The 'Draw-a-Card' cube

Laz

Developer
Current state: Mistakes of the first cut have been rectified. Lets call it 'Take two'.
Cube Tutor Link
The 'Draw-a-Card' cube aka. The Lucre-Cube

Inspired by Lucre's insistence that every card ever is better with Cycling, this cube aims to be filled to the brim with cards that can replace themselves. Cycling and Cantripping are the major focus, as well as a smaller focus upon enchantments.

Draft Primer:
6-player 264-card Cube (4 packs of 11) (i.e Use these settings on CubeTutor: Pack Size: 11 Packs: 4 Bots: 5)

The colour wheel looks like this:
   {W}
{G}   {U}
 {B}  {R}
Allied pairs in this are somewhat better supported (than enemy pairs).

The aim of this format is that if something looks like it can be drafted around, it probably can be.

Red and Blue's colour identities are shifted a little from their traditional roles.
{U}: Aggressive/tempo-oriented. Can supplement graveyard strategies a little. Less valuable for control, since other colours have plenty of card draw.
{R}: Control/midrange oriented. Can support aggressive strategies, but much of its burn cannot target players.

Players receive one of each coloured cycling land (i.e 1 Secluded Steppe, 1 Drifting Meadow, 1 Lonely Sandbar, 1 Remote Isle, etc), that can be added to their decks post-draft.

Rules questions that will come up:
Graveyard order: You know those ancient cards which care about the order of your graveyard? Well... (Don't rearrange your graveyard, and when multiple cards go to your yard at once (i.e a Wrath), you choose the order. Killing an enchanted creature puts the enchantments on top of the creature. You can exile cards from any position in your graveyard with Delve, but the remaining cards stay in the same relative order.)
Bestow: A creature with Bestow is an Aura (but not a creature) when cast, and when enchanting a creature, it is a creature the rest of the time. (Therefore triggers Prowess, but can't be searched for with Heliod's Pilgrim, etc)
Cycling: Cards the have an ability when cycled put the cycling ability onto the stack, then the triggered ability. This only matters for Krosan Tusker (the land search happens before drawing the card).
Madness: If a spell or effect causes you to discard a card with Madness, finish resolving the spell/effect before casting the card using the Madness cost. If you discard a card with Madness to pay a cost, the Madness spell is put onto the stack on top of the spell/ability for which that cost was paid (and will therefore resolve first).

There are lots of keywords that represent alternate costs/abilites from the hand. As normal, abilities can be activated at any time, where casting costs have timing restrictions. Abilities cannot be countered, cast cards can. A breakdown of the keywords is below:
Cast as a spell:
Bestow
Evoke

Activated as an ability:
Cycling
Reinforce

Triggered, then cast as a spell: (therefore a spell on the stack, but ignores normal spell timing restrictions):
Madness

Magic, not a confusing game at all.

This cube uses the same Colour wheel as RtR, {W}{U}{R}{B}{G}, and like that environment, the allied colours are supported, though there has been consideration of how these pairs bleed out in to the associated shard.

Colour pair identities:
WU - Heroic/Prowess
UR - Spells Matter
RB - Madness
BG - Cards in graveyard matter
GW - Enchantress

{W}{U} - Heroic/Prowess:
Heroic bleeds a little into Green, Prowess bleeds a little into Red. These comprise the main aggressive colours in the cube. There are not a lot of really strong incentive cards for these, rather a critical mass is required. These mechanics are intended to be supported by the large number of cantripping cards, allowing these to be chained together for Prowess, while targeting Heroic creatures.

{U}{R} - Spells Matter
This is probably more accurately a Red theme, since much of Blues contribution to spells-matter is Prowess.
Young Pyromancer and Guttersnipe are the poster children of this one.

{R}{B} - Madness
Madness doesn't really have the depth to be a fully fledged theme. Then again, neither does Spells Matter really. It simply has some incentive cards, then the supporting cards are ones that would have been played anyway. In this case, Red looting cards, and Black cards with discard activation costs. These enablers bleed both ways into Green and Blue.

