Card/Deck Vamps

CML

Contributor
the names for lands have long followed the slothful and facile practice "adjective of one color" "noun of another." Here are some ideas for the new fetches. their edgy names exemplify how you lose a life when you activate them.

Ethereal Skerry
Intellectual Shithole
Black Rage Carnarium
Infuriated Copse
Arboreal Flatland

as for other stuff: gerry didn't put any thought into the initial reply and i know this because it's the exact same stuff i hear from wizards employees whenever i try to engage them, but he did put some thought into the next reply, and i think it's fine to call the first response what it is without any personal animus, because, after all, he is saying these things to make money;

you can argue that doing some kind of custom cube on modo would not maximize profits, but then again neither does nickel-and-diming people with a god-awful cost-cutting product;

and people here bat an eye at new cards but generally either stop bitching because they like casting spells and having black aggro etc. or either just don't like Cube because of an ingrained attitude, and the difficulty in getting people to Cube here is mainly because there are other events all the time.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
The one that always gets me is that "Breaking singleton means you don't go digging on gatherer, looking for hidden gems"

I've been looking mate! I looked through literally 100% of blue cards, and I found their 2 drops lacking.
 
Okay, I'll put this in mathematical terms. Imagine you have some multidimensional function that you want to optimize. If you highly constrain your parameters, you are likely not to capture the true maximum. If you leave your parameters unconstrained, you should be able to find the maximum anyways (but, practically, it will take longer).

This is essentially what I was trying to say, but I like the way you've described it. People would rather be proud and claim they've found the maximum within the constrained parameters than admit that a greater maximum exists. Once unconstrained, it will be more obvious to the outside observer that you have not yet optimized your function (and in fact might be far from optimized) and this makes their design ego vulnerable. It is too great a cost for some to become objectively closer to the true maximum.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
This is essentially what I was trying to say, but I like the way you've described it. People would rather be proud and claim they've found the maximum within the constrained parameters than admit that a greater maximum exists. Once unconstrained, it will be more obvious to the outside observer that you have not yet optimized your function (and in fact might be far from optimized) and this makes their design ego vulnerable. It is too great a cost for some to become objectively closer to the true maximum.

Man, people seem waaaaaay too concerned with having the "perfect" cube
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I get depressed when my cube fails me. I hate wasting my friends' time. I hate playing non-games. I actually have felt really bad when oppressive decks come out and demolish my "cool theme" decks. I feel like I have lied to and betrayed my players. I know my cube is based on my decisions so I'm the only one to blame for its faults. I want a perfect cube where that shit doesn't ever happen, where every promise is kept, where every player is as happy as one can expect to be from playing Magic. Anything less and I feel like a failure as a person.

But, you know, I have no ulterior motive for working on this, so what's the point to striving towards anything other then perfection? What's the point of a passion project if you aren't passionate? If all you want is an acceptable cube, just copy one, don't delude yourself into thinking that slamming together a list by scavenger hunting according to a predetermined standard is design.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I get depressed when my cube fails me. I hate wasting my friends' time. I hate playing non-games. I actually have felt really bad when oppressive decks come out and demolish my "cool theme" decks. I feel like I have lied to and betrayed my players. I know my cube is based on my decisions so I'm the only one to blame for its faults. I want a perfect cube where that shit doesn't ever happen, where every promise is kept, where every player is as happy as one can expect to be from playing Magic. Anything less and I feel like a failure as a person.

But, you know, I have no ulterior motive for working on this, so what's the point to striving towards anything other then perfection? What's the point of a passion project if you aren't passionate? If all you want is an acceptable cube, just copy one, don't delude yourself into thinking that slamming together a list by scavenger hunting according to a predetermined standard is design.

I see what you mean. I think the different between that attitude and the one I was thinking of is you aren't scared to go make changes because it might make the cube "worse"
I get a bad feeling in my gut when non-games happen too, but I'm not unwilling to try new white 4 drops or whatever for fear my design goals might be broken
 
Working towards perfection is a reasonable goal, and that should be the goal, but artificially putting up constraints to "get there faster" seems like cheating to me.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Some people are just perfectly content to outsource blame onto outside factors for their failures. As if the decision to implement those outside factors wasn't theirs. As if a 100% customizable format has "inherent flaws" that can be used to justify inadequacies.

