The Penny Pincher Cube (360)

James Stevenson

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
No Tidehollow Sculler or Lingering Souls? Disruption/weenies has been a fairly common way to go with BW, but actually I'm not sure that it really works.

The best GR card in my cube has been Kessig Wolf-Run. I'm not into Zhur-Taa Swine (what does that even mean?), maybe Fanatic of Xenagos or Bloodbraid Elf? My GR has always been about aggro, nowadays it's +1/+1 counter aggro.

Anyway I guess my suggestions are too expensive, and honestly they're pretty conventional. Run some cool stuff I've never heard of, that would be better.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So, after getting a lot of feedback. I have a few solutions I am experimenting with.

One of the drafters pointed out that the attraction of R/G is being able to combine green ramp with red mana sinks (X burn spells), so I decided to come up with a package that would cater to that. My red section was too low curve, with no real avenue for a midrange deck, which was part of the problem. I also wanted to tie red in with the +1 +1 counters going on in green. The problem was that red has been largely passed over in this regard, missing out on the good heroic cards from theros, and missing out on Outlast in KTK. This leaves me with a squad of efficent but boring unleash and bloodthirst guys.

So I am experimenting with red hydras. Really.

They come with +1 +1 counters, act as mana sinks, work well with ramp, and can grow big enough to survive red's damage based sweepers. The Red variety even have the interesting ability to sacrifice counters in order to ping, providing a source of board control. This feels crazy.

Sadly, WOTC has decided that hydras must be green, so my options are limited. I am trying out these:



Spitting hydra also works well with the blink effects. I kind of doubt this is enough to rise R/G to a position of prominance, but thats ok, i'm just looking to raise its profile a little bit.

Here is a sample deck I tossed together:

R/G/w ramp from CubeTutor.com












B/W is going to be more difficult. The color combination just dosen't matchup quite right. The reanimation plan is limited by access to fatties in those colors and there really aren't discard outlets. Black also dosen't really support whites aggro plan very well. I added in triad and blind hunter, but black is a bit at the low end of the power spectrum in terms of providing strong blink targets, and is getting beaten out by blue and green. Red offers a plethora of artifact sensative interactions that mix well with white's splicers.
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

Can you experiment more with cheaper, money wise, black disruption? You mentioned you don't have as much disruption as you maybe could've have, so hand disruption and graveyard hate as more of a feature? Also, are you running just red hydras or as you including any other red mana sinks? Are cards like fireball out of the question? Feels like it could be a liability with the big-mana plays of the bounceland interactions but it's also something that at least I would feel rewarded for pairing together during a draft. Powerful things are fun, where broken things are not, so I suppose it depends on where on that spectrum it falls.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I have two rolling thunders that are taking that big X spell role (though I suppose I could turn one of them into a fireball and don't need to break singleton there). The guy I was talking with about the R/G draft started off with a copy of rolling thunder, with the intent of going R/G ramp.

I would be open to more mana sinks though in red. Cutting rock hydra for something else seems reasonable, I'm just not sure what. I just love rock's hydra's flavor...

Ring is actually a good idea, and goes well with the fires of yavimaya that I snuck in (also cut a pelakka wurm for a saproling burst). I think I would need more midrange red beef though. Ashling always seems to result in these weird board states for me, so I think I actually like the more tame molten hydra (which I think will actually play very well).

As far as expanding the black disruption package, I don't really know. Specifically, when I brought it up before, I was referencing how difficult it was to disrupt those sorts of cloud of faeries based combos. The reason is that those decks are already running archaeomancers to get back ghostly flicker if something happens on that end, and also can easily run white or black raise dead effects to get back cloud of faeries if something happens on that end. You can even blow up most of their bouncelands, and they can still use familiars to eek out enough of a mana advantage to kill you. I would really need to power up my disruptive package, if I wanted to encourage that part of the cube, but that would really change the texture and feel of it. I do think there exists the potential to take this cubes shell and revamp it into a combo focused format.

Generally, I think disruptive decks have to hit a pressure point of the format. The blue bounce spells do a nice job upsetting bouncelands (while not being poisonous), and the black equivalent would be terrible stuff like mana skimmer and mana leech. Cheap discard or land destruction creates negative variance, which I am not interested in. Tainted Well is probably the least invasive choice, but any disruptive piece I would add seems to fit better in a UB shell.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Alfonzo Bonzo said:
What do you mean actually a good idea? :)
Click to expand...

:p

Pontiff looks good, I'll add it to the short list for when I am trying to decide how to make B/W more appealing.

I think it has to strategically tap into:

1. blink
2. artifacts
3. tokens

Something of a midrange deck, using recursion to grind itself to a game winning spot.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ok, just to order some things. I have B/W in a place where I am happy: I ended up going with Eric's paylife control archetype, mixed in with some blink and token strategies. G/R I don't think there is much I can do, and I ended up undoing much of the changes that I had made. It will just be the one color combination that comes out less to play.