{B}{G} - Cards in Yard matter
Cyclers and cantrips stock the graveyard effectively, giving mechanics like Threshold some legs. This theme takes two paths, a Green heavy one, which calls for cards to be in the yard, with big incentive cards such as Ghoultree, Grizzly Fate and Nemesis of Mortals. On the other hand, Black tends to want to take cards from the yard, either into exile via Delve, onto the battlefield via Reanimation or into hand via one of the many black pseudo card-draw effects.

{G}{W} - Enchantress
Not a large theme, in terms of incentives, but there is quite a volume of enchantments to support drafters who go in this direction. Eidolon of Blossoms and Kor Spiritdancer are the primary build-around cards, along with a few reward and support cards, such as Aura Gnarlid and Heliod's Pilgrim.

Additional design considerations:
A cycle of five build around cards, which are designed to play with off-colour themes and dramatically change card evaluation.


Creatures as spells. Since there is a focus upon having creatures in the graveyard in Green (for Ghoultree and the like), and they serve double duty in Black as reanimation/raise dead targets, many of the creatures in this cube act like spells. From the most overt, with Evoke, to less obvious examples like Hunting Moa, Ambush Viper and Fleshbag Marauder.

Inspired by Lucre's insistence that every card ever is better with Cycling, this cube aims to be filled to the brim with cards that can replace themselves. This allows players to rip through their deck, deploying an endless stream of threats, or digging for the perfect answer. As most cycling cards temper their potency with their flexibility, this will be, by necessity, a lower power environment, and due to the specific types of cards which are being focussed upon, a non-singleton one.

I am not sure what the implications of having a cube with such a high velocity will be, but at the minimum, I suspect that the following will eventuate:
- Players will hit land drops. This is even more likely if I include a wealth of landcyclers, or the Ravnica Bounce-lands.
- Graveyards will fill quickly.

Beyond that, I am not really sure what will happen, but these probably give me enough to work with to begin brainstorming.

Possible themes:
Slide/Lightning Rift - Stealing from Vintage Masters here. Not sure how many of these need to be included. I hope that Cycling will be useful enough that it will be drafted without the need for to too many incentive cards.
Prowess - Chaining together spells that cantrip sounds pretty good for this one
Use those cards in the graveyard - Delve, Threshold, more?

I hope that other ideas will surface, but I want to start laying out cards and see what inspires.

Since this is cube number 3 for me (Main cube here, Scuttle-mutt inspired cube here), I would like it to be reasonably constrained financially. Luckily, Grillo showed that this was possible in his excellent Penny-Pincher cube. That said, if I need to proxy a mana-base in order to make things work, I will do it.
 

Laz

Developer
I guess the easiest way to start is to lay out those interesting cards that do something when you cycle them:
White:
Decree of Justice is fantastic, and probably represents the power-ceiling of this cube. Renewed Faith is fine, but nothing to get too excited about. Resounding Silence is probably a fine power level for removal, and a few of the other 'when you cycle this card ...' cards hit somewhere near this level. Sunfire Balm seems really weak.

Blue:
Choking Tethers has potential, and maybe some sort of Blue based tempo-oriented archetype is something that I want to explore. I am quite certain that when I look for other blue cards with 'draw a card' printed on them I will get plenty of options with which I can supplement such a theme. Complicate is sweet, and despite though cycling being uncounterable is probably of a good level of power for counterspells here. Decree of Silence seems, not awesome. I think if I wanted a cycling counterspell, I would probably look for more Complicates. Then again, I did say players would hit their land drops, so 8 mana is not insurmountable, but then again, the masses of cheap spells with 'draw a card' printed on them that I am planning on running probably devalue it even more. Resounding Wave seems like a shoe-in if I go the Bounce-lands route. I like the tension that Grillo has with that in his cube, and wouldn't mind shamelessly replicating it.