I'm not sure if I'm jealous of people who can do that or not. They are probably generally happier people than I am.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Even then though, fun is a notoriously hard thing to quantify. And that's kinda what I want to do with my cube: Have Fun

with that goal in mind I'm not sure perfection is a reasonable goal, nor a helpful one, given the differences in what people love about magic and such
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
Re: That thing CML posted, what GT said, and the reply you gave him:
It's a shame about your facebook replies, C, because your original article is reasonable, his reply is not, but your counter-reply is back to normal, angry, unlikeable CML-speak. He calls you out for being childish and unable to "engage in meaningful discussion", and you hit him back with exactly what he's talking about. I get that your points are good points and, given that, you can express them how you want, but people aren't gunna listen to you like this. It seems more important to you to make people angry and then say "look he's angry" than to get people to accept your ideas.
Then again, you always portray Wizards as being unable to accept other ideas, so maybe your mission is to call attention to this really loudly, rather than try to discuss things with them.
Maybe a lot of people won't break singleton because it's an idea associated with us. Probably not, I don't think we're well known enough yet.
 
"You should go to riptidelab, people there seem to like to experiment" is something I've seen on the internet. Might be riptiders posting it though.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
"You should go to riptidelab, people there seem to like to experiment" is something I've seen on the internet. Might be riptiders posting it though.

Have you seen it on MTGS posted by someone named [TJS]Dandy_Lions? :p Because I've seen you there!
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I think he's referring more to the recent comments on the /r/mtgcube subreddit, where it seems we have a somewhat positive reputation. They don't hate us over there!
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
tumblr_lhz0e9iy071qanahpo1_500.gif
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I have seen you there as well, but I haven't been there for a while. And yes, it was the reddit posts that I had in mind ;)

I usually check back every spoiler season just to get some more opinions. Plus sometimes I am actually contemplating pure power level when deciding to add a card, and MTGS is usually a decent place to outsource that discussion to, if nothing else
 

CML

Contributor
Re: That thing CML posted, what GT said, and the reply you gave him:
It's a shame about your facebook replies, C, because your original article is reasonable, his reply is not, but your counter-reply is back to normal, angry, unlikeable CML-speak. He calls you out for being childish and unable to "engage in meaningful discussion", and you hit him back with exactly what he's talking about. I get that your points are good points and, given that, you can express them how you want, but people aren't gunna listen to you like this. It seems more important to you to make people angry and then say "look he's angry" than to get people to accept your ideas.
Then again, you always portray Wizards as being unable to accept other ideas, so maybe your mission is to call attention to this really loudly, rather than try to discuss things with them.
Maybe a lot of people won't break singleton because it's an idea associated with us. Probably not, I don't think we're well known enough yet.


yeah, you're right, but the response to the first post proves people will not listen anyway and that there is to be no meaningful discussion. i could write something more measured as a reply to that, kinda wish i had, but if the definition of "meaningful discussion" involves not addressing anything then it's just as hopeless as trying to talk to people on MTS.

can we stop beating around the bush and just accept that gerry holds these opinions, or (if i'm being charitable) pretends to do so, because he wants to make money from magic? i don't really want to talk too much about that topic any more because magic is beautiful and endlessly compelling and magic culture, and the people who comprise it, are simplistic and reductionist and depressing.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Usually when you are debating with someone, its futile to actually try to change their mind. Even if you score some crushing points on them, and make utter fools of them, they will just sort of move on and hope that no one notices.

And thats because you are not actually debating to change that individuals mind, you are actually debating to the watching audience.


This is an exert from a debate between Sam Harris and Deepak Chopra. Deepak is an idiot, and makes a blatent misstatement that shows his deep ignorance of physics, completely undermining his position as being a credible authority, or even credible participant in the debate.

Sam recognizes that there is no way he is going to forcefully change his mind. He points out the misstatement. Deepka, dosen't back down. Later in the debate, a physicist working with Stephen Hawking (who was in the audience) comes forward and again crushes Deepak...who again, dosen't back down. Later on, Deepak ends up authoring a book with the same physicist (Leonard Mlodinow) and, you guessed it, dosen't back down.

The important thing isn't that you change your opponents mind, the important thing is what the audience sees: in this case, Sam Harris being patient, articulate, detailed, and demonstrating a deeper understanding of the material, while Deepak blusters like an idiot.

