Speed
-Removable counteranswer (See Oblivion Ring)
-Attacking/Blocking vs any creature
-Small vs Big creatures (Portable Hole, Valorous Stance)
-Power > Toughness (Justice Strike)
-Creature Type (Victim of Night)
And, last but not least:
-Synergy with your other cards (Executioner's Capsule, Seal of Fire, Unholy Heat, Galvanic Blast, Bone Shards, the list goes on)
I think your cube is boring if most things are just terminate, or if they're all on the exact same downside. Caleb Gannon's cube is so slanted that anything that costs 3+ and has 4+ toughness just has hexproof, and I think that's super demoralizing.
So long as you build your cube well so there's a mix of stuff available, I think these kind of stuff makes for interesting games.
I like the card, but I can imagine my group flipping the table after getting hit by it.As much as I love Ultimate Price and GFTT, I can't let
go unmentioned
It and Collective Brutality are easily my favourite pieces of conditional removal.