Black:
Death Pulse, like the Red cards Slice and Dice, and Solar Blast gain a lot of value if there are plenty of 1-toughness creatures in the cube. That is definitely something to keep in mind. Decree of Pain seems really over-the-top with the 'draw a card for each creature' line. As a 5-6 mana wrath, that could be cycled to kill little things, I might be tempted, but 8 mana is so many mana. Dirge of Dread could be good if the cube develops into an environment with regular board-stalls. Given the lower power, this is possible, but the card is probably not making it at the moment. Resounding Scream seems... eh.

Red:
Decree seems interesting, but feels slightly too dependant upon Astral Slide to not just be annoying. Maybe Armageddon at {5}{R}{R} is something desirable? Resounding Thunder seems like a decent power level for removal. As mentioned for Death Pulse, Solar Blast and Slice and Dice require a reasonable number of 1-toughness creatures to be of high value, but Solar Blast is not so far from Resounding Thunder to be baseline power level for removal.

Green:
Maybe the creature pumps are good? I am not sure yet, but Krosan Tusker? Yes indeed. That is exactly where I want to be with cards that do-stuff when cycled.

Potential Soldier Stuffs?
There are a couple of cards which care about Soldiers. No idea if it is a theme worth pursuing, but if I leave it here, it certainly works to remind me to think about it.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Looks great. Here is a list of cycling cards I can give my seal of approval to from gameplay:



glassdust hulk is on my bench, and worth remembering if you start to up your artifact count or go splicer. Splicers look kind of unbeatable though with astral slide.

Delve cards, thought scour, and the skaabs, are nice non-poisonous graveyard interactions. Tortured existence is a solid build around. You can get a bit of a G/W or G/B ranimator deck going too with cycled fatties and white or black resurrection effects. Spider spawning might be a possible card (though prob not in a combo capacity). Kessig cagebreakers would also be really (maybe too?) strong here. There might be enough cycling for laboratory maniac?

Lim-Dul's vault is one of my pet cards, and I think it would be great here. Its a very skill testing card in general, and both the negative interaction with land cycles and the positive interaction with card draw cyclers looks interesting.

The cube should be good though. I run a mix of bouncelands, cantrips, and cyclers, and it really reduces the number of non-games you have. I would expect you to have a similar experience.

You really have a ton of creative space to explore though.

Edit: forget that there is a class of cards that are flexible, but also feed the graveyard: cheap things like briarhorn and ambush viper, which can act as early game removal but also stack the yard. Graveyard based decks love cards like that.

Also, transmute is kind of similar to cycling, but adds a more expensive tutoring element rather than straight card draw/land search.
 

Laz

Developer
Modin, Chris, I like the way you think!

Grillo, I have been following your cubes pretty closely, and so expect to see a few things reflected here. Evoke and Transmute are great suggestions though.

Dom, whenever I include miracles, I like to include ways to set them up. Simply because if you have to do work to set up the Miracle cost, it doesn't feel like so much of a blow out. I suspect the reason that I love Terminus so much is that it isn't a card you actually want to cast every time you miracle it, unlike say Bonfire, Entreat or Temporal Mastery. Then again, if the blow out is Banishing Stroke, I suspect it doesn't feel so bad. I am not sure if there will be a lot of deck-manipulation cantripping there will be in the end product, but definitely worth keeping in mind.

Stoic Champion is cool, and is a neat incentive card for cards which hopefully don't need too much of an incentive.
 
Laz, you and I seem to be in sync with developing cubes, but perhaps that's just an extension of closely following these forums. A lot of your ideas I've been developing in my updated cube, which you can take a look here for ideas:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/276

Or maybe you would rather wait and see how your ideas develop? :)

I think it might be useful to really try to articulate what you're trying to do. Is it the concept of cards that draw you more cards give you more options and keep the level of interactivity high? That is something I've been thinking about since conspiracy, with the parley cards. It's perhaps been solidified for me through Khans slow format and some of the work Grillo has been doing. If this is something you want to focus on as a design principle then perhaps consider



If you are just wanting to give players options then flashback becomes an acceptable design avenue too.