Gerry dosen't matter. You will never change Gerry's mind. What matters is the people following the debate, who may be on the fence about breaking singleton. If you can popularize your argument, inevitably the culture will start to shift to singleton breaking in cube, and while Gerry may still be out there vocally complaining about it, the game as a whole will be better.

As it is now, its easy to tune those types of exhanges out as just another meaningless internet flame war.
 
speaking personally, CML is the only Magic writer whose written voice I don't actively dislike, and is also the one who writes the most like i and my friends write. He isn't caught up in Ostracizers Are Evil and other GSFs like most of the 'professional' magic community, has genuinely good ideas sometimes, and argues them coherently. I would be way way more on his side in all conversations if he was less jarringly misogynist. That's the distinction, I think -- not 'yo hey what's your beef dude, c'mon' -- that in the past has made me dismiss his input. He's also the reason I started reading riptidelab, by the way.

Look, this is a game for nerds, and that's awesome. I love it. But nerds, as people, are often bad at social interaction. If someone can talk constructively about a game I enjoy, and raise the bar for conversation not about model trains while they're at it, I like that. Grillo, you think that the aim in these conversations is to change the minds of your audience, but surely it's to increase net fun?Modulating your emotions and beliefs until they're sufficiently milquetoast for public consumption hurts them, and are we really trying to reach everyone, or just the ones most likely to reflect on it?

also sam harris is an awful philosopher who thinks "science" is a meaningful basis for a universal ethics, a sentence so hilariously off-kilter it isn't even wrong anymore
 

CML

Contributor
I am a huge atheist and a massive fan of the late Christopher Hitchens and I passionately loathe Sam Harris. Back in my 12-year-old Starcraft days I used to go out of my way to "debate" (if you can call it that) Christians and now I don't do that because I think it's missing the point of being an atheist, which is that there are more interesting things to talk about and religion shouldn't be divisive and that irony is what makes us better than religion (and Sam Harris has neither wit nor irony). This is vaguely analogous to the present situation in that anyone who wants to make a living from Magic has to pretend WotC is infallible, not necessarily in the sense of "Vamps are great in Cube" but at least in the sense that "Randy is trying, the good intentions are enough" and never disbelieving one's own good intentions is a great way to go completely insane, which is why I by contrast am a prick on purpose. At any rate, if any one thing (like WotC intentions) is sacred, then by extension everyone that believes in it is, which is why we get articles that never say anything negative ever even while the Pro lifestyle is sharing a double bed with your testing partner in a Motel 6 outside Knoxville and churning out propaganda and potboilers for a hundred bucks a week or what have you. All of this is a natural fit for nerd social biases (as mentioned above), in particular corporate culture is felicitous for nerds because that way you can do stuff passive-aggressively, pretend to have general interests in mind, and immediately dismiss anyone who tries to spark an active and direct conflict, as I do, as damaging to the polity, hard to work with, unreasonable, "unprofessional." Unprofessional? Yes I am! Yet it is incredibly obvious the milquetoast bland positivity, which is way, way more self-serving and solipsistic than I can ever be, and which negatively affects the culture more than I can ever affect it as myself, is what lets WotC get away with treating its pros like sharecroppers or NCAA athletes. Contrast the independent and empathetic mindset that playing card games ought to foster with the groupthink of Magic pros -- everyone is included, it is inclusive, as long as you don't do [certain set of bad things].

In short, it is the very notion of "professionalism" that ensures there are no real Magic pros.

The problem is you can't really get a big platform for airing your views unless you're "professional" about it, big platform being SCG or CFB or to a lesser extent TCG. Wadds can popularize certain Cube techniques in CFB articles, but you cannot change the culture of MTG with articles, or anything, really. MTG culture is sacrosanct, from the top down; Wizards, the depressing and depressed people who work there, dictates it. It's not a topic CFB or SCG will countenance, I've been told explicitly you can't write for SCG if you've ever criticized another SCG writer, I've been told by Frank Lepore that "the point [of the articles] is to sell cards," and when I balked he seemed genuinely shocked I would initiate a conflict, as if being "given a chance" and $25 per article was an act of noblesse oblige. A chance to do what, become like him? No thanks. People used to ask me why I stopped writing and the answer is that I got fired, but at that point I was coming off antidepressants and beginning to enjoy myself and judge things again, it was inevitable, as anyone who knows me now knows -- people say "don't you want to make positive content for the community?" but to me, having written for a major site, such a phrase is meaningless, no I don't want to do that, I want to have people over and draft three Birthing Pods and smoke a joint and have a bottle of wine and gossip. Indeed, Magic pros mainly get paid in Internet adulation, though nothing could be more isolating than that way of life. There must be thirty people on the whole planet Gerry feels he can talk to as equals. What a lonely existence.

