Card/Deck Vamps

Yeah, Bitter Feud getting near my Cube would be a tragedy, good call

The earlier discussion a page ago (look, /r/mtgcube is pointing people this way!) says pretty well that there is dialogue going on, and that people are able to find this site. Aiming at CML's goal of "more people [who are] like us [contributing to the discussion here]" seems possible without the combative rhetoric, but is it somehow possible with it? I think so, but then, unmoderated bitchiness is pretty satisfying.

The real tradeoff, I think, is in moderation of voice and originality (which, uh, is why people are pointing here in the first place?) with regards to expected goals. If I were trying to change the MODO cube, I would probably put a lot more stock in not laughing at people who are bad at magic analysis (ideal untapped fixing is better for control?? has this man played a multicolour aggro deck in his life?) and fostering dialogue than I am, at present, prepared to. It would be nice if the MODO cube changed, or the average cube changed, in the abstract. But I don't care about Magic players in the abstract. I am glad if they can have fun more consistently, or in ways that are better designed for longevity and variety. I am even gladder if the people here, from whom I've learned a bunch about cube design, can experience that, and happier yet when my friends do.

Magic is a social game to me, and tournament success has never been my scene. CML, above, says that Magic is about as rewarding as its community is stultifying - this isn't inherent, it's the result of crossing the structure of geek communication (never make people feel bad) with capitalism and the market. Changing things for the better is hard, and sometimes, yeah, I just wanna pass a vape in the opposite direction as the land binder and bullshit ('hey everyone, check out this sweet play!') and maybe talk intently about feelings afterward or something. I also think the difference between pointless forum drivel and content with a really long lead-in can be seen as a function of recommendations made and backed up, so here are some potential options for adjusting the frequency of discourse and how effective it might be.

plan Kanye: 'you should only listen to about 90% of what I have to say' (i.e. even if you don't like CML it's possible he makes good points - there are all sorts of people I can't stand whose arguments I carefully listen to and internalize)
plan Nerd: 'let's not make people feel bad anymore, their ideas are inherently good because they are nice' (no, this is cancerous to community development)
plan 9 from Outer Space: run Zombies instead of Vampires and build around the gravecrawler mechanic (additional design space of 'kill all the zombies' minigame, is a well-made card that changes a single game rule to add innumerable decision trees) instead of the Kalastria Bloodchief mechanic (sac/recur design space, some aggro reach, black lifegain)

Discourse is cool and all but I think everyone involved should be committed to it to see good results. Fun is a subjective but personal experience and all that has to happen for the community to change is for people to, over time, start having more fun with Riptide-style Cubes, which will snowball until the general consensus begins to include them in discussions of what "Cubes" are.
 

CML

Contributor
I think it's an interesting problem to figure out "how to fix the Modo Cube within a given set of constraints," and I care somewhat that Vampires are a bad theme, it would be sweet if drafting were better. I made this:

OUT



IN


Way more people say they're interested in discourse than actually are. This issue of authority is hardly unique to Magic, but nerds seem to take it the hardest when things and people are not as they present themselves, probably due to a lack of judgment, I've been guilty of this, my main experience with learning about corporate culture has been Magic (well, plus college and I guess primary and secondary school). I've seen bunch of people who are far, far more invested in MTG than me, far more idealistic about changing it, better-connected and kinder and less judgmental, go to work for Wizards, then quit. An easy way of conceptualizing WotC is that everyone who works in their hobby is guilty of mixing business and pleasure. That being said, I teach piano and it causes no conflict with my playing piano.

Magic is a social game for me too but I don't know how to find people I like in it without playing competitively, it's likely my life would be hugely different had I not t8'ed an SCG Open in November 2012 and then felt like going on a trip to L.A. for the Invitational. I'd have different friends and maybe different hobbies.

The Kanye quotation that comes to mind for Magic is "Money isn't everything / not having it is."

Plan 9 from outer space is totally incredible.
 

CML

Contributor
ninja'ed out necropotence, kinda miserable, cut archfiend too because lol what the hell was i thinking

hexmage is one of those hosers that's just kinda bad, i think? unless you had some dark depths ULD thing going on
 
i'm a bit late to this party because i saw the title and said "who gives a shit about vampires in cube, they're awful and boring"

so, i have this hypothesis: what if the folks that believe so hard in singleton view cube building not as a subset of game design, but rather as a game. and in this cube-building game of theirs, we are dirty low-down cheaters.
you know the well-known magic person that is down with breaking singleton that i can think of is maro, who is actually a designer unlike many of these others
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
No, you are probably right to cut it. The {B}{B} on a 2/1 is going to tunnel vision someone on monoblack aggro. Better to either have a more flexible hate card or a more flexible aggro beater.

