What's an example of a superramp control deck in a regular riptide cube?
Card/Deck The Simic Combine
- Thread starter Tzenmoroth
- Start date
You are probably correct, but it does feel a little dismissive. It would be interesting to consider what a 'top of the library' matters theme might look like, and you could be right in that it's too broad and scattered a theme. I think there probably isn't enough pay off though. Is there something here?:
WARNING: power levels may vary
WARNING: power levels may vary
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Alfonso posted a control-ramp list on page one. Thats pretty much what I am expecting: there has to be a kiora somewhere.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
There are a few cards there that really interest me:
I have a lower power bias though >.>
Oracle is a really good value creature for a ramp-control deck, and sometimes it feels like a low power silvergill adept or abbot of keral keep. Momir vig I wanted to run in the penny cube, but didn't want to spend the money on him. Channelers and sphinx are more midrange cards, but have a lot of cool interactions in blue or green TOL manipulation.
I guess you would want to start with a U/G midrange shell? The advantage being that it draws better over the course of the game and can play a more multi-faced gameplan? I'm imagaining kind of a "big tempo" deck.
I have a lower power bias though >.>
Oracle is a really good value creature for a ramp-control deck, and sometimes it feels like a low power silvergill adept or abbot of keral keep. Momir vig I wanted to run in the penny cube, but didn't want to spend the money on him. Channelers and sphinx are more midrange cards, but have a lot of cool interactions in blue or green TOL manipulation.
I guess you would want to start with a U/G midrange shell? The advantage being that it draws better over the course of the game and can play a more multi-faced gameplan? I'm imagaining kind of a "big tempo" deck.
I think a top-deck theme is totally doable, especially in a Riptide-style cube, but IMO you want to add support for it in Red and Black with stuff like The Good Abbot and The Bad Abbot. And Bob, and Chandra Pyromaster, and so on.
Effects like Manifest, Scry, Dredge, Grisly Salvage, and so on help subtly reinforce it too.
Effects like Manifest, Scry, Dredge, Grisly Salvage, and so on help subtly reinforce it too.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Okay, so you've got a bunch of cards that say "top of the library" on them
What are you doing with those cards? Is putting in work to make bob painless really worth it?
What are you doing with those cards? Is putting in work to make bob painless really worth it?
The thing about the TOL theme is it's not nearly as in-your-face as, say, Eidolon of Blossoms or Birthing Pod. Every deck naturally wants better card selection; effects that manipulate or utilize the TOL are generally already quite good.
But when, in cube architecture and deckbuilding, you combine effects that use the top, like Courser and Abbot and Bob, with effects that manipulate the top, like Brainstorm and Magma Jet and Sylvan Library, they make each other better. That's really all there is to it—I wouldn't exactly call it "putting in work" when many of the on-theme cards are already quite good on their own.
However, given that you're designing your cube with those effects in mind, you start to take a second look at stuff like Conundrum Sphinx, because she becomes better in an environment with a high density of the aforementioned effects.
But when, in cube architecture and deckbuilding, you combine effects that use the top, like Courser and Abbot and Bob, with effects that manipulate the top, like Brainstorm and Magma Jet and Sylvan Library, they make each other better. That's really all there is to it—I wouldn't exactly call it "putting in work" when many of the on-theme cards are already quite good on their own.
However, given that you're designing your cube with those effects in mind, you start to take a second look at stuff like Conundrum Sphinx, because she becomes better in an environment with a high density of the aforementioned effects.
The payoff for being in the UG TOL deck is that you get to generate card advantage much more efficiently than other decks do. I think I'll be gutting my blue section of straight card draw spells (Sorry Cruise...) to keep UB/UR control decks in check and make room for UG TOL. Anyway, this is basically what I have, probably not including everything:
The engines
The one shots
The shuffles
The main payoffs
The sort of payoffs
Results will come in the next few weeks.
The engines
The one shots
The shuffles
The main payoffs
The sort of payoffs
Results will come in the next few weeks.
Maybe the TOL interactions can be part of supporting a big control ramp deck.
Other than CoCo, Gamekeeper, Mul Daya Chandlers, I honestly don't see much of a "TOL Simic theme" aside from "TOL is cool to mess with", which has implications across all the colours and is already an easy, fun thing to push in cube. It's certainly a cool thing to try to mess with (TOL stuff) and I'm not denying that or arguing against it, but as an explicitly unique UG theme, I don't really see much that is tying it together any differently than the UG superramp/control decks Grillo has already been preaching for UG (and which I heartily endorse).