The players making land drops thing has been a strong focus in what I've been doing in order to avoid non games. And yes with more cards and cycling your graveyard is going to fill up more quickly and it's certainly a design opportunity to be exploited.

It might also be worth making a point here about cycling vs spells that have draw a card written on them. Unless the cycling card has a cycling triggers, such as krosan tusker they have quite a different role/impact. One gives you an effect and a card, the other just draws you deeper into your deck.

You're right about low power for the theme. I think you probably want flat power level as well. Say you have JTMS in here (for extreme example), you are likely to just try to cycle until you get your good card and win. Similarly you might want to be careful of I win two card combos.

I agree with all the suggestions people have listed above too, they're spot on.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That looks great Alfonzo, a lot of fun cards in there. :)

-----
I feel like I have to bring up the cycling lands as part of the discussion.



They don't have the color reward element of bouncelands, gain lands, or tri-lands, but they do provide a lot of cycling triggers. Are these essential to have for astral slide or lightning rift to be playable?
 
They are great cards but take up a lot of room in the main cube (ULD?). Will slow the format down as well, not such a bad thing though? Depends what you want.

That new drifting meadow art is lovely.

 

Laz

Developer
I was actually wondering if anyone had good ideas for the Cycling lands. They strike me as too weak to be worth picks on, but it seems unlikely that I take the ULD approach with this cube.

My top ideas at the moment are the following:
Put cycling lands in the basic lands box (They do have a non-negligible deck building cost...)
Give each player X of each cycling land.
Have cycling lands picks in the cube that give you X copies of that land (or possibly just Secluded Steppe AND Drifting Meadow)
 
For inspiration, this is my Cycling Highlander deck not EDH, but the more MTG like highlander. http://www.mtgvault.com/meltyman/decks/cycling-highlander/
EDIT: changed link because the former site is going down.

From there Fluctuator will find a home with the Slide and Rift, also Fluctuator is pretty funny with cycling creatures + Living Death mentioned above, but also things like: Twilight's Call, Tombstone Stairwell and Patriarch's Bidding, also Necromancer's Covenant !

One BOMB that dropped into my head from your post was Chasm Skulker, might be too good even?
 

Laz

Developer
This is a post that I started writing last night, but then I just ended up with a big list of interesting Blue cards and didn't have time to refine it into a format that was post-worthy before I had to run.

I alluded to a Blue-based tempo archetype in an earlier post, and a search on gatherer for 'draw a card' showed that there is some depth to this idea.

Lets start with some beaters. It seems fine to mostly focus on Prowess here, though other creatures will probably come along later.

These will obviously need to be complemented with creatures from other colours. Doubling down on Jeskai Sage, and still including Elder might be too much, but I just couldn't resist the line 'draw a card'.

The spells that work to push this archetype are all of the typical Unsummon/Twiddle + cards that blue gets all of the time.

My hope is that these cards mix up the traditional role of Blue in cube, moving it from being the typical late-game colour into an early/mid-game oriented one. I probably need to slow down some other colours in order to have Blue work this way, but I think it might be an interesting thing to try, and at this power-level, I have a lot of knobs to twist.
Squelch is also an option if I end up with the standard Fetch/Fetch/Dual/Shock mana-base, but I think that is unlikely.

There are a couple of multi-colour cards that support this theme as well (while having 'Draw a card' printed on them somewhere.


Also in my search, I came across this card:

I feel it has some potential as a build-around, though I am not completely sure how yet. Forcing your opponent to bounce lands while you bounce things for value seems fantastic, but I have no idea how to reliably manifest a situation like that. I remember it being a win-con in an obscure enchantress deck, but that was all sorts of infinite combos as opposed to being played for value.
 

Laz

Developer
Meltyman, Chasm Skulker is a great idea. I have it in Scuttle-cube, but didn't think of it here. Thanks for some of the black mass-reanimation suggestions as well, I am becoming very sold on that idea.