Its kind of funny they were running captivating vampire though in a cube that big.
 
"The earlier discussion a page ago (look, /r/mtgcube is pointing people this way!) says pretty well that there is dialogue going on, and that people are able to find this site."

I'd say it's actually pretty easy to find this site if you're interested in cube; Jason's articles on CFB easily convinced me to check this place out. I haven't even built a cube yet and I'm pretty sure lurking here has already saved me from a great deal of bad cube drafts in the future if I had to figure out on my own what not to do. Specially important since I don't have the patience to do a lot of cube drafts to figure out what's fun; if the first couple drafts sucked, I doubt I'd ever manage to get a group together again.

Oh. And hi.

As an outsider to the internet magic community, I'd say CML kind of comes off as a dick in some posts, but mostly in an entertaining way. I don't think it matters much either way.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
i'm a bit late to this party because i saw the title and said "who gives a shit about vampires in cube, they're awful and boring"

so, i have this hypothesis: what if the folks that believe so hard in singleton view cube building not as a subset of game design, but rather as a game. and in this cube-building game of theirs, we are dirty low-down cheaters.
you know the well-known magic person that is down with breaking singleton that i can think of is maro, who is actually a designer unlike many of these others

Do you have a link to Maro saying this?
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Yeah, I saw that post and though "Yes! Someone who understands!" I get why MODO sticks to singleton though, since it's one of the most common house rules in the format. WotC is clearly not trying to redefine the format with their MODO cube, they're building something that will more or less appeal to the general public, and that public is used to singleton cubes. I think it's great they even deviated from the unfun, powerful stuff in the end. Maybe, just maybe, they will try to push the envelope and really design something of their own, hopefully influenced by Riptide (style) cubes :)

Anyway, for anyone getting over to riptidelab, I think they can easily see past CML's bitching. His posts are usually insightful and witty, if a bit too denigrating at times for my tastes. I keep liking his stuff despite not liking his tone at times, so maybe I'm part of the problem, if there even is a problem at all. It might just as well be be my perceived need slash preference for civil discourse.
 

CML

Contributor
i would say you're not close to part of the problem (i hope that's obvious) since the problem is people ignoring sweet ideas due to excessive sensitivity or image issues, which is so far from what happens here

it's fine that they're not redefining it but man it's hard to look at the changes in more depth, the cube they've created, and conclude that they even tested or tried. i bet far more testing and brainpower went into any of our cubes than this iteration of the modo cube, and given one is drafted more than the other, that is not the best way to allocate resources
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
What confuses me about this Vampires misadventure is the fact they even want to try this idea shows an ability to think beyond the usual power-max etc. terms they set for themselves, but they never consider that the problems they are trying to solve (here, black aggro being bad) are caused by that very mindset and that their solutions expose its flaws - there are people who happily turn all their white creatures into rebels but give you a Glare of Heresy if you suggest maybe playing two copies of a good card.

In a few weeks a bunch of people with no Cube experience will slam Captivating Vampire into Brimaz and Guul Draz Vampire into Isamaru, swear off Cube forever, at which point the developers will scratch their heads and conclude that clearly the answer is to not try any interesting subtheme and just jam the most powerful cards ad infinitum instead.
 

CML

Contributor
Gerry Thompson "If the Cube team is really trying to build the best Cube possible, then why would they dismiss out of hand substantive feedback about a theme multiple people have tried in multiple contexts and largely rejected?"

I don't think they would dismiss it (which is why I encouraged you to supply feedback instead of making fun of them), but I don't believe they have heard that feedback considering it was just recently announced. Also, once it's announced, it is probably too late to attempt to make additional changes to the Cube.

"Don't card games teach us that trying isn't always enough?"

From my perspective, no. I definitely spend a lot of mental energy on trying things I probably shouldn't though.

RE Your suggested changes: I am certainly more excited to try and play black with the cards you've listed, particularly Necropotence and to a lesser extent Victimize. I worry that black as a whole will lack focus, potentially be threat light, and perhaps pigeon-hole people into drafting midrange decks. Plus, things like Brutal Hordechief seem like traps.

Regardless, I would not be interested in drafting Vampires unless I somehow had multiple of the payoff cards, but that just means I'll always pass a payoff card for something else and basically never end up there.
3 hrs · Like











Chris 'cml' Morris-Lent Yeah, the most fun part of MTG for me is design, I used to brew a lot more but with less time I mainly tweak the Cube now. The Cube thread's finest brewer cycles through decks at a rate of several per week, so there's definitely a reward to the process beyond simply winning matches. That being said, I do wish Magic writing, from secondary-market sites if not the Mothership, would be more willing to admit when things went awry design-wise, there's a lot to be learned from experiments that didn't work out (which is most of them) when one admits they didn't work out.