I ended up adding atog to the cube, and any concerns I had that he would be too narrow were quickly proven incorrect, when a blinded with anger atog smacked his owner in the face for 34 points of damage. The only actual change to red that ended up sticking was atog. Threaten and empty the warrens have returned (jumping in and out for a variety of proposed changes: aladdin, molten hydra, and spitting hydra), as did 2nd sunscape familiar (jeskai barricade being the proposed change).

Anyways, here is the complete list of in/out, listed mostly for my own record keeping:

Out




In




I am pretty happy with where the format is right now, and don't anticipate any other major changes, accept for perhaps cutting ghostly flicker and adding the third cloud of faeries back in.
 
Jonas

Jonas

I second Ashling, I love that card. I tried thrashing wumpus without really having a theme where it fit in and it didn't do well, surprise surprise. I'll be happy if you get it to work.
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

I have been drafting some on CT with the newer edits, and almost all of the decks seem reasonable and fun! Though without human minds (and only the dumb CT bots), I have felt like there are too many lands. Maybe it really is just a bot thing, but I never prioritized taking mana-fixing lands and always found a few on the lap (even if they were just off-color bouncelands that I used to play 16 lands). I think this derives from the bots not taking bouncelands highly enough (if they shared even one color combination) and the sheer multitude of color-pair lands. It seems like for the gainlands, most should go uncontested in a typical draft (unless there is a lot of splashing or two players are in the same color pair). I wish there were something better than Vivids/Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wilds[/c], but I really think the cube's drafting experience would benefit from taking some color-pair lands and making them easier to fight over. Thoughts?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
First, wanted to thank everyone for doing drafts and making suggestions. The format really is better than it was before, and its reached a very healthy, though there are some imperfections. I ended up adding that wumpus, Alfonso, and I think it looks promising.

Chris, thats a really interesting post, and looking over the draft data I was having similar thought. I think you are correct about the bots not valuing cards correctly, nor are some of the drafters. Part of this comes from not playing the decks, but a lot of people seem to be being very conservative with their mana bases.

That being said, I think I might be ok with toying with the mana base. The original reason why I wanted 20 bouncelands, was because I wanted to really empower the familiar combo deck. Since the cube dosen't have the disruption suite to keep that deck in check, I could probably cut on lands in some spots. There are some benefits to doing so: one of the problems I have been having with designing for gruul, is that one of gruul's roles is as a ramp color. However, with 20 bounces, essentially any color can ramp, and that takes away a lot of Gruul's uniquness. I could also justify running the 3rd cloud of faeries again.

I'm just not really sure how a redesigned mana base would look. I could possibly cut 10 bouncelands, and I could certainly cut 10 gainlands. Maybe I could run something terrible (but awesome) like the mirage fetches :cool: Its also possible that cutting 10 gainlands for 10 scry lands is correct, or just cutting 20 gainlands for 10 scry lands and finding something else to do with those 10 slots.

I don't think its a critical change to make, but its an interesting idea to think about.
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

Grillo_Parlante said:
I'm just not really sure how a redesigned mana base would look. I could possibly cut 10 bouncelands, and I could certainly cut 10 gainlands. Maybe I could run something terrible (but awesome) like the mirage fetches :cool: Its also possible that cutting 10 gainlands for 10 scry lands is correct, or just cutting 20 gainlands for 10 scry lands and finding something else to do with those 10 slots.
Click to expand...

I must've been tired last night to forget to ask this question: what about 10 trilands over 20 gainlands? Yes, I am obsessed with "modal duals" :eek:, but after a draft or two, players might draft them as such!

You are probably right to keep the 20 bouncelands. With a few drafts, a player should learn that one-color matching makes them a great inclusion in most decks. Assuming 8 drafters value them accordingly, decks should cap out around 4, with most having only 1-2 (unless drafters really prioritize drafting 'em).
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I don't think I'll add them to the offical list at this point, but I think I will test them in a draft eventually. It sounds really appealing, in the sense that it creates another way to approach fixing. My concern is that it could make fixing less of a choice, and more of an easy solution to avoid the fixing puzzle. Still, having some (smaller) number of higher quality fixers does change the valuation mechanics in a way where you have to be more aggressive with your picks.

Edit: Pursuant to a conversation involving your B/W deck. Did you feel that B/W is a bit too 4 drop heavy?
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

Grillo_Parlante said:
Pursuant to a conversation involving your B/W deck. Did you feel that B/W is a bit too 4 drop heavy?
Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing this up! I never see CT comments :(

4c "Orzhov" Control from CubeTutor.com












As mentioned in the comment I *just* posted, I should've probably cut Swarm and maybe Salvagers for 1-2 of Master's Call/Painsmith (with the idea to use them as card disadvantage or trading them off to buy time/board position). Black (and black multicolored cards) seem to have a glut of playable (in any value/control deck) cards, and many of them can probably be changed to other areas of the curve while maintaining a similar effect. White is probably fine, though, with only the 6 mono-white 4s, but you could swap a Fetters for similar style removal.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Maybe turn one of the fetters into an exile? I kind of want a source of lifegain/removal for those B/W decks.

