Card/Deck Start your Engines: A Temur Card Advantage Deck

[sigh]

Loving all the poking into nooks and crannies for what cards this archetype wants to be looking for. I think it's important to continually ask "what does this deck really need to be doing?", once that question finds answers the cards become clearer. Looking now in the direction of "The Spiral" thread for further insight into a new possible design approach.

The big take away for me so far is the "the cards should be naturally pickable, and the drafter can end up in the cool deck on their own" sorta deal.

I like talking about Moment's Peace. Its a good card for slower G decks, there's no arguing that. I think it might be a little bit of a trap card for this deck though. It does nothing to really gain you more resources (except give you time, bit so do chump blockers). I'm comparing it largely to:

The difference I'm seeing is that Pulse is also gaining you resources, resources that could in turn gain you more resources (yavimaya elder, for instance).

When I finally get the gumption (and time), there are some sweet decks that I want to lay out and talk about. This thread is getting somewhere!

EDIT: I also like gnaw to the bone for time-buying. Has cool play to it of having to have enough dudes in the 'yard, and how did they get there? Which in turn plays into a primary strategy of the archetype, early value-generating dudes that are ok going to the bin in the name of chumping/sacrifice/sweepers etc.

 

[japahn]

Moment's Peace gives you a lot more than 6 life. It buys two precious turns for a 6 mana wrath. It wins races. It offers insurance to blowouts. It can be cast even if it was milled away.

 

[sigh]

Moment's Peace gives you a lot more than 6 life. It buys two precious turns for a 6 mana wrath. It wins races. It offers insurance to blowouts. It can be cast even if it was milled away.

It does do all of that. It's definitely better than Pulse of Murasa in some ways. For that reason, I appended Gnaw to the Bone, which can buy you more than 2 turns, and has more interesting interactivity than Peace.

Edit: and I'm definitely not trying to rule Peace out. Gnaw to the Bone is in the same position as a trap, imho. Both are still up in my little mental puddle of G options

 

[RavebornMuse]

It does do all of that. It's definitely better than Pulse of Murasa in some ways. For that reason, I appended Gnaw to the Bone, which can buy you more than 2 turns, and has more interesting interactivity than Peace.

Edit: and I'm definitely not trying to rule Peace out. Gnaw to the Bone is in the same position as a trap, imho. Both are still up in my little mental puddle of G options

After a significant amount of testing, I can firmly recommend not running Gnaw to the Bone.

From my own thread:

Also, Gnaw to the Bone got cut? For power level issues? What kind of horseshit is that, right? Turns out it tends to read something like : "Gain 20 life. Maybe 30. But you're going to win, is my point." Who knew, huh

edit: I am very interested in Moment's Peace though, which is probably equally sinful? I'm thinking of testing it soon, but I do have some reservations. I mean, I'd never put a blue Moment's Peace in my list, so I'm not sure if it's correct to put a green one in... It's probably a heavy-handed attempt to encourage control, but hey, nobody said this had to be a nuanced art form, right?

 

[sigh]

Also a legitimate concern! I haven't seen it so consistently abused in my own cube, but I guess Moments Peace has a more stable ACS?

In the end, neither card affects the board. Its for this reason, and I guess potential overpower reasons, I like Pulse of Murasa. It actively works to rebuy resources you lost earlier so you can bring your board back to stability. The example I've run around in my head has been to run out nissa, vastwood seer, chump/trade with her later (before seven lands), Pulse her back, play her, play land 7 (which she may have tutored up), get beefy tree on defense and a little life buffer.

 

[sigh]

So I've had a little time to see a tidal wave of CubeTutor drafts wash over my cube, and to get a five-man draft down IRL. Two main victories from this past two weeks or so: The RUG Gifts combo-control deck works. It'll probably come together once or twice annually, but it works. My thread has the ranting and raving. I haven't even gotten around to constructively working UG and UR into the picture and it's already proving it's worth... yay.
Secondly, and more in the now, the grind-control package is also working. Way better than I thought it would on "first draft". Not only am I getting legitimate control-midrange drafts, as this thread is meant for... I'm getting grindfest decks, control decks, control decks, you name it! Now maybe that's partially because people want to test out the robustness of the theory, which is awesome, but check out some of these decks below:
Important to discuss: a lot of these decks are definitely fusions. I'm not trying to delude myself or anybody else. Midrange is the name of Green's game, and it's so, so hard to fully peel the color away from that. And then again, why fully do it? That would just be fighting the full nature of the color philosophy. What I'm working towards, and what these decks are working to exemplify, is a green section that has an option for pushing to the long game. These decks aren't relying on ramp to blast them ahead of the game, they are using that as one option in a package of 1) early game value generation, into 2) late game board presence, stabilization, and finishing (aka the control route via card advantage and mana superiority into the late game).