As for actual card choices, Necropotence is one I feel pretty ambivalent about, I'm not sure it leads to desirable game-states but the extra power and/or decisions might be worth it. Archfiend is a bad suggestion on my part, I tried it the other day and my drafters made fun of me, it was pretty funny. You could cut those cards for Puppeteer Clique and Mannequin and strengthen the Reanimator theme.

DTK looks like it has some toys too. One thing I have loved about more or less every new release is that there have been a lot of cards that fit well in Cube, or at least my Cube. It seems like Wizards is designing cards to plug gaps (more red 1's in DTK, more 1W two-drops elsewhere, etc.) and the result is I've significantly reduced the amount of duplicates. I do think duplicates are mildly undesirable in a vacuum, and with new toys from new sets, Black aggro is one of the few design spots where I still want to break singleton. Beyond that, casting Brainstorm is fun, etc.

So I guess we'll see with Vamps in the Modo Cube. My initial analysis occupied a weird spot between theorycrafting and retrospective from my own experience. As to whether it'll work or not there's only one way to find out.

Let us continue to speak of many things





 

CML

Contributor
last edit before i ship this one off. help me help myself

Vampires are Storm
by: CML



The Legacy Cube is back online this week, sporting a redesign that is well-intentioned. To his credit, Randy Buehler has spoken at length [link to http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-...box-episode-6-the-legacy-cube-w-randy-buehler ] about the process. Yet it is the drafters who will have the last word on what is working and what is not. In this article, I will look at Cube design, both as how it was originally conceived and how it has evolved over the last two years, to argue the addition of Vampires to the MTGO Cube is half-baked, ill-conceived and doomed to failure.

Most drafters would agree underpowered archetypes are a bad design choice for Limited environments — nobody wants to draft a deck that will seldom come together; a drafter will make that mistake once, and will never try again. Think of the balance problems with the guilds in triple-Gatecrash, wizards in Onslaught block, Storm in your friend’s unpowered 720: trap decks are some of the most feel-bad experiences in Magic. Most would also agree Black aggro is underpowered in conventional Cubes, and that MTGO’s Legacy Cube is, in spite of “redesigns,” a very conventional Cube. Moreover, the MTGO Cube probably has to be conventional to satisfy people's expectations of what an official Cube “should be,” which limits the number of solutions the designers have at their disposal. There is to be no [link to http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-remodeling-part-two/ ] sac theme with 4 Gravecrawlers and 2 Carrion Feeders — yet.

At any rate, Carnophage et al. are too weak of cards to match up well against much of anything in the average 2015 Cube environment. They will win some matches, but sometimes people beat Torrent Elemental or get there with Dimir. All this is undesirable from a design standpoint. So where do we go from here? One idea would be to weaken the overall power level of the Cube by cutting its strongest cards, but I tend to prefer higher-power environments, and, given how widespread is the idea of “power-maxing,” so must the MTGO drafters. Another solution would be to just cut Diregraf Ghoul et al. and replace them with different Black spells — more finishers, more removal, or more viable yet more expensive creatures. This would strengthen Black, the conventional worst color in conventional Cubes, to the point it is no longer “Blue in OLS” or “Black in AVR.” It would also promote deck diversity through balance. I will come back to this.

The argument for trying to keep Black aggro would also be one of diversity: if a color doesn’t have aggressive options, then there’s less you can do with it. So in order for Black aggro to be worth having around, what Black gains in versatility has to outweigh what it will lose in (already deficient) power level. Does it? This is an evaluation that every designer has to make for every “theme” they put in their Cube — should I have Academy Rector and a few goofy targets, or a Sublime Archangel and three more beaters?

Aggro “themes” are bigger than other themes — they require a lot of slots — but we don’t think about it much because putting in beaters in Naya is what everyone does and what everyone should do. However, the conventional Cube community, at large, has ruled against at least one aggro theme: Blue aggro. Check out http://www.gatheringmagic.com/enabling-blue-based-tempo-or-“blueggro”-in-your-cube/ and tell me that Lu Xun, Horizon Drake, and Mistblade Shinobi are worth three slots in your Cube. If they’re not worth it, the other weak support cards you need to make the theme big enough to be supported aren’t worth it. Thus we cut not just Carnophage but also Sarcomancy, then maybe legit good cards without a home like Bloodsoaked Champion or Dark Confidant. In the case of blue, we can allocate the slots to six Brainstorms, four Rune Snags, and a Dissolve and see how drafters respond to that.