Making cuts to that deck is hard though. I don't think I could cut the salvagers though:

Salvagers + sphere: draw engine
Salvagers + Codex Shredder: recur removal

Between that and triad blinking splicers/marshflitter/rager, you have some serious inevitability in the late game.
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

Depending on the speed of the format, the swarm, salvagers and codex shredder *could* start in the SB. I have no idea how much of turn 1-3 is spent under aggression (but seeing some of my other decks, I could see a pretty brutal early game followed by turn 4-6 reactive protection of threats).
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So, prompted by a question from Alfonso in one of his drafts about lands:

This looks cool. Lands are hard here, how many bouncelands. This draft was flooded with non basics, too many?
Click to expand...

I took a look at the draft details and examined the bottom picks.

19 out of the 50 cards listed there came from the lands section: 9/20 bounce, 7/20 gain lands, and 3/10 utility lands. That seems disproportionality high, and it may be that since the cube offers fixing solutions in other ways, that I don't need to provide as many dual lands.

Which opens up an interesting door to cutting 10 gains (eventually replacing the other 10 with scry lands). But what to replace them with? Well, since I (presumably) have more room in my land section due to the entire weight of fixing not being placed upon it, I could up the number of utility lands I run, essentially given me the benefits of the ULD without having to have an actual ULD.

The alternative explanations are that this is just a bot thing, or that there is just natural variance in the drafts due to there not being print runs, and alfonso just got a particularly land heavy draft.
 
Chriskool

Chriskool

Grillo_Parlante said:
The alternative explanations are that this is just a bot thing, or that there is just natural variance in the drafts due to there not being print runs, and alfonso just got a particularly land heavy draft.
Click to expand...

I always CT draft w/ 7 bots + 15-card packs. Am I doing it wrong? (If not, then each draft should have all of the 50 lands.)

Also, I have been thinking a lot about UW auras/heroic and am going to try out this as a card for creature decks:



RE: targeting: In my experience, Eel Umbra doesn't protect against enough, and I am scared that Alexi's Cloak is either too much of a blowout OR the always-permanent shroud makes it not conducive to the strategy (hence Mystic Veil suggestion). Feeling of Dread, Shadow Rift, Distortion Strike, Mizzium Skin and Ordeal of Thassa are additional targeting cards to consider for aggressive mindsets. Lastly, I am also trying out Triton Fortune Hunter, Hopeful Eidolon, Leafcrown Dryad (really, any 3-to-4-mana bestow) and Thassa's Emissary to make heroic a little more attractive (albeit slower) by giving it ways to recoup potential card disadvantage attached to auras.

Currently, this cube has no blue, noncreature cards that support the heroic mechanic (despite 2 Battlewise Hoplites). There are some prowess and ninjitsu creaturess to support the aggressive UW mentality (along with blue bounce), but the buff/protection spells do not seem present in any quantity. I have seen Hoplite included in some 3c aura decks, but never a UW build. So despite all of the ideas above, this begs the question: does Battlewise Hoplite belong in the first place?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
No, you're right. I never do 8 mans in real life, and just wasn't thinking that on cube tutor it would have the full 360. That helps narrow things down a bit.

I really like the battlewise hoplites, because they provide card filtering to an aggressive deck. One of them probably should be cut though for a glassdusk hulk.

I would probably be more interested in just increasing the number of heroic enablers, since I've noticed in draft that sometimes they feel a bit scarce if you aren't in green as well as white. Jeskai elder and mistfire adept are both cutable, and were just added to fill the void after the purge. In addition to the cards you mentioned, there are a few new cards from dragons of tarkir that seem worth considering:




There is also triton tactics. I really don't like the idea of slowing heroic down (just seems boring to me), though leafcrown dryad I kind of like, because of the reach. Hopeful Eidolon has some carry over with the B/W life trade deck, but the thing I don't like about that card is I don't think you would ever be using the 1 mana mode. There is also already a really strong U/W midrange deck to consider, which I am sure will steal as many of these tools as they can. I really don't think heroic needs to be pushed too much, maybe 1-2 more spells in blue, maybe 1 more spell in red.

I will have to give some thought to it, but I think I like glint and triton tactics the best? Glint because its much more of a conditional counterspell and disruptive combat trick, and the same for triton tactics (though clearly less of a counter). I just want the blue aggro decks to feel disruptive.

Edit:

Plus, if you run hoplite, you get sweet decks like this, whose "reach plan" is to draw their library and then mill you to death :)

U/W Flicker Tempo-Combo from CubeTutor.com









 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top