Alfonzo, I think you raise a lot of points worthy of discussion. Great post.
In answer to your first, and probably most pressing question, I am not completely sure what I am trying to do yet. In each of my other cube development threads, I have always had somewhere I want to go, with certain loose themes in mind (or, in the case of Scuttle, very strong well-defined themes). This idea has been rattling around my head for a while now, probably since CML posted the 'Draw a card' thread mid last year, but I never really started to lay it out or work out what the implications of it were until now. Hence, I am probably starting this thread far earlier in my thought process than is healthy if I want to maintain my 'strong and capable designer' cred on the internet.
At this stage of the design, I really just want to lay out cards which fit the concept, and see what jumps out at me as solid concepts. Maybe cycling isn't where I want to be, and Slide as an archetype is too forced and poisonous. I could to have started this thread with 'I laid out everything, this looked promising, here is what I came up with', but I feel by doing so, I am going to miss out on some of the fantastic input of others. Plus, there is nothing about this process which needs to be kept locked away, and so having it in the public domain costs me nothing.
So, I think that answers what I am trying to do, while completely avoiding the question of what I am trying to do 'with this cube'.
I feel that you actually described the key concept behind my thinking well in your own post, here:
Is it the concept of cards that draw you more cards give you more options and keep the level of interactivity high?
Yes, this. Almost exactly this. The reduction in mana-screw/flooded non-games seems to extend from this principle as well.
I actually first posted about this idea here, expressing something similar.

I keep having this strange idea for a cube that I term "The Lucre Cube aka. The 'draw-a-card' Cube". It works on the simple principle that as many cards as possible should cantrip or cycle, because having a full grip of options is awesome, then working out what how to use the dynamic that emerges when graveyards fill fast and players rip through their deck.
Aside: there were some good ideas there about Nemesis of Mortals and Ghoultree in there...

It might also be worth making a point here about cycling vs spells that have draw a card written on them. Unless the cycling card has a cycling triggers, such as krosan tusker they have quite a different role/impact. One gives you an effect and a card, the other just draws you deeper into your deck.
I am not convinced that this is strictly true, as a lot of the other posts here indicate. Cycling provides a way with which to stock your graveyard, only costing tempo, and this is an important factor in the case of creatures (and possibly lands, though I haven't considered implications of that yet). I understand what you are saying, but I think my point is that there is a way to build-your-own ways to make cycling cards have a bigger impact than just searching for the right card at the right time. You are completely right about the risk of just 'digging for your bomb' using cycling cards, but hopefully we can avoid that, since we don't have to print flashy rares into our boosters.
 

Laz

Developer


What do all of these cards have in common? They are exceptionally good at killing 1-toughness creatures. Since these are all cards which I would be pretty excited to play in this cube, I need to find a middle ground in which cards like this have value, but are not overbearing. As such, I need to be careful about including 1-toughness creatures in this cube.

At this stage, I think I will give some value to these cards through 1-toughness tokens. Cards like Chasm Skulker, Beetleback Chief and Young Pyromancer seem like a reasonable way to do this. Skulker has already been mentioned, Beetleback Chief is an awesome card with Astral Slide if I choose to go that route, and Pyromancer seems great if I am pushing prowess. They also work well to add value to these cards which kill 1-toughness creatures without turning them into massive blowouts.

Aside:
I was going to write something about how formats have critical toughness values, for instance in Lightning Bolt formats, it tends to be 4, but the current Theros/Khans standard breaks that theory wide open. (2 - Wild Slash, Magma Spray, Magma Jet; 3 - Lightning Strike; 4+ Valorous Stance)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This idea has been rattling around my head for a while now, probably since CML posted the 'Draw a card' thread mid last year, but I never really started to lay it out or work out what the implications of it were until now.

Thats really funny, that was what originally got me thinking along similar lines.