Spoiler: Red Green decks, a la where this thread has been focusing

GrilloParlante's draft of Sigh, A Cube on 30/04/2016 from CubeTutor.com

Alfonzo_Bonzo's draft of Sigh, A Cube on 30/04/2016 from CubeTutor.com

Spoiler: Green Black grindy decks utilizing a slow-game green plan

ColonelSanders's draft of Sigh, A Cube on 30/04/2016 from CubeTutor.com

GrilloParlante's draft of Sigh, A Cube on 30/04/2016 from CubeTutor.com

Spoiler: Green White control-midrange awesomeness

green white control from CubeTutor.com

Spoiler: Bant Seasons Past Control, utilizing the long-game green plan

Season's Past from CubeTutor.com

Spoiler: RUG ENGINE DECK

Loamfire from CubeTutor.com

Look at all these beauties! Again, some of these don't fit into the control schema discription well at all. What I'm trying to do is break down the long-plan decks vs. the short-plan decks. I think this might be a more general and holistic way to think about decks appearing in games. Most classic midrange decks do everything to push the game to a close as fast as possible through ramp, blocker removal, etc. I'm working to get, at the very least, midrange decks working to grind up advantage and shine in the late game, the long-plan decks. I think it can go farther than that, so I'm overwhelmed with happiness at the amount of data, decks, etc to look at and work out what the next steps could be.

Speaking of reaching next steps, I think it largely diverges from being a forum-wide development, to a format specific one. I think it's hard to no agree that fully sculpting this baseline is virtually impossible to do one way, for everyone. For now I'm just very happy that building in a long-plan green core actually can work. And in IRL games too! My five man report, linked at the beginning, shows two decks utilizing this package.

Next up is to figure/re-discover how to properly get and incentivize a long-plan section. I'm seeing good results with the engine/sweeper approach, but I'm realizing that the "generic" support is important to consider too! Look to Grillo's new cube list for discussion on that...

So to cap it off, here's where I'm at now with my Green-base value engine control package:


Edit: I realize this might seem like a grade A "blog" post... oh well, I guess... I want this work to be easily available for discussion in the context of more than just my cube.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

To comment on these cards:



I love gnaw to the bone even more than I love crypt incursion. These are polarizing effects though because they feel kind of like spell based threats in a control or midrange deck. If you have control tools, and can stabilize against aggro or midrange, resolving either one of those spells feels like GG as it moves you far out of range of whatever their reach plan was. In any sort of racing situation, the giant life swings can also effectively feel like GG.

This isn't necessarily a bad effect to have though, if you have a very pressure or creature oriented format. They are both low power cards at the end of the day, and require the game be developed in certain ways to feel like a knock-out.



This is a very good card for all the reasons japhan gave, and plays much better than it looks, though I feel it occupies a fairly narrow niche. All it does is delay you from losing, which is fine if you are building up to something.



This is the most generically strong card of the three. Its two spell effects in one card, and if one of the cards you are getting back has an ETB, thats a lot of value.

 

[xyz]

I like the talk about Zendikar Resurgent and co! Its an angle that I didn't really think much on until now, tbh. I think the way to make the effect feel a little less durdly is to attach a body. The two options that are really attracting me so far:

You can create a really interesting dynamic with the Sage by having a higher count of non-creature ramp, thus stuffing it in a deck with lots of ramp = stuffing it in a deck with less synergy with itself, therefor making it better with the non-ramp green creatures, ie promoting the strategy being built up in this thread, but still good stuff? Did I do it? Or is that just BS?

Bonus:

Woah, woah. You should try it before hopping on the "durdly" verdict. If your measure of durdlyness is that it doesn't kill them on the spot like Craterhoof Behemoth, then sure I agree. And I guess if casting 3-4 medium sized creatures the next turn is durdly...then I guess you can call it that? But I would disagree and say that casting all those creatures is actively closing the game out. Again, it is format sensitive, but I would try it before making further judgment. Heck, I probably need to test more too. My experience might have been unusually good.

I think Zendikar Resurgent being less vulnerable than Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage is a big deal. Having your finisher be easily killed for no value is not good in control deck. The mana advantage for a controlling deck is also very nice.

That's probably more accurate than inaccurate, but will require tuning.

~~~

What do we want to say about Mirari's Wake? I run it too, but see it as a different kind of card. It is more of a combo/ramp card, whereas Zendikar Resurgent is more of a finisher/value engine.

