General Stupid Judge Question Thread

[FlowerSunRain]

Its still functional, but because you can't assign more damage then is required to kill a single creature anymore it is even less useful then it was when it was printed (and make no mistake it was almost completely useless when it was printed).

 

[Chris Taylor]

But the defender orders blockers?

 

[Suicufnoc]

You ignore blocker order

 

[silasw]

you can't assign more damage then is required to kill a single creature anymore

Yes you can.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Are you sure?

If I attack with Woolly mammoths and you block with two grizzly bears, don't I have to assign 2 damage to bear A and 1 damage to grizzly bear B?

Or as that an exception specifically for trample, so it only applies if I control a snow-covered forest?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Are you sure?

If I attack with Woolly mammoths and you block with two grizzly bears, don't I have to assign 2 damage to bear A and 1 damage to grizzly bear B?

Or as that an exception specifically for trample, so it only applies if I control a snow-covered forest?

I think thats what happens if you don't have that stupid enchantment in play. If you do (As with banding IIRC) you can lump all 3 damage on one bear?

My actual question was about weather the attacker or blocker decides which bear dies in a normal circumstance, and google is telling me it's the attacking player (Thank god, last thing we need is to discourage attacking)

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I haven't actually read a magic rulebook since revised, so all my knowledge of the current Magic ruleset is based on what people have told me have changed since then.

But, yes, the attacker has always decided where damage is dealt. In older rule sets, you could assign all of War Mammoth's damage to bear A, delivering 1 trample damage while in the current rule set you can't do that. I assumed it was because you had to deal lethal damage to each creature first, but it may well be due to some change in how trample functions. Its pretty much moot, because the only time it would matter is if they double blocked with Hornet Nest can something else you could deal all the damage to the something else and avoid the tokens.

 

[Goldenpineapple]

Edit: I'm an idiot and thought trample did weird stuff to multiple blockers but it doesn't. I don't even know why I thought it did or why I quoted what I did here.

New text and rules for Defensive Formation:
Rather than the attacking player, you assign the combat damage of each creature attacking you. You can divide that creature's combat damage as you choose among any of the creatures blocking it.

• 10/4/2004: Damage assignment choices from Trample and other things which allow alternative damage assignments for attacking creatures are all made by you.
• 3/1/2010: With the exception of ignoring the damage assignment order, you follow all the normal rules for damage assignment.

Well the rules are:
Combat Damage Step:
510.1c: ...An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it.
Trample
702.19b: ...The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.

So it sounds like defensive formation lets you spread around the damage and not kill any of your stuff when you multiblock a trampling creature, but just let you "chump" with one guy while your gang murders the attacker on a non-trampler?

 

[Diakonov]

So it sounds like defensive formation lets you spread around the damage and not kill any of your stuff when you multiblock a trampling creature, but just let you "chump" with one guy while your gang murders the attacker on a non-trampler?

It appears that you can spread around the damage in either case. The key phrase being "With the exception of ignoring the damage assignment order..." meaning lethal damage does NOT need to be assigned in any case, trample or not. Two 3/3's can safely block and kill a vanilla or trampling 4/4.

The card basically could read "Creatures you control have banding when blocking."

 

[Laz]

The card basically could read "Creatures you control have banding when blocking."

Ah yes, helpful rules clarifications.

 

[Diakonov]

I haven't actually read a magic rulebook since revised, so all my knowledge of the current Magic ruleset is based on what people have told me have changed since then.

But, yes, the attacker has always decided where damage is dealt. In older rule sets, you could assign all of War Mammoth's damage to bear A, delivering 1 trample damage while in the current rule set you can't do that. I assumed it was because you had to deal lethal damage to each creature first, but it may well be due to some change in how trample functions. Its pretty much moot, because the only time it would matter is if they double blocked with Hornet Nest can something else you could deal all the damage to the something else and avoid the tokens.

Trample currently functions as (crudely) "if all blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, excess damage may be assigned to defending player." You could still assign more than 2 damage to a bear with a trampling mammoth, but then all 3 damage happens to the bear and none to the player.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Thanks for the clarification. I guess this card is slightly better because you could assign 7 damage from a Terra Stomper to a arbor elf and 1 damage to a deathrite shaman and not take any trample damage.

 

[Goldenpineapple]

Edit: I'm an idiot and thought trample did weird stuff to multiple blockers but it doesn't. I don't even know why I thought it did or why I quoted what I did there.

The key phrase being "With the exception of ignoring the damage assignment order..."

If the only exception is damage assignment order (the order creatures take damage in) that just means you can order them however you want. Non-trample rules say lethal has to be dealt to preceding creatures to reach anything else.
"...If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. ..."
You can re-order the blockers, and in combination with
"An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it."
You can dump all the damage onto one of your blockers, but cannot block a bear with two bears and say "each will take one damage" unless the blocked creature has trample.