-------

Blue tempo is actually really easy to do at this power level. I know I haven't posted a list yet, but thats because cloud of faeries has been being used mostly as a mass mana engine. However, its also one of the reasons to go into a blue tempo deck, as its essentially a blue burning-tree emissary at this power level. Being blue, it is, of course, much better than that, as the ability to add a flying threat to your board while keeping up counters, bounce, or flash creatures allows you to actively disrupt your opponent's strategy. In addition, if you run ninjutsu creatures its a prime enabler, and is a reasonable clock in conjunction with equipment or auras.

I actually briefly had words of wind in the original list, as a way to enable combo when it was still singleton. I don't remember how I thought it would go infinte (maybe I just misread the card?) but it seems super clunky compared with what actually ended up happening. It could be a really strong ramp card though in conjunction with cloud of faeries. Still feels a bit narrow.

There are some other cards you can run that benefit from bouncelands. Chris posted a few of them in the pincher thread, but I keep on stumbling across more of them in draft (e.g. compulsive research), and its worth keeping in the back of your mind.

Some of the major decisions you'll eventually have to make is not only how you want your mana base to look--as cycling lands, bouncelands, and fetchlands all seem to offer a different format experience--but also whether you want to run cloud of faeries and snap.
 

Laz

Developer
Turns out there is a whole cycle of the 'Words of words-starting-with-w' cards.


While I was initially excited by the concept, it wasn't long before I realised that these just read 'Any time you could draw a card, you can draw a Grizzly Bears/Shock/Raven's Crime/Whitesun's Passage/almost Aether Tradewinds' I don't get overly excited about any of those cards, although the Johnny in me does wonder about how to use Tradewinds for value.

Overall, it doesn't seem worth it, I suspect the average card in this cube will be better than Grizzly Bears (albeit, a 1-mana one...).
 

Laz

Developer
Maybe going down the enchantress path for Green and White is sweet? I am not sure yet, though Eidolon of Blossoms seems to have worked out well for some others around here.

Lets go the more obvious route first.

Cycling gets creatures into the graveyard efficiently. Plenty of other posts in this thread have focussed upon what the implications of this are/could be. Lets look at the poster cards for this focus:

Plenty of other reward cards exist in this vein, for instance Nemesis of Mortals, the other Skaab creatures, Spider Spawning, etc, so it shouldn't be hard to find the density of effects needed to make this a thing.

Getting creatures into the yard efficiently can be accomplished by more than simply cycling, Evoke also works pretty well, and given the lower power level of this environment, we might be able to go beyond the normal Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw (Actually, looking at all of the Evoke creatures, there are plenty of very playable ones, including Reveillark and Briarhorn).
Spitebellows is a neat removal spell, and Walker of the Grove seems cool as big reanimate-able value dork.
Offalsnout may also prove to have some utility fighting against this theme.

Meadowboon could team up with Sigil of the Nayan Gods to reward 'go-wide', but that is pretty low down my priority list. I would probably rather look at the Enchantress theme mentioned above first.

Wispmare and Ingot Chewer as also worth keeping in mind if I need those effects.

Thanks to Grillo, Tortured Existence is going straight in (I once brainstormed a Pauper deck with this as a key utility piece, and then promptly forgot the card existed).

Exhume, as mentioned by Modin, seems pretty fair if I don't provide strong discard outlets. That said an early Eternal Dragon or Krosan Tusker could still be pretty obnoxious. Then again, your opponent can cycle in response... Unearthing a Skaab Ruinator seems pretty obnoxious, but very awesome. There is definitely a lot of play to this idea, and I think I will be reading back through Grillo's Innistrad cube for hidden gems.
 

Laz

Developer
Looking at what I want Black to do with the graveyard while working in the spirit of keeping hands flush and providing a wide range of options leads me to focus upon these cards:


Then there are those cards which really benefit from being able to stock the graveyard easily:


Muckdraggers is really here because it effectively says 'draw a card'. The other Delve cards are of course all being kept in mind, and will likely feature prominently.


There is also this guy, who seems awesome with plentiful cycling.
 
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