~~~

I pretty much agree with Grillo on the space for those cards. Gnaw to the Bone and Moment's Peace are pretty niche, go in only a few decks, and feel kinda lame to play against. Pulse of Murasa encourages control in a more generic way by going in more types of control decks. Also, it doesn't feel too unfair to play against.

~~~

Depending on power level, I would consider Seismic Assault over Molten Vortex. The activation cost is really limiting in my opinion. Without the the cost, Seismic Assault can feel borderline too strong at times, but a high power level is exactly what you want to attract people towards a niche strategy. (That whole synergy > raw power discussion we were having in the other thread)

 

[sigh]

Woah, woah. You should try it before hopping on the "durdly" verdict. If your measure of durdlyness is that it doesn't kill them on the spot like Craterhoof Behemoth, then sure I agree. And I guess if casting 3-4 medium sized creatures the next turn is durdly...then I guess you can call it that? But I would disagree and say that casting all those creatures is actively closing the game out. Again, it is format sensitive, but I would try it before making further judgment. Heck, I probably need to test more too. My experience might have been unusually good.

I think Zendikar Resurgent being less vulnerable than Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage is a big deal. Having your finisher be easily killed for no value is not good in control deck. The mana advantage for a controlling deck is also very nice.

Don't get me wrong, I love the card. I've also played it in both EDH and made a cool Zendikar Resurgent/Warp World/The Great Aurora "combo" deck in the reject rare cube. It was durdly there. It's durdly in EDH, the durdliest of formats. And it, as a card, is almost undeniably "durdly" just by its nautre. It's hoping for a longer game after it to make good on the bonuses it's offering. It doesn't add a body to the board. It's a seven mana enchantment Etc. Etc. My two options are pretty slow-game too! that's why I said "less durdly".

Either of the two I mentioned are generally less durdly by default if only because they are a 6/6 trampler, a 4/5, a body. If the opponent can't remove it, they can threaten quite a bit of damage. As in, their ability to end the game on their own is higher than ZR's is.

You bring up a good point about removability. If a format is lacking on noncreature permanent hate, a swingy effect on an enchantment can spell doom to the opponent precisely because it's virtually impossible to remove. I prefer my games, at any point in the game, to be slightly more interactive than that, but for certain play groups and styles this could be a definite plus. Also why I brought up Regal Force, because it replaces itself at a bare minimum, and has a higher ceiling by far than that.

Some more points for what I might end up picking or testing:

• Zendikar Resurgent is good in the kinda pyromancer's goggles big mana decks, where doubling mana for a fireball is approaching combo level on it's own
• Soul of the Harvest can do cute stuff with blink etc.
• Both Primordial Sage and Regal Force have 5 toughness. That's important because I've started to notice/figure out what my critical toughnesses are, and it seems like 3 and 6 are pretty big game. This means they are slightly more interactive at 5 toughness, which I like (but might be a bad thing in this case?)

I'm tempting myself into throwing ZR into the cube as card 406 for a bit, just to see what it does... because testing >>theory in the end, and you've gotta have some reason for liking it so much. Do you have any sample decklists with ZR in the main? It'd be cool to see what decks in your format support it well.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Don't get me wrong, I love the card. I've also played it in both EDH and made a cool Zendikar Resurgent/Warp World/The Great Aurora "combo" deck in the reject rare cube. It was durdly there. It's durdly in EDH, the durdliest of formats. And it, as a card, is almost undeniably "durdly" just by its nautre. It's hoping for a longer game after it to make good on the bonuses it's offering. It doesn't add a body to the board. It's a seven mana enchantment Etc. Etc. My two options are pretty slow-game too! that's why I said "less durdly".

Either of the two I mentioned are generally less durdly by default if only because they are a 6/6 trampler, a 4/5, a body. If the opponent can't remove it, they can threaten quite a bit of damage. As in, their ability to end the game on their own is higher than ZR's is.

You bring up a good point about removability. If a format is lacking on noncreature permanent hate, a swingy effect on an enchantment can spell doom to the opponent precisely because it's virtually impossible to remove. I prefer my games, at any point in the game, to be slightly more interactive than that, but for certain play groups and styles this could be a definite plus. Also why I brought up Regal Force, because it replaces itself at a bare minimum, and has a higher ceiling by far than that.

Some more points for what I might end up picking or testing:

• Zendikar Resurgent is good in the kinda pyromancer's goggles big mana decks, where doubling mana for a fireball is approaching combo level on it's own
• Soul of the Harvest can do cute stuff with blink etc.
• Both Primordial Sage and Regal Force have 5 toughness. That's important because I've started to notice/figure out what my critical toughnesses are, and it seems like 3 and 6 are pretty big game. This means they are slightly more interactive at 5 toughness, which I like (but might be a bad thing in this case?)

I have to express a few sticking points here.