I mention the multiples because in the case of Black aggro, I could come up with no solution that did not involve breaking singleton. Jason Waddell’s articles on this site have a lot of ideas worth borrowing, and the most successful one I’ve implemented in my own Cube (http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/114) is detailed in the Gravecrawler-and-Carrion-Feeder article I linked above. The short version is that Black aggro with Gravecrawlers, Carrion Feeders, Bloodghasts, and Blood Artists is lots of fun because the cards interact well with a number of other themes, can be reduced or increased in number to nerf or buff, and are viable and flexible enough to lead to interesting drafting and gameplay decisions.

About a year ago I noticed that some of the cards the Gravecrawler theme works well with are Vampires, and my Cube contains Blood Artist, Bloodghast, Bloodghast, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Guul Draz Assassin, and Stromkirk Noble, popular inclusions all, as well as DKA Sorin who makes little lifelinking Vampires. These cards are delightful — Vampires, once an OK deck in a Standard format with Jace and Stoneforge, is among the most-pushed tribes in MTG history. A Cube Vampires theme is therefore tempting. I tried it. It failed, but I learned something from it, and some of what I learned I will type out below.

To the above lineup of Vampires, you could also add Bloodline Keeper, Olivia Voldaren, Kalastria Highborn, Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nocturnus, Blade of the Bloodchief, Bloodthrone Vampire, maybe Anowon, the Ruin Sage, and maybe another few that I’m missing, without making the theme too obtrusive. People who aren’t drafting “the Vampire deck” will want to play with some of these cards some of the time, and that’s what you want.

The theme has some strong and flexible cards. So why didn’t it work? Because the incentive is too low. You want the “filler” Vampires to be fought over by a bunch of different people, but not too much — so far, so good. But you also want there to be the incentive of synergy if you get a lot of these cards, and this is what did not happen. The payoff for assembling the tribe was just not that great, so the tribe didn’t come together often enough.

For the week or two I tried the Vampire theme there were maybe 20 vampires in my Cube of 450 cards, or 4.4%. By comparison, there are 56 humans in my current build of 470 cards — 11.9% — and I still cut Mayor of Avabruck and worry about people not picking Champion of the Parish and Xathrid Necromancer until late.

Yet 4.4%, which is insufficient, is significantly higher than the proportion in the Legacy Cube — and my list did not include Guul Draz Vampire, Vampire Interloper, and other draft dreck I see here. If you try to make the theme big enough to support itself, the card quality drops off drastically; that is what sometimes happens if you stick yourself with singleton. It is always funny to me how Cube power-maxers say “Cube is about the good cards,” and then include Sangromancer and try to tell me how “it’s actually good.”

[image of vampire interloper]
“These Vampires are so terrible.” “And there aren’t enough of them, either!”

But I digress. The Legacy Cube has a higher curve, fewer Black aggro cards, and a diluted concentration of Vampires compared to mine when I tried the theme. The environment is almost “strictly worse” for supporting the tribe. This is a bad sign. In the unlikely scenario someone assembles a decent Vampire deck in the Legacy Cube and gets an incentive card or two, they may win some matches. Far more likely are scenarios where the deck only comes partially together (40 percent of cards aren’t “opened” in a 600-carder), or where all the cards go 13th pick. The Zombie theme, synergizing as it does with sac outlets and recursion, is only partially a tribal theme; by contrast, Vampires (minus Bloodghast) are just regular dudes. Due to its linearity and need for critical mass, pure tribal in Cube is fundamentally problematic unless it is Humans, and even Human tribal has to be limited in scope. Mayor of Avabruck is too weak for my Cube, yet it is a two-mana lord in a big tribe who gets you very far ahead if they pass the turn on 2 and/or 3. Yet compare him with the possible Vampire reward cards:

— Blade of the Bloodchief is a bad card. No other drafter will ever want it.
— Bloodlord of Vaasgoth is also a bad card, see above.
— Vampire Nocturnus looks like it should work, but it will not. 1BBB is a restrictive cost in my Cube, which has a lot of fixing — and no one who has ever played full-RTR block should ever bemoan games decided by something other than color-screw.
— Stromkirk Captain is particularly glaring for being underpowered, gold, and poisonous [link to http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-the-poison-principle/ ]. In general, the lack of fixing in the MTGO Cube engenders a lot of non-games and throttles options for multicolor aggro, which brings me to the next card.
— Kalastria Highborn is an amazing card, but there’s only one of them, and it’s not worth it with such a small amount of Vampires.

