This is probably obvious, but worth stating...The lower the average cmc of your creature base the less effective bounce is. Bouncing a 2 cmc creature doesn’t disrupt tempo like bouncing a 4-5 drop. Makes sense why funch doesn’t value that particular flavor of disruption given the aggressive curve he supports
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Bounce also isn't often card economy neutral, but rather is often negative. If you unsummon a Baneslayer Angel it's good for you, but not as good as Doom Blading it. I think bounce is at its most effective in very low power formats like retail limited where low cmc interaction is very scarce and in mono blue where you literally don't get all that much better creature removal options.
I think slower formats could use Repulse, Galestrike, and the like in order to generate a tempo advantage without generating card Disadvantage. I think the Penny-Pincher Cubes ran at least one of these cards to good effect.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Guys, comments like this is the reason why the Riplab emote/react is here.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Would you consider straight up Counterspell or Force of Will removal? And yeah, I think of bounce as more of a tempo play than true removal.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
One of my all time favorite designs. The sum can be greater than its parts.
In general since the pure thoughtseize effect is very strong and not something you can put on every other card, i wouldnt mind a crackling doom variant of discard : with the full information sharing but with the discarded card being predetermined.
Bounce is very occasionally true removal.
You can also bounce a token.
Recoil is an old favorite. My first tournament that I was actually competitive in was invasion block constructed. I ran Grixis with stuff like Recoil, Blazing Specter, Ravenous Rats, Urza's Rage, and Nightscape Familiar. I still have a soft spot for all of those cards.
Reggie really changes in strength based on the availability of tokens and cheap removal, but it's almost always better Baneslayer than Baneslayer. Even if you're just chumping, he demands a sacrifice every turn or takes a third of your life, as opposed to most similar threats which will take a quarter or a fifth, so that's a lot harder to handle. Plus, he comes down T3, not T4 or T5, so even though he's a lot easier to deal with he forces a lot of subpar plays to just not die to the T-Rex. Also, if you can use the discard in any way at all (which can be super easy if your cube is set up to have those things [like a graveyard combo cube, for example??]) he becomes just crazy good.
In your (current) cube, Inscho, you only have sixteen creatures which can deal with this via deathtouch or having 6+ power, meaning that if you want to deal with it through combat you're gonna need to double block. Red is going to have a tough time dealing with this in general.
I think that you in particular only have a handful of kill spells that deal with Reggie cleanly, and none cost less than MV3 other than Unexpected Journey. I would expect him to be very strong. Maybe not too strong, as he's clearly tied into themes, and it seems like decks are going to have the levels of synergy required to overcome this power, but I'm sure he'll at least be format-defining.
In your (current) cube, Inscho, you only have sixteen creatures which can deal with this via deathtouch or having 6+ power, meaning that if you want to deal with it through combat you're gonna need to double block. Red is going to have a tough time dealing with this in general.
I think that you in particular only have a handful of kill spells that deal with Reggie cleanly, and none cost less than MV3 other than Unexpected Journey. I would expect him to be very strong. Maybe not too strong, as he's clearly tied into themes, and it seems like decks are going to have the levels of synergy required to overcome this power, but I'm sure he'll at least be format-defining.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. It’s seems right on the cusp for me. I am increasing the quality of removal with my next update, but Reggie will still be close to the largest body in my cube. It does seem format-defining. I like the idea of having a huge efficient beater, but I could just as easily add another delve creature with less distortion. The discard outlet would be welcomed though..hm
My cube is quite a bit about card advantage, so playing it on T3 is usually not a good idea, as betting your whole game on something that can be chumped with recursive creatures or tokens, removed, bounced, pacified or tapped is generally too risky. T5 Regisaur + 2-mana spell is more prudent.
Regisaur can be a couple of things:
- A hellbent payoff
- A top-end for aggro
- A discard enabler
- Critical mass for zombies
I like the versatility of the card in terms of decks it can go in, and the fact that playing it on curve is often not the best play, so it requires some thought and risk assessment.
In terms of power level, it's probably just above average in my cube. It does win games sometimes if the opponent has literally nothing, but without protection it's easy to defend against it. It becomes a lot better when you can hold up a Counterspell or a Dive Down. It can be played as a high-risk high-reward card, and it can feel oppressive when played as such successfully.
Factors that make it stronger (+) or weaker (-):
++ Madness/graveyard synergies
+ Pyroclasms
-- Tokens
- Strong removal
- Card advantage environment (as opposed to tempo environment)
- Lots of evasion
Regisaur can be a couple of things:
- A hellbent payoff
- A top-end for aggro
- A discard enabler
- Critical mass for zombies
I like the versatility of the card in terms of decks it can go in, and the fact that playing it on curve is often not the best play, so it requires some thought and risk assessment.
In terms of power level, it's probably just above average in my cube. It does win games sometimes if the opponent has literally nothing, but without protection it's easy to defend against it. It becomes a lot better when you can hold up a Counterspell or a Dive Down. It can be played as a high-risk high-reward card, and it can feel oppressive when played as such successfully.
Factors that make it stronger (+) or weaker (-):
++ Madness/graveyard synergies
+ Pyroclasms
-- Tokens
- Strong removal
- Card advantage environment (as opposed to tempo environment)
- Lots of evasion
I think that the fact that Reggie draws this much debate is what makes it a great Cube card regardless of where precisely it stands in your power band, tbh.* Having a card that requires extra thought is a big plus in my book.
*Provided it's inside your power band, ofc. Which it probably is, as it's fairly flexible--anything can chump it, and discarding a card is discarding a card.
*Provided it's inside your power band, ofc. Which it probably is, as it's fairly flexible--anything can chump it, and discarding a card is discarding a card.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Everyone's favourite frog has a lot of fans around here (me included!) but I want to unpick it a bit. It's easy to list off cards that trigger it or work with it in some way but I'm looking for examples of decks where it excelled
Oh man. Let me see if I can find the video, I had a deck last month that Ancestralled off this card in one turn. It's basically your top-end for BUG / Abzan / BG land shenanigans decks. Great with cycling lands, fetches (obviously), Loam. Where is that decklist. Baby is awake now, it'll have to wait!
Everyone's favourite frog has a lot of fans around here (me included!) but I want to unpick it a bit. It's easy to list off cards that trigger it or work with it in some way but I'm looking for examples of decks where it excelled