From the first, this passing fancy of "combos with Pyromancer's Goggles" just seems so out of place. While I'm glad Goggles has caught on here on Riptide, it isn't exactly something I think needs pushing across colours, and certainly not off the back of a 7-mana, mana-doubling, cares-about-creatures enchantment. After all, a double Fireball at 7 mana is already itself 12 damage, which should be damn near game-ending, and if you're going ramp-and-red-spells-matter line, you can probably get by better and more consistently off of other ramping tools. I'm interested in ZR myself, but this looks like a trip in the wrong direction to me.

Your proposed blink shenanigans with Soul of the Harvest also necessarily ask the caster to be in a or shell, with at least 1 other creature on the board, to draw a card. This is asking a lot I think and feels very win-more, as well as already being done quite well and quite boringly by old standbys like Sea Gate Oracle; similar to the "don't make worse so that can do it equally" point made early on in this thread, I think "don't try to promote a boring theme as a boring theme" should be considered here, especially since 99% of the time, the effects will just be tucked into other decks.

Moving more specifically into bigger, more theoretical contentions...

While you're fair to criticize enchantments as being typically noninteractive in most cubes, I think that's probably not the best way to be approaching expensive control cards. After we get above 5 mana, things really need to have an impact in most formats, and especially aggro-friendly Riptide lists. Sure, ZR is potentially impossible for your opponent to remove, but for a 7-mana enchantment that almost certainly won't start paying off until your next turn, I'd say if you can untap with it on the board, you've damn-well earned the right to get some use out of it - some use, which I might add, won't always necessarily be game-ending.

Further complicating the maximized-interactivity-is-fun theory you're using against ZR is that it appears to be, from my perspective, self-regulating. I mean, you say above that the bodies on these creatures make them a potential "win-con" for being able to swing and generate value while also being balanced by being removable; is ZR not balanced equally by being hard-to-remove (but not impossible, mind), capable of generating value, but unable to swing at all? If anything, this seems like precisely where you want to be in a thread about "Starting [one's] Engines", right?

I mean hey, your format is your format, do what you want with it, but I think you have to suspend a certain expectation of interactivity from time to time. I personally think it's really fun, flavourful, and cool that enchantments and artifacts are harder-to-remove, similar to how I think it's really fun, flavourful, and cool that counterspells are almost always blue and burn spells are almost always red. It's a dimension of the game that can be busted to high heavens if you allow it to be, but will often just be a cool thing your drafters come to expect and, under repeated exposure to such cards, will begin to prioritize removal for. FYI Pyromancer's Goggles is in the same hard-to-remove camp and is wildly more playable and more likely to end the game in a hurry than ZR is, so I guess I'm just skeptical of this "noninteractive" argument, since it seems to be missing some serious culprits in your own list if this is a concern, culprits which, while I agree are hella cool and hella fun, are similarly powerful thanks in large part to being harder to remove.

With regards to creature specifically (and more specifically, the ones you've suggested), without an ETB trigger, 6+ drops are typically too risky in most Riptide formats, and in all these proposed cases, it looks like the potential rewards don't really offset the risks. I personally can't imagine risking eating the tempo loss in any format of dropping a Primordial Sage, because it could easily die before I can generate any value off of it, and being a 6-drop that belongs in decks that cast creatures (thus rendering it less friendly to cheaty bullshit), that's really not great. And of course, Regal Force suffers for being a card that ramp will rarely play and that reanimator has little interest in as well, but I'm at least more open-minded about that, because I can theoretically see some really low-power format that wants for it. But these options feel very lackluster to me, and, looking at your own cube list, all fail to compete against your other 6+ creatures (Moltensteel Dragon excluded). If you want creatures as low powered as Primordial Sage, Soul of the Harvest, and Regal Force to make an impact on your list, you'll need to tinker down removal power level a fair bit, as well as stripping away virtually all of your current, very bomby 6+ drops. But honestly given the kind of strong environment you've got, I can't imagine many decks are going to have the time to drop ZR; I think if someone builds a deck capable of making that time, they should be rewarded for it, and your format looks pretty ideal for such a big bomb since it's really 1 of many, but again, I totally respect if your design philosophy holds you back from taking that leap, we've all got our hangups (mine's ugly art)

 

[sigh]

Spoiler: RBM's post

I have to express a few sticking points here.

From the first, this passing fancy of "combos with Pyromancer's Goggles" just seems so out of place. While I'm glad Goggles has caught on here on Riptide, it isn't exactly something I think needs pushing across colours, and certainly not off the back of a 7-mana, mana-doubling, cares-about-creatures enchantment. After all, a double Fireball at 7 mana is already itself 12 damage, which should be damn near game-ending, and if you're going ramp-and-red-spells-matter line, you can probably get by better and more consistently off of other ramping tools. I'm interested in ZR myself, but this looks like a trip in the wrong direction to me.