So the most we can do here, really, is have sweet Cube articles, which is more interesting than going over the noxious and loserly culture of Magic over and over again. Again Wadds can change Cube for the better, which ought to be our focus. My main motivation in continuing to play paper Magic is the fact that I enjoy my friends, and I made them by being myself -- there is a place for irony and aggression and humor and free exchange in Magic, but it is as distant as can be from the commercialist aspect. Thus RiptideLab is the closest thing on the Internet we have to my real-life community. If the objective is to find more people like us for here, and I think that's the most worthwhile objective, then direct conflict with the commercialist set may be a good way to do that, though I wonder the extent to which this is just self-justification.

(FWIW I feel guilty about much of my past misogyny and am a huge believer in gender equality in the abstract and feminism, in retrospect this is a rather obvious corollary of my antitheism but whatever, people are more interesting than ideologies and labels unless they try to make themselves less so, which I think most every MTG pro is guilty of. I am often wrong and I am often a prick and I am happy to admit those things are true.)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Look, this is a game for nerds, and that's awesome. I love it. But nerds, as people, are often bad at social interaction. If someone can talk constructively about a game I enjoy, and raise the bar for conversation not about model trains while they're at it, I like that. Grillo, you think that the aim in these conversations is to change the minds of your audience, but surely it's to increase net fun?Modulating your emotions and beliefs until they're sufficiently milquetoast for public consumption hurts them, and are we really trying to reach everyone, or just the ones most likely to reflect on it?

I don’t think we are actually disagreeing. We both want to increase the fun of the game, and in order to do that you need to be persuasive to the people in positions of authority to effect the necessary change. As you noted, a perception of jarring misogyny, distracts from the overall message, and makes it less persuasive. This is unfortunate, if the message would make the game more fun.

Though posters such as yourself are not really the focus. You are obviously ok with most of CMLs behavior. The problem is when people start to disregard him (especially people in a decision-making capacity), because of completely unnecessary comments, for example, referring to Marshal Sutcliffe as a mongoloid.

I don't know if you noticed, but even after all of his behavior pissing off WOTC people, Gerry is still talking about CML having good ideas, and that Randy Buehler (!) would benefit from listening to him. Think about that. Thats insane. With a simple conversation, we could possibly go from a MODO cube running singletons and terrible themes, to a true custom draft format, or at least a more bearable MODO cube. Riptide ideas could go from being limited to one small forum, to being entrenched mainstays of the format. The mtg salvation cube forum might become bearable.

And the fact that this will probably never happen, because of some bitter personal feud, is the tragedy.
 

CML

Contributor
I think you guys overestimate the extent to which our ideas have any chance of getting implemented, regardless of conduct, one post saying "it might happen" won't outweigh a bunch more explicitly saying it won't, not to mention inertia, corporate conservatism, etc.

I also think y'all overestimate the extent of the feuds, I don't care that much on a personal level, I've interacted with Gerry in person twice, it's been fine. I'm careful to bear in mind that MTG culture can bring out the worst in me and be more compassionate towards others who have more invested in it and for whom this is also true, at any rate I have no interest in disregarding someone's MTG ideas based on whether I like them or not. I barely know these people, my judgments aren't immutable, and I try to balance stuff like "I went to the PT and don't want to be anything like any of these people" (a friend of mine) with "Gerry T is cool" (another one), I guess we'll see next month?

Based on my experiences with this, the chances that we go from (a small amount of) change to no change due to a not-that-important, not-that-bitter feud are very, very slim. The main regret I have about my style is that I end up not getting as much gossip or as many connects as I might otherwise but it also seems likely that if I did I would have different ideas.

Here's something actionable: if y'all are worried about changing the Modo Cube or whatever, why not hit up Randy B. or the other higher-ups? Many of you guys have similar ideas to mine and are less confrontational (or at least viewed as such). I would be (but actually) very curious to see what would happen.
 
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