The bigger issue is that the Legacy Cube is, well, big — 600 cards is a lot fewer than 720, and I commend Randy for slimming it down, but it is still a lot. I understand that the MTGO Cube is drafted hundreds of times as often as any other Cube, and thus requires some variability in the card pool to promote replay value. But adding an artificial theme that will rarely make “the Vampire deck” (with few variations) and will more often than not go undrafted will not promote replay value

With a 600-card singleton Cube, there will never be enough strong Vampires to make a worthwhile theme, yet the theme will be too large and will stoop to include weak cards to artificially support itself — Guul Draz Vampire isn’t better in the abstract than Sarcomancy. This will ensure Black aggro continues to be weak, which will make Black continue to be weak, which is undesirable for all the reasons I covered at the beginning that are widely agreed upon.



So: what next? When I built my Cube, in 2012, it cleaved to conventional design notions; reading my article on TCGPlayer [link to http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10397 ] from a few years ago, I see how radical I thought my solutions to conventional Cube design were, and how implementing these solutions amounted to more or less the same thing. This is my criticism of every MTGO Cube redesign; we get basically the same product every time. Vampires are the latest in a long line of weak themes or weak cards. Maybe this is because you can only do so much with the constraints the MTGO Cube has set for itself.

When designing our own Cubes, we do not have to care about those constraints. It was only when I acquired higher-powered fixing, fetches and duals, did I begin moving towards what I have now. There are infinite ways to build a singleton 720, but there are certain design problems that cannot be solved without drastically slimming down the Cube or breaking singleton, likely both. One of them is supporting multi-colored aggro. Having aggro is absolutely vital, and most of my design choices in my own Cube — more fetches and duals to fix and fix untapped, a smaller size, a lower curve — flow from this axiom; I feel is my greatest success as a Cube designer. Another one of them is the problem of Black aggro. That Black aggro is broadly supported when Blue aggro is widely seen as a joke is, I think, mostly due to inertia and accepted convention, yet for some reason there are Vampires in the MTGO Cube and I am writing a polemic about it.

I have drafted a lot of large singleton Cubes, and it is my experience they support aggro through having the control decks either draw too many 4-drops or color-screwing themselves. (It is also funny to me how Cube power-maxers claim that “the decks should do powerful things” when the average deck will just implode pretty often — a natural result of having an environment with a Limited-style curve [link to http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cuberhauss-please-try-this-at-home-part-2/ ] with a Constructed-style power level.) Anyway, this does technically balance the Cube by bridging the power gap between “Scorched Rusalka” and “JTMS,” but leads to rote drafting and lots of horrible games. I also think few would consider playing big singleton Cubes were the RiptideLab.com-style Cubes popularized first.

Yet it is easy to rip something apart without doing any better myself. I will propose several solutions:

— Best: Let everyone make their own Cubes on MTGO and draft them free of charge. Even if they could, they wouldn’t.
— Better: Offer multiple Cubes.
— Good: Actual redesign of the Legacy Cube with multiple Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts, and so on.
— Realistic: If the constraints on my solution are what I think they are, I would cut all the weaker Vampires and add the strongest Black spells, regardless of function, you can find (excepting Necropotence).

Here’s a little of the ol’ in-out, in-out:

OUT
anowon, the ruin sage
ascendant evincar
bloodlord of vaasgoth
bloodthrone vampire
captivating vampire
guul draz vampire
kalastria highborn
malakir bloodwitch
necropolis regent
pain seer
sangromancer
vampire hexmage
vampire interloper
vampire lacerator
vampire nocturnus
stromkirk captain

IN
flesh carver
lifebane zombie
tasigur, the golden fang
brutal hordechief
abyssal persecutor
archfiend of depravity
darkblast
tragic slip
vampiric tutor
demonic tutor
expunge
consume the meek
innocent blood
victimize
makeshift mannequin
murderous redcap



Thus, Vampires are Storm — in with one unpopular and balmy theme; out with another. (I sort of wonder if these decks would be easier to draft if you got everyone’s last pick — maybe adding Canal Dredger to the MTGO Cube is the solution we’ve been looking for.)

In the last few years since I assembled my Cube, I have implemented dozens of impractical themes. I support experimentation in Cube. I have tried more cards and themes in my Cube than just about anyone. I also have a lot of radical ideas for Cube, including lowering the power level to open up a wider variety of cards, a broader and less explored design space. Design is iterative: I find maybe one idea in twenty worth trying and know it is worth the time spent. But I still throw out the other nineteen — and Vampires was one of those nineteen I didn’t give a second thought to, until I read the MTGO Cube announcement.


There have been a lot of bad cards in my Cube, and there are still a lot of bad cards. I’m not arguing that no one should try Vampires — I have tried Vampires. Rather, I am arguing that, in the context of a 600-card singleton Cube with conventional design choices and a standard power level, Vampires will not solve any design problems, and will not have a net desirable effect on the drafting or gameplay experiences. The MTGO Cube’s great popularity carries an equally great obligation for its team to learn from its previous mistakes, and to test its updates before making them live. It is hard to believe the team, in this case, fulfilled its obligations.
 

Laz

Developer
...
Anyway, this does technically balance the Cube by bridging the power gap between “Scorched Rusalka” and “JTMS,” but leads to rote drafting and lots of horrible games. I also think few would consider playing big singleton Cubes were the RiptideLab.com-style Cubes popularized first.
This Riptide Lab reference seems like it has come out of no-where. 'Power-max singleton' - Self explanatory. 'Riptide Lab cube' - not so. Assuming you are not posting it here, it needs a little explanation.

Due to its linearity and need for critical mass, pure tribal in Cube is fundamentally problematic unless it is Humans, and even Human tribal has to be limited in scope. Mayor of Avabruck is too weak for my Cube, yet it is a two-mana lord in a big tribe who gets you very far ahead if they pass the turn on 2 and/or 3. Yet compare him with the possible Vampire reward cards:
These points need some further explanation.
Why do Humans work and Vampires not? Probably because Champion doesn't need much to be a good card, and you don't have to play dreck in order to leverage him. It is not an incentive card which requires a lot of investment.
Probably a quick line on themes and reward cards. Perhaps rephrase to "the incentives for playing multiple Vampires" instead of "reward cards".

...which will make Black continue to be weak, which is undesirable for all the reasons I covered at the beginning that are widely agreed upon.
I hate this as a rhetorical device.

...a little of the ol’ in-out, in-out
I fear this reference will be lost upon many, but you should keep it.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Maybe try:

"I also think few would consider playing big singleton Cubes were the singleton breaking RiptideLab.com-style Cubes popularized first."

"Due to its linearity and need for critical mass, pure tribal in Cube is fundamentally problematic unless it is Humans (due to the existance of champion of the parish and the sheer bulk of humans naturally ran in cube), and even Human tribal has to be limited in scope. Mayor of Avabruck is too weak for my Cube, yet it is a two-mana lord in a big tribe who gets you very far ahead if they pass the turn on 2 and/or 3. Yet compare him with the possible Vampire reward cards:"

The article looks really good though, and I hope it gets accepted for publication by wherever you are sending it.
 

CML

Contributor
Vampires are Storm
by: CML



The Legacy Cube is back online this week, sporting a redesign that is, let us not forget, well-intentioned. To his credit, Randy Buehler has spoken at length [link to http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-...box-episode-6-the-legacy-cube-w-randy-buehler ] about the redesign process — yet it is the drafters who will ultimately decide what has worked or not. As I write this, we are less than a day in to Legacy Cube drafts on Magic Online, and there have already been dozens of hilarious tweets that express concisely what I’m going to argue below:


[images]



To be sure, Magic players like to complain about changes, but this is a little stronger than usual — we see players rarely critical of Wizards condemning Vampires categorically. The defense “Have you tried it?” makes little sense, as the critics are contending that you didn’t even need to try adding Vampires to know it was bad — and, as someone who has tried Vampires in my own Cube, I completely agree.

In this article, I will look at Cube design, both as how it was originally conceived and how it has evolved over the last two years, to contest that the addition of Vampires to the MTGO Cube is half-baked, ill-conceived and doomed to failure.

Most drafters would agree underpowered archetypes are a bad design choice for Limited environments — nobody wants to draft a deck that will seldom come together; a drafter will make that mistake once, and will never try again. Think of the balance problems with the guilds in triple-Gatecrash, wizards in Onslaught block, Storm in your friend’s unpowered 720: trap decks are some of the most feel-bad experiences in Magic. Most would also agree Black aggro is underpowered in conventional Cubes, and that MTGO’s Legacy Cube is, in spite of “redesigns,” a very conventional Cube. Moreover, the MTGO Cube probably has to be conventional to satisfy people's expectations of what an official Cube “should be,” which limits the number of solutions the designers have at their disposal. There is to be no [link to http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-remodeling-part-two/ ] sac theme with 4 Gravecrawlers and 2 Carrion Feeders — yet.

At any rate, Carnophage et al. are too weak of cards to match up well against much of anything in the average 2015 Cube environment. They will win some matches, but sometimes people beat Torrent Elemental or get there with Dimir. All this is undesirable from a design standpoint. So where do we go from here? One idea would be to weaken the overall power level of the Cube by cutting its strongest cards, but I tend to prefer higher-power environments, and, given how widespread is the idea of “power-maxing,” so must the MTGO drafters. Another solution would be to just cut Diregraf Ghoul et al. and replace them with different Black spells — more finishers, more removal, or more viable yet more expensive creatures. This would strengthen Black, the conventional worst color in conventional Cubes, to the point it is no longer “Blue in OLS” or “Black in AVR.” It would also promote deck diversity through balance. I will come back to this.

The argument for trying to keep Black aggro would also be one of diversity: if a color doesn’t have aggressive options, then there’s less you can do with it. So in order for Black aggro to be worth having around, what Black gains in versatility has to outweigh what it will lose in (already deficient) power level. Does it? This is an evaluation that every designer has to make for every “theme” they put in their Cube — should I have Academy Rector and a few goofy targets, or a Sublime Archangel and three more beaters?

Aggro “themes” are bigger than other themes — they require a lot of slots — but we don’t think about it much because putting in beaters in Naya is what everyone does and what everyone should do. However, the conventional Cube community, at large, has ruled against at least one aggro theme: Blue aggro. Check out http://www.gatheringmagic.com/enabling-blue-based-tempo-or-“blueggro”-in-your-cube/ and tell me that Lu Xun, Horizon Drake, and Mistblade Shinobi are worth three slots in your Cube. If they’re not worth it, the other weak support cards you need to make the theme big enough to be supported aren’t worth it. Thus we cut not just Carnophage but also Sarcomancy, then maybe legit good cards without a home like Bloodsoaked Champion or Dark Confidant. In the case of blue, we can allocate the slots to six Brainstorms, four Rune Snags, and a Dissolve and see how drafters respond to that.

I mention the multiples because in the case of Black aggro, I could come up with no solution that did not involve breaking singleton. Jason Waddell’s articles on this site have a lot of ideas worth borrowing, and the most successful one I’ve implemented in my own Cube (http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/114) is detailed in the Gravecrawler-and-Carrion-Feeder article I linked above. The short version is that Black aggro with Gravecrawlers, Carrion Feeders, Bloodghasts, and Blood Artists is lots of fun because the cards interact well with a number of other themes, can be reduced or increased in number to nerf or buff, and are viable and flexible enough to lead to interesting drafting and gameplay decisions.

About a year ago I noticed that some of the cards the Gravecrawler theme works well with are Vampires, and my Cube contains Blood Artist, Bloodghast, Bloodghast, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Guul Draz Assassin, and Stromkirk Noble, popular inclusions all, as well as DKA Sorin who makes little lifelinking Vampires. These cards are delightful — Vampires, once an OK deck in a Standard format with Jace and Stoneforge, is among the most-pushed tribes in MTG history. A Cube Vampires theme is therefore tempting. I tried it. It failed, but I learned something from it, and some of what I learned I will type out below.

To the above lineup of Vampires, you could also add Bloodline Keeper, Olivia Voldaren, Kalastria Highborn, Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Vampire Nocturnus, Blade of the Bloodchief, Bloodthrone Vampire, maybe Anowon, the Ruin Sage, and maybe another few that I’m missing, without making the theme too obtrusive. People who aren’t drafting “the Vampire deck” will want to play with some of these cards some of the time, and that’s what you want.

The theme has some strong and flexible cards. So why didn’t it work? Because the incentive is too low. You want the “filler” Vampires to be fought over by a bunch of different people, but not too much — so far, so good. But you also want there to be the incentive of synergy if you get a lot of these cards, and this is what did not happen. The payoff for assembling the tribe was just not that great, so the tribe didn’t come together often enough.

For the week or two I tried the Vampire theme there were maybe 20 vampires in my Cube of 450 cards, or 4.4%. By comparison, there are 56 Humans in my current build of 470 cards — 11.9% — and I still cut Mayor of Avabruck and worry about people not picking Champion of the Parish and Xathrid Necromancer until late.

Yet 4.4%, which is insufficient, is significantly higher than the proportion in the Legacy Cube — and my list did not include Bloodcrazed Neonate, Vampire Interloper, and other draft dreck I see here. If you try to make the theme big enough to support itself, the card quality drops off drastically; that is what sometimes happens if you stick yourself with singleton. It is always funny to me how Cube power-maxers say “Cube is about the good cards,” and then include Sangromancer and try to tell me how “it’s actually good.”

[rakish heir]

“These Vampires are so terrible.” “And there aren’t enough of them, either!”

But I digress. The Legacy Cube has a higher curve, fewer Black aggro cards, and a diluted concentration of Vampires compared to mine when I tried the theme. The environment is almost “strictly worse” for supporting the tribe. This is a bad sign. In the unlikely scenario someone assembles a decent Vampire deck in the Legacy Cube and gets an incentive card or two, they may win some matches. Far more likely are scenarios where the deck only comes partially together (40 percent of cards aren’t “opened” in a 600-carder), or where all the cards go 13th pick. The Zombie theme, synergizing as it does with sac outlets and recursion, is only partially a tribal theme; by contrast, Vampires (minus Bloodghast) are just regular dudes. Due to its linearity and need for critical mass, pure tribal in Cube is fundamentally problematic unless it is Humans, and even Human tribal has to be limited in scope. Mayor of Avabruck is too weak for my Cube, yet it is a two-mana lord in a big tribe who gets you very far ahead if they pass the turn on 2 and/or 3. Yet compare him with the incentives for playing multiple Vampires:

— Blade of the Bloodchief is a bad card. No other drafter will ever want it.
— Bloodlord of Vaasgoth is also a bad card, see above.
— Rakish Heir wasn’t even good in ISD draft.
— Vampire Nocturnus looks like it should work, but it will not. 1BBB is a restrictive cost in my Cube, which has a lot of fixing — and no one who has ever played full-RTR block should ever bemoan games decided by something other than color-screw.
— Stromkirk Captain is particularly glaring for being underpowered, gold, and poisonous [link to http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cube-design-the-poison-principle/ ]. In general, the lack of fixing in the MTGO Cube engenders a lot of non-games and throttles options for multicolor aggro, which brings me to the next card.
— Kalastria Highborn is an amazing card, but there’s only one of them, and it’s not worth it with such a small amount of Vampires.

The bigger issue is that the Legacy Cube is, well, big — 600 cards is a lot fewer than 720, and I commend Randy for slimming it down, but it is still a lot. I understand that the MTGO Cube is drafted hundreds of times as often as any other Cube, and thus requires some variability in the card pool to promote replay value. But adding an artificial theme that will rarely make “the Vampire deck” (with few variations) and will more often than not go undrafted will not promote replay value

With a 600-card singleton Cube, there will never be enough strong Vampires to make a worthwhile theme, yet the theme will be too large and will stoop to include weak cards to artificially support itself — Guul Draz Vampire isn’t better in the abstract than Sarcomancy. This will ensure Black aggro continues to be weak, which will make Black continue to be weak, which is undesirable for all the reasons I covered at the beginning.



So: what next? When I built my Cube, in 2012, it cleaved to conventional design notions; reading my article on TCGPlayer [link to http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10397 ] from a few years ago, I see how radical I thought my solutions to conventional Cube design were, and how implementing these solutions amounted to more or less the same thing. This is my criticism of every MTGO Cube redesign; we get basically the same product every time. Vampires are the latest in a long line of weak themes or weak cards. Maybe this is because you can only do so much with the constraints the MTGO Cube has set for itself.

When designing our own Cubes, we do not have to care about those constraints. It was only when I acquired higher-powered fixing, fetches and duals, did I begin moving towards what I have now. There are infinite ways to build a singleton 720, but there are certain design problems that cannot be solved without drastically slimming down the Cube or breaking singleton, likely both. One of them is supporting multi-colored aggro. Having aggro is absolutely vital, and most of my design choices in my own Cube — more fetches and duals to fix and fix untapped, a smaller size, a lower curve — flow from this axiom; I feel is my greatest success as a Cube designer. Another one of them is the problem of Black aggro. That Black aggro is broadly supported when Blue aggro is widely seen as a joke is, I think, mostly due to inertia and accepted convention, yet for some reason there are Vampires in the MTGO Cube and I am writing a polemic about it.

I have drafted a lot of large singleton Cubes, and it is my experience they support aggro through having the control decks either draw too many 4-drops or color-screwing themselves. (It is also funny to me how Cube power-maxers claim that “the decks should do powerful things” when the average deck will just implode pretty often — a natural result of having an environment with a Limited-style curve [link to http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/cuberhauss-please-try-this-at-home-part-2/ ] with a Constructed-style power level.) Anyway, this does technically balance the Cube by bridging the power gap between “Scorched Rusalka” and “JTMS,” but leads to rote drafting and lots of horrible games. I also think few would consider playing big singleton Cubes were Cubes with good mana and low curves and difficult decisions — i.e., Cubes far more like actual Legacy — popularized first.

Yet it is easy to rip something apart without doing any better myself. I will propose several solutions:

— Best: Let everyone make their own Cubes on MTGO and draft them free of charge. Even if they could, they wouldn’t.
— Better: Offer multiple Cubes.
— Good: Actual redesign of the Legacy Cube with multiple Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts, and so on.
— Realistic: If the constraints on my solution are what I think they are, I would cut all the weaker Vampires and add the strongest Black spells, regardless of function, you can find (excepting Necropotence).

Here’s a little of the ol’ in-out, in-out:

OUT
anowon, the ruin sage
ascendant evincar
bloodlord of vaasgoth
bloodthrone vampire
captivating vampire
guul draz vampire
kalastria highborn
malakir bloodwitch
necropolis regent
pain seer
sangromancer
vampire hexmage
vampire interloper