Your proposed blink shenanigans with Soul of the Harvest also necessarily ask the caster to be in a or shell, with at least 1 other creature on the board, to draw a card. This is asking a lot I think and feels very win-more, as well as already being done quite well and quite boringly by old standbys like Sea Gate Oracle; similar to the "don't make worse so that can do it equally" point made early on in this thread, I think "don't try to promote a boring theme as a boring theme" should be considered here, especially since 99% of the time, the effects will just be tucked into other decks.

Moving more specifically into bigger, more theoretical contentions...

While you're fair to criticize enchantments as being typically noninteractive in most cubes, I think that's probably not the best way to be approaching expensive control cards. After we get above 5 mana, things really need to have an impact in most formats, and especially aggro-friendly Riptide lists. Sure, ZR is potentially impossible for your opponent to remove, but for a 7-mana enchantment that almost certainly won't start paying off until your next turn, I'd say if you can untap with it on the board, you've damn-well earned the right to get some use out of it - some use, which I might add, won't always necessarily be game-ending.

Further complicating the maximized-interactivity-is-fun theory you're using against ZR is that it appears to be, from my perspective, self-regulating. I mean, you say above that the bodies on these creatures make them a potential "win-con" for being able to swing and generate value while also being balanced by being removable; is ZR not balanced equally by being hard-to-remove (but not impossible, mind), capable of generating value, but unable to swing at all? If anything, this seems like precisely where you want to be in a thread about "Starting [one's] Engines", right?

I mean hey, your format is your format, do what you want with it, but I think you have to suspend a certain expectation of interactivity from time to time. I personally think it's really fun, flavourful, and cool that enchantments and artifacts are harder-to-remove, similar to how I think it's really fun, flavourful, and cool that counterspells are almost always blue and burn spells are almost always red. It's a dimension of the game that can be busted to high heavens if you allow it to be, but will often just be a cool thing your drafters come to expect and, under repeated exposure to such cards, will begin to prioritize removal for. FYI Pyromancer's Goggles is in the same hard-to-remove camp and is wildly more playable and more likely to end the game in a hurry than ZR is, so I guess I'm just skeptical of this "noninteractive" argument, since it seems to be missing some serious culprits in your own list if this is a concern, culprits which, while I agree are hella cool and hella fun, are similarly powerful thanks in large part to being harder to remove.

With regards to creature specifically (and more specifically, the ones you've suggested), without an ETB trigger, 6+ drops are typically too risky in most Riptide formats, and in all these proposed cases, it looks like the potential rewards don't really offset the risks. I personally can't imagine risking eating the tempo loss in any format of dropping a Primordial Sage, because it could easily die before I can generate any value off of it, and being a 6-drop that belongs in decks that cast creatures (thus rendering it less friendly to cheaty bullshit), that's really not great. And of course, Regal Force suffers for being a card that ramp will rarely play and that reanimator has little interest in as well, but I'm at least more open-minded about that, because I can theoretically see some really low-power format that wants for it. But these options feel very lackluster to me, and, looking at your own cube list, all fail to compete against your other 6+ creatures (Moltensteel Dragon excluded). If you want creatures as low powered as Primordial Sage, Soul of the Harvest, and Regal Force to make an impact on your list, you'll need to tinker down removal power level a fair bit, as well as stripping away virtually all of your current, very bomby 6+ drops. But honestly given the kind of strong environment you've got, I can't imagine many decks are going to have the time to drop ZR; I think if someone builds a deck capable of making that time, they should be rewarded for it, and your format looks pretty ideal for such a big bomb since it's really 1 of many, but again, I totally respect if your design philosophy holds you back from taking that leap, we've all got our hangups (mine's ugly art)

first off. you guys already won, jesus christ. The card's getting tested.

2. I only mention goggles to evoke the go big burn-beatdown deck. I'll make sure to be more careful next time. This is archetype development time still, right? I just thought it was fitting cuz of that....

3. Alright. I certainly hope thinking about one card, with one offhand comment, isn't forcing a theme onto my drafters. If you haven't seen all my random interjections of weirdo combos and synergies for cards, I guess it makes sense that my method of thinking doesn't jive. reference:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/ogw-oath-of-the-gatewatch-spoiler-thread.1026/page-20#post-51323

4-7. Ok, you got me. Maybe thinking of it the way I was is a little bit off-base, because it's such top end. I've already got some offenders. ZR is in fact a great engine card and I'm happy it's being discussed. You got me. you got me.