Players draft blue and green for many of the same reasons and that doesn't just affect drafting it messes with design on our level and wizards level. They draft it to enable their more ambitious decks and provide tempo positive cards to their less ambitious decks. No wonder they don't make a good pairing while every other player is pilfering them to make their deck work. If only there were more abbots of whatever keep around.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Its also awkwardly placed for a lot of ripetide cubes. Simic is legit great in a low power format with bounces, and feels exhilararting to play as a formats sort-of-tron deck. At higher power you can run a bunch of green etb monsters with blue disruption and have a "smart monsters" deck. Stuff like using a bop to ramp out a wolfir silverheart in the same deck you are running mystic snake and daze in, for a cross between a tempo plan and a midrange plan. The green cards just go over the top while providing extra spell effects, and the blue cards help the deck sift its hands, protect its board presence, and disrupt the oppos board presence.
I'm kind of surprised though this is an issue for so many people, honestly: usually the guilds I struggle with are orzhov and gruul.
I'm kind of surprised though this is an issue for so many people, honestly: usually the guilds I struggle with are orzhov and gruul.
How do we facilitate these decks getting drafted though? I mean, its fine if they just come together once or twice by themselves but it's nice to know be able to help the format feel more defined. For instance, how would UG ramp get helped by more good ramp targets in blue? Having big 6+ fatties (I guess both spells and creatures) in blue and green but less so in other colors?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I would think the gold cards.
I always thought the deck came together rather naturally, as blue cantrips and card draw provide a solution, or at least mitigating factor, for late game mana dork or ramp draws (also, this is where the tol manipulation is valuable). Is it more an issue that the color pairing feels shallow? I could see that being an issue once you leave low power environs.
I always thought the deck came together rather naturally, as blue cantrips and card draw provide a solution, or at least mitigating factor, for late game mana dork or ramp draws (also, this is where the tol manipulation is valuable). Is it more an issue that the color pairing feels shallow? I could see that being an issue once you leave low power environs.
I think part of the problem with the simic gold cards is that in general they don't shout a particular theme, they're quite subtle really (though of course willing to be proven wrong). Though of course, the Kiora's generally say 'ramp', so whatevs. There tends to be quite a lot of generic good stuff which doesn't help point you in a direction, or doesn't feel cohesive in ways that other combinations do.
I think if you have enough cards that say 'i care about the tol' then you're more inclined to look for cards that help you manipulate it. How do people feel about telling time in a lower powered environment?
Would agree with having issues with gruul, orzhov doesn't really seem to be a problem for me, it's attrition sacrifice/aggro.
I think if you have enough cards that say 'i care about the tol' then you're more inclined to look for cards that help you manipulate it. How do people feel about telling time in a lower powered environment?
Would agree with having issues with gruul, orzhov doesn't really seem to be a problem for me, it's attrition sacrifice/aggro.
Part of the issue could be that blue and green are the only colors without permanent, efficient removal. In order for a Simic aggro plan to work, you must take advantage of tempo options, which is a fairly specific game plan. In general, slower archetypes rely on removal to last into the late game, so a Simic ramp deck needs to make up for that with strong ramp targets and/or solid midrange creatures, which again is a somewhat specific game plan. I think this leads to people being hesitant to draft Simic since it can be a bit difficult to switch gears to something else if necessary.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Control magic yes, fights no. fight cards don't work when you're losing or developing, only when you're winning or even. I'd also be loathe to resign a colors only removal to Bone Splinters variants that require the creature in question to be big or have deathtouch. It's a big ask. Epic confrontation is a decent idea, but it's still nowhere near doom blade level.
Having a color pair without removal spells does make people nervous, and even if you add in some decent removal spells in blue like control magic and it's ilk, people are probably just going to play blue white with those same cards instead, and have more of it.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I like telling time, but you kind of need to be in a spot where ponder or preordain are too good to run it imo.
Cheap bounce seems like really good interaction when you have ramped out monsters backed up by soft counters. I can see what you guys mean though when you say there isn't a lot to scream to players to combine the two.
Cheap bounce seems like really good interaction when you have ramped out monsters backed up by soft counters. I can see what you guys mean though when you say there isn't a lot to scream to players to combine the two.
Laz
Developer
Looks like that was left out of the original draft. Eric, can I add that as an action item on you?
Sorry all,not addressing any concerns, just had a weird thought. UG is the worlds leader in splashing so fuck it right? Ribbons of night has been a card I've been recommending to low powered cubes for ages but god does it seem to work with the green guy willing to go deep enough to work with black and green.
So the takeaway from this post is probably to take all the blazes and arc lightnings you can in a ug shell because well they win games against me as well as anyone else and by god fixing should be good by now.
So the takeaway from this post is probably to take all the blazes and arc lightnings you can in a ug shell because well they win games against me as well as anyone else and by god fixing should be good by now.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Ribbons of Night is the bee's knees! (Except for the flavor text... Unh...)