Right?

 

[FlowerSunRain]

If the only exception is damage assignment order (the order creatures take damage in) that just means you can order them however you want. Non-trample rules say lethal has to be dealt to preceding creatures to reach anything else.
"...If two or more creatures are blocking it, it assigns its combat damage to those creatures according to the damage assignment order announced for it. This may allow the blocked creature to divide its combat damage. However, it can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless, when combat damage assignments are complete, each creature that precedes that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage. ..."
You can re-order the blockers, and in combination with
"An amount of damage that's greater than a creature's lethal damage may be assigned to it."
You can dump all the damage onto one of your blockers, but cannot block a bear with two bears and say "each will take one damage" unless the blocked creature has trample.

Right?

Oh, nevermind, I guess it can't do that. I'm pretty sure I've cheated dividing damage non-lethally to finish off multiple creatures with pestilence, earthquake or something like it.

 

[Laz]

I know that I have 'cheated' in the past with lethal damage assignment from Trampling Deathtouchers. Assuming that neither myself nor the opponent knowing how deathtouch damage assignment works counts as cheating.

 

[Diakonov]

702.21j During the combat damage step, if an attacking creature is being blocked by a creature with banding, or by both a [quality] creature with “bands with other [quality]” and another [quality] creature, the defending player (rather than the active player) chooses how the attacking creature’s damage is assigned. That player can divide that creature’s combat damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking it. This is an exception to the procedure described in rule 510.1c.

I am almost certain that this exception in procedure means completely replacing the usual combat damage assigning procedure, including blocking order. I would also assume that Defensive Formation is intended to work the same way as banding, and if not they are dicks.

Edit: I had to hunt a bit but here is a link.

http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/99288807264/explain-banding-now

 

[FlowerSunRain]

So the card really basically says "blocking creatures you control have banding" and "creatures your opponent control don't have trample if you block with more then one creature" (which is redundant, but non-intuitive)?

What was the motivation for the concept of "block order"? Making multiple blocks take less clicks on modo?

 

[Diakonov]

So the card really basically says "blocking creatures you control have banding" and "creatures your opponent control don't have trample if you block with more then one creature" (which is redundant, but non-intuitive)?

What was the motivation for the concept of "block order"? Making multiple blocks take less clicks on modo?

Even with one blocker you could choose to have their trampler assign it all to that one creature. A single soldier token could take an entire Terra Stomper hit.

I'm not sure why they created block order. Maybe infect would have been too good? I have no clue.

 

[DreamPaint]

What happens when you Song of the Dryads a Banishing Light? This came up on saturday and we were pretty divided on the layering rules.

 

[Diakonov]

What happens when you Song of the Dryads a Banishing Light? This came up on saturday and we were pretty divided on the layering rules.

I'm pretty sure nothing happens. It's not leaving the battlefield, so the "until" clause wouldn't occur. The real question is, when you disenchant the Song of the Dryads, does Banishing Light still remember what it exiled?

 

[Laz]

Doesn't Banishing Light become a colourless Forest? Banishing Light never left the battlefield, and now no longer has text to that effect, so the exiled permanent stays exiled. However, does subsequent destruction of the Banishing Light return it? I suspect not, and it certainly wouldn't come back with O. Ring.

 

[Diakonov]

I know that I have 'cheated' in the past with lethal damage assignment from Trampling Deathtouchers. Assuming that neither myself nor the opponent knowing how deathtouch damage assignment works counts as cheating.

I don't remember whether that would have been cheating before, but it definitely isn't now. In fact, it doesn't even need trample. An Acidic Slime can kill two hill giants if they both block.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Even with one blocker you could choose to have their trampler assign it all to that one creature. A single soldier token could take an entire Terra Stomper hit.

I'm not sure why they created block order. Maybe infect would have been too good? I have no clue.

Was it a 6e change or an M10 change?

 

[Suicufnoc]

Doesn't Banishing Light become a colourless Forest? Banishing Light never left the battlefield, and now no longer has text to that effect, so the exiled permanent stays exiled. However, does subsequent destruction of the Banishing Light return it? I suspect not, and it certainly wouldn't come back with O. Ring.

I believe it would still come back with Banishing Light. Banishing light is an abomination.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I believe it would still come back with Banishing Light. Banishing light is an abomination.

Banishing Light is much more intuitive than Oblivion Ring most of the time. Disenchant tricks to permanently remove stuff suck!

Anyway, when Banishing Light enters the battlefield, it sets up a delayed trigger. That delayed trigger won't go away if you enchant the Banishing Light with a Song of the Dryads, so the permanent will still come back if Banishing Light is destroyed after someone Stone Rains it. Unlike Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light doesn't have a separate trigger for when it dies, so it doesn't matter if it loses its textbox abilities.

PS. I say this with definite autority, but in fact I'm just pretty sure this is how it works.