PS. I'm trying to figure out the hate for Regal Force. At WCS it's a 5/5 for 7 that replaces itself. Not great, but honestly not as shitty as people seem to be making it out to be (imo). And I highly doubt the ACS will be "cast it onto an empty board". 5/5 that draws you 2-4 cards? Seems nice to me, but what do I know.

PPS. I've run Regal Force in my cube in the past. Card's fine. Discussed with my top drafter. They agreed.

PPPS. Tried for like an hour to think of some things more worthwhile to say. Failed. Sorry.

 

[RavebornMuse]

first off. you guys already won, jesus christ. The card's getting tested.

Hey, it's all good! Don't mistake my post as an argument for ZR's own sake - the card is probably going to be last-pick material in a lot of environments due to Mirari's Wake syndrome. I was moreso posting for the sake of theoretical discussion re: bodies vs hard-to-hit noncreature permanents as control cards. I think it's an important concept to consider if we're looking at nontraditional contol, because level of interactivity is a big subject on Riptide, and I figured it'd be useful to open that discussion. Definitely not trying to bully you into running a durdly EDH engine; the card is clearly gonna be very playgroup-dependent.

PS. I'm trying to figure out the hate for Regal Force. At WCS it's a 5/5 for 7 that replaces itself. Not great, but honestly not as shitty as people seem to be making it out to be (imo). And I highly doubt the ACS will be "cast it onto an empty board". 5/5 that draws you 2-4 cards? Seems nice to me, but what do I know

If your drafters will play Regal Force, by all means, run it, but a 5/5 that draws one card is a really weak WCS and that's an important way to analyze expensive cards; not how bomby it could be landing on a board of mana dorks, but how well (or not) it functions when you're running behind. I'd frankly be more open-minded if it was one less and had a keyword, but as-is I just see it as a dead end. Art's cool tho so I mean if you can get it working, hey, go for it!

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

It just is that 6-7cc spells/creatures that grant incremental advantage seem like they would feel more authentic in environments where the game is going to go on another 6-7 turns.

Sometimes a card can still be playable, but not really be playable in the satisfying manner it was intended to. Thats kind of how regal force seems to me.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Kreygasm

URG Engine from CubeTutor.com

Let's talk about bouncelands for a second. They do so many great things in this archetype (automatic fuel for Pack Guardian and Magmatic Insight as well as Looting/Tormenting Voice/Compulsive Research, can feed a Firestorm or Dev Dreams, reuse lands with CIPT effects (Radiant Fountain, hideaway lands, Temples), a free discard outlet on the draw) but taking a turn off to play them is so dangerous in most faster environments. What's the highest power level that still supports them?
-

 

[Suicufnoc]

Quick point: Doubles fetches seems like a huge deal for making life from the loam playable.

 

[xyz]

I'm tempting myself into throwing ZR into the cube as card 406 for a bit, just to see what it does... because testing >>theory in the end, and you've gotta have some reason for liking it so much. Do you have any sample decklists with ZR in the main? It'd be cool to see what decks in your format support it well.

Last night I got a chance to do a heads up "pancake draft" with my roommate. Before even inviting him to draft, I had full intentions of forcing a Zendikar Resurgent deck at my next draft (be it a 2 man with my roommate which I do semi regularly, or a full 8 man) for the benefit of the forums. So we sit down and, lo and behold, my first pack has Zendikar Resurgent in it. Windmill slam. The pack also has Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and Academy Rector, both of which pair amazingly with Zendikar Resurgent and would be delightful "wheels". As it turns out, my roommate first picked Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, 2nd+3rd picked Glen Elendra Archmage + Venser, Shaper Savant, and binned 2 other cards. So I got both my dream picks back and was SO HYPE for the rest of the draft.

My deck turned out to be an amazing ramp/combo deck:

Spoiler

Not pictured: 7 Forests

Hard to see:

• Fieldmist Borderpost (behind the Moorland Haunt)
• Oath of Nissa (behind the Springleaf Drum)

Some cards that weren't being played:

• Body Double, Regrowth, Scavenging Ooze ... This is not a midrange deck that expects to fill up the yard.
• Primal Command ... This deck has enough ways to find a big pay off and it really wants to maximize the number of creatures.
• Boon Satyr, Bounding Krasis, Nature's Claim ... This deck's plan is not to gain incremental value through tricks/interaction.
• Utopia Sprawl ... Probably worse than Springleaf Drum, which can fix for any color and is pretty much always on in this deck.

Other maindeck thoughts:

• The land count in this deck was tough to figure out. On the one hand, you need a fair number of actual lands for Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Mox Diamond, Oath of Nissa, Standstill, and the mana rocks/elves. On the other hand, I ended up with quite a few mana sources in the deck. I did end up with a fair number of mana sinks/things that make the mana dorks better, so it didn't feel too far off.
• Dream Halls was definitely a sketchy one given the match-up. He was more of a blue deck (in other words more card draw and instant speed interaction to abuse Dream Halls), but I really wanted to see how it'd work in this type of a deck.
• Standstill is even more of a sketcher in this match-up because he'll usually be ahead on board. I should have put more thought into boarding it out. On the other hand, the rationale for maindecking it and leaving it in was that on an even board my deck gains a lot more from the extra time spent just making land drops, since it can do more proactively powerful things with the mana and it can do those things in a small time window. Oh, and Moorland Haunt I guess.

My roommate's deck for reference:

Spoiler

Some cards that weren't being played:

• Delver of Secrets ... He reckoned 7 hits was too few. Initially I agreed. On second consideration, Delver would have been a very good threat against me (minimal flying defense; no removal) and potentially worth the stretch. Ponder and Preordain artificially increases the hit count, which helps a bit. He also had 4 fetchlands and an extra Verdant Catacombs in the board (it would only fetch a swamp) to synergize well with Delver.
• Verdant Catacombs ... Even without Delver, it probably should have been in. It is good with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Dig Through Time, and Ponder. And my deck didn't incrementally pressure his life total enough for it to matter. And it would probably be a benefit to virtually lower his land count slightly.
• Asylum Visitor ... I'm not sure about this one; it is still being tested after all. It has synergy with the two looters and it is another aggressive creature to pressure me with. But I'm not sure it gets through on the ground easily and it doesn't really clear a path for something else either. But it also doesn't have a super hard time either, compared to some of the other ground stalling green decks we have drafted.
• Frantic Search ... In the dark, this deck has no real synergies with Frantic Search, but it might be right given the match-up. It would make Delver better and it's another outlet for Asylum Visitor. It also synergizes with Asylum Visitor in that the Visitor helps make up for the card disadvantage. It also felt like the match-up did not hinge on him needing every last card as much as it did on him needing to find the right cards that could meaningfully interact with me.
• Mystical Tutor, Gifts Ungiven ... Most likely not the right deck. There might be an argument for Mystical Tutor to set up Delver. But Dig Through Time seems like the only worthy target. Maybe Toxic Deluge is that important in a pinch?

Other maindeck thoughts:

• In this match-up, Kira, Great Glass-Spinner was a hard to cast Wind Drake that sometimes gained flash. Probably should have been boarded out.
• While I think Deceiver Exarch is a good maindeck disruptive option in a tempo deck, this was not the right match-up. The blocking function (which is actually fairly important) was not relevant.
• Mimic Vat is a really tricky one. It's usually such an all-star, but there is a good argument for boarding it out. It is a slow and grindy card, but that's not what he was looking for in this match-up. He needed fast and cheap interaction. On the other hand, the soft lock with Silumgar Sorcerer might have been good enough to win a game almost by itself.
• Toxic Deluge ... Wow, this is an even harder one to evaluate. It goes far against the main aggro plan, but does a decent job in the disruptive plan. I think in the end it gets a pass because of the multiple looters.

The games:

Game 1:
I have a fast start with T3 Thragtusk -> T4 Master Biomancer but he pressures me with Rattlechains + Nightveil Specter which hits my Phantasmal Image to copy Thragtusk and help him stabilize on the ground. Then, as I am flooding, he lands Bident of Thassa to close out the game... except that, thanks to having two saboteur triggers (Bident and Specter), he forgets the Bident triggers. I untap, and slam a lucky top decked Call, boosted by Master Biomancer. My roommate untaps and tilt concedes at his 2 missed Bident triggers . He looks at his next few cards and later relays that if he had remembered the triggers he would have drawn 2 lands off of the top, played one, cast Phyrexian Metamorph to copy Master Biomancer (in the real timeline he couldn't because he had 6 lands, and 4 were tapped for Bident), and then the following turn draw and cast Master of Waves with devotion = 9. Yikes. I am 1-0 thanks to a few missed triggers.

Game 2:
I have another fast start, and it caps off with a T5 Zendikar Resurgent, but with only Beck//Call left in hand. On his t6 , he Nightveil Specters into a Forest off the top of my deck, Phyrexian Metamorphs my Wickerbough Elder, and uses the Forest to blow up my Zendikar Resurgent. Good beats. Luckily, I draw Nest Invader and chain Beck-> Nest Invader -> Master Biomancer to refuel. Oh, and the Master Biomancer is great with my Moorland Haunt + 2 creatures in graveyard against his board of Rattlechains and Nightveil Specter (again). (That Moorland Haunt would have been the 3rd draw for Beck if I hadn't drawn into Master Biomancer. So that was some sweet back up value.) Unfortunately, my roommate lapsed on that interaction when his Nightveil Specter got in on the following turn and hit Standstill ...which he proceeded to cast ...and then facepalmed as soon as I untapped and passed back. A turn cycle later (and a turn cycle too late perhaps?), he was forced to break the Standstill in what ended up being a a close race where he was short by 1 point/1 turn. Roomate: 0. Roomate's mistakes: 2.

Game 3:
I have ANOTHER fast start with t1 Joraga Treespeaker -> t2 Sakura-Tribe Elder -> t3 Master Biomancer. At this point he had the option of casting one half of Far // Away. The problem is bouncing Joraga Treespeaker is pretty awkward with Master Biomancer on board and making me sacrifice the Treespeaker probably isn't ideal either. So he opts to wait and have the choice between bouncing my Master Biomancer in response to a creature or casting Rattlechains at end of turn. Awkwardly for him, I cast a t5 Zendikar Resurgent (with Oath of Nissa, Noble Hierarch, and Standstill left in hand). On his turn, he bites the bullet and fuses Far // Away, bouncing my Joraga Treespeaker and making me sacrifice Master Biomancer. I untap with 5 lands and Zendikar Resurgent in play and 4 cards in hand. I pass the turn with the following board:



...oh and a hand of land, Craterhoof Behemoth, and Wickerbough Elder. That Wickerbough Elder could have instead been a Wall of Blossoms in play and 2 more cards hand, but I figured Wickerbough Elder was the safer Oath of Nissa pickup. And besides, Zendikar Resurgent basically already won the game. My roommate drew and scooped.

Normally we play best of 7 sets, but he had enough. End result: 3-0 on the back of good draws, some misplays, and an masterpiece of a deck.

Closing Thoughts

I'm not sure how representative these games were of the match-up. Obviously, my roommate had a few incorrect lines and potentially a few incorrect build choices. But in theory, I believe that, in the dark, a tempo deck is favored against a ramp/combo deck. In this case however, I think my roommate's deck is a little lighter on disruptive interaction and a little heavier on defensive interaction, which made the games closer for me.

Starting with T1 Joraga Treespeaker all three games was really lucky/helpful. Even if he only got one activation in each of the first two games before dying to a Nameless Inversion. I didn't even have him in the opener of the 3rd game. I already thought my hand was great with Noble Hierarch, but eh my first draw was a nice upgrade.

Master Biomancer was ridiculous. This was not really an over performance. It is usually great in all Blue Green decks. (Not sure how aware people are of this, but there's your PSA.)

Beck // Call way over-performed other people's presumable expectations. However, these games demonstrate my normal expectations for it. These may have been some best case scenarios, but I really do think it is a sweet sweet combo card that has relevant non-combo applications and thus is worth playing. Besides, the real best case scenario would have been fusing it off of Dream Halls and going offfffffffffff.

I drew Enlightened Tutor in both of my first two game, but I was behind / low of resources at those points, and none of my targets were good in those situations. A good thing to keep in mind when drafting an Enlightened Tutor "package". In this deck, it was more of an extra combo piece.

I never got to cast Academy Rector or Dream Halls. (Or Survival of the Fittest/Craterhoof Behemoth, but I've played with those enough times.)

This was not a great match-up for Zendikar Resurgent, but it still had a chance to shine. Take it as you will. It never got countered, which I would expect more of. On the other hand, I would not expect a Blue Black to be able to deal with a resolved enchantment so easily. It would not have been worse than Primeval Bounty in that case, but a 7 cmc creature would have provided more value. On the other hand, a 7 cmc creature probably would not have won game 3 that fast or convincingly.

And with that, I conclude my draft recap blog post on your cube blog thread.

 

[xyz]

Also, I realize that deck was not quite the card advantage green deck you were looking for but * shrug *

 

[Suicufnoc]

How is beck/call?

 

[sigh]

I love beck // call personally. Cool simic card with this neato splash you can make that lets it go off on its own. I've thought about the card on several occasions.

That draft report is amazing . Is ZR actually better at higher power levels??? That cube looks way out of mines league, nut it almost seems more at home there. You've got tutors, efficient ways to get it out early, and efficient ways to utilize the advantage! Interesting...

The wackiest mana base for supporting the land-eating control archetype
2x fetch
2x shock
1x bounceland

As Dom brings up, Bounce lands are very good with this archetype. I'm honestly tempted just to jam the RG one. It hints at a slower deck in that color combination, it helps the deck out, and you don't have to push out an entire cycle. Thoughts?

Oo, also cool stuff and ~artifact support~


Edit: further thoughts on Regal force. In ramp it might be coming down T4, not T 7, so there is plenty of gamespace left to spew out the gas you just drew. In control the game might actually go another several turns. That's how control is. Casting sphinx's revelation doesn't mean you have to use the spells all in the next turn.

 

[psly4mne]

View attachment 939

Lands in front and creatures stacked? You monster.

 

[xyz]

* sigh *
I spent 2+ hours typing up a response ...and my browser froze :|
sorry Suicufnoc, sigh

 

[sigh]

I like Ash Barrens a lot. It does wonders for this engine, as it can quickly reverse two problems this engine runs into:
1) not enough lands to both recur back and forth and develop mana with
2) too few red sources

Ash Barrens solves both of these issues by being a repeatable way to tutor more lands into your hand to both feed the engine and your manabase. VERY cool!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I love Ash Barrens, but I do wish it also had normal cycling

 

[psly4mne]

I love Ash Barrens, but I do wish it also had normal cycling

I agree. Also, Molten Vortex is decent, but I wish it also tapped for mana and drew you three cards when you cast it.

 

[sigh]

I agree. Also, Molten Vortex is decent, but I wish it also tapped for mana and drew you three cards when you cast it.

Molten vortex definitely isn't the best card out there, but it sure is powerful in the right support structure. Vortex could be replaced in the above scenario with basically any repeatable dicard outlet where you also want Loam, say, Daretti or Noose Constrictor. Barrens will still generally be able to power up the engine faster by directly adding basics to the equation.