General So... effects? Or how to play more combat tricks

Alfonzo Bonzo

Alfonzo Bonzo

So, the discussion on swift justice in the lifegain thread got me thinking about combat tricks. In regular limited they're an everyday part of the experience, but in cube they're relatively scarce. Jason's comment really stood out:

Jason Waddell said:
I don't think it's unfun, so much as there's potential to Level 2 play (and beyond) if people are aware of the possibility, and if the possibility is actually worth considering. If the combat tricks are so rare that your best line is to pretend they don't exist, then you might not be presenting the most sophisticated gameplay options.
Click to expand...

I have some questions for consideration:

* What is it about 'regular' cube design that means that combat tricks generally aren't included? Is it the curse of power maximisation? Is it the density of instant speed removal? Is it that they lack excitement?
* In what sort of cube environment would they be 'good' or attractive picks? Do they need to present synergy, such as the lifegain theme Jason is trying, or the high number of heroic cards in FSRs cube?
* Are they only worth including if they're attached to a body,eg. briarhorn or come with flexibility attached, eg,simic charm?
* How many or what sort of density would you need to have in your cube so you have potential level 2 play?
* What combat tricks do you like from regular limited play that might be fun or interesting for cube?
* What tricks do you play now and is it good?
 
Goldenpineapple

Goldenpineapple

I run a handful and they're great. Disclaimer of my cube being generally low-power.

I think the 'problem' with combat tricks is effectively thousandfold: Removal is extremely good in most lists, aggro weenies get outclassed beyond the ability of most combat tricks very quickly, and tricks are dead vs. a lot of decks and in a lot of situations, so they almost feel like sideboard cards vs. "The other creature-heavy deck."

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with only using the "best" tricks, but giant growth and pals can be just as surprising as mana tithe... here's what I'm playing:




Along with disfigure and older brother last gasp, which are mildly tricks. I've gone through a lot of tricks and people just do not want to play them unless they cost next to nothing and do a LOT (I tried epic proportions of all things). Players were very iffy on weapon surge and swift justice but they've taken to them.
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
We had a topic on this waaaaaaaay back when in the old Google Group. My take on it back then, which I think addresses some (but not all) of Alfonzo's questions, was thus:

--------------------

I had more combat tricks in the past, too, but they weren't cutting the mustard. Vines of Vastwood was barely playable, but just as often sat quietly in sideboards. I liked the idea of Briarhorn, but didn't bring it in cause I knew it couldn't compete. Agony Warp caused tons of blowouts here, too, but it was the removal aspect that people were taking it for.

All that's to say that I agree with your hypothesis - combat tricks can't thrive in a typical high-power cube.

My take on it is this. For combat tricks to do their duty, high quality, universal removal has to be toned down. It's hard to justify jamming a Giant Growth if you put your opponent on Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, or one of the myriad other cheap removal spells. The chance of getting eaten alive during combat is just too high. Good sorcery speed removal - your O Rings, Wraths, Flametongues - also contributes to the problem. If you know that creature attrition is high in the cube metagame, you want to increase your deck's creature density, and decrease the number of spells that rely on creatures sticking.

RTR limited is a great example of a combat trick laden environment done well. Selesnya alone had something like six combat tricks in the mix. At the same time, most of the set's removal was conditional, or expensive. Your gold creatures are immune to Ultimate Price; your opponent needs 6 open mana for Explosive Impact; their empty board means they can't cast Launch Party. And so on.

Toning down removal in a cube environment has a cascading effect. If removal is now going to miss half the creatures, or require some finesse to set up, creatures in turn need to be dialed back. Otherwise, the likes of Hero of Bladehold or Wolfir Silverheart will end every game on the spot. To say nothing of the game-dominating Titans, which cubes are having trouble containing even now.

If creatures are weakened, spells might also need to take a hit to fall in line. I don't know. I don't want to think about it any more.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
One thing about combat tricks is that (like auras) they add another layer to your plans. A combat trick is useless without a creature, so having combat tricks in your deck increases the chance of having a bad hand. Some decks really don't care too much about blocking profitably, so the trick aspect of them is limited. I think for these cards to work, they need to have enough breadth to have value against most decks or have some strong synergy to work. Prey's Vengeance can win a combat, but it also can be 4 damage for 1, blank enemy burn or double trigger heroic and many times it can do 2 of these things. Vines of Vastwood also work well because of this flexibility. Shelter is pretty flexible and can at the very least cycle on the rare occasion its completely useless. Bloodlust lets your pinger kill mostly anything while also done tons of damage with any doublestriker. While I don't run it currently, I see the advantages of swift justice too.

So, besides the things we've talked about before (removal speed and density), if you want to include tricks you really can't include too many because lists can't really include that many and you should probably go toward the flexible ones unless there is specific synergy you are trying to exploit.
 
Changling Bob

Changling Bob

The decks that don't care about blocking profitably don't care about tricks, so they just don't draft them; this leaves them open to table to the creature decks that do want to combat profitably.

At some point we should really do some analysis of trick density, creature density, theme density etc etc in printed sets, to see if it matches up with our expectations; I feel like we'd probably be surprised by some of these things.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I love these effects and run 2 of them (Shelter and Emerge Unscathed). Which ones you end up picking depends on what you want to encourage, but mostly they play exactly the same: white falter/situational counterspell/damage prevention. They are useless against non-damage sweepers, though, so if you run a lot of wrath of god and friends as your #1 line of defense against creatures they devalue somewhat.
 
Dougggggg

Dougggggg

Reigning Draft Champion
I feel like wraths should be limited in quantity anyways. They are backbreaking against aggro especially in high numbers. I feel like the flexibility of those spells make them better as combat tricks for since they have uses against non creature strategies while something like Giant Growth becomes a bad Lava Spike.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Dougggg et al -- the design difficulty I'm having is a limited number of Wraths but also an equilibrium number of "Wrath counters" at zero, so I'm not sure how to have a good gameplay dynamic...
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
There just aren't too many wrath counters and some of them don't even work against all wraths!

I mean, you have caller of the claw, rootborn defenses, boros charm, second sunrise and ready // willing. Most of these cost three, which put them in the "cancel" category of badness. 3 of them do nothing against Black Sun's Zenith/Toxic Deluge/Mutilate/Drown in Sorrow and none of them do anything against Terminus/Hallowed Burial. Against those cards what can you play? Blue? Legion's Initiative?

I agree wraths are a tough design area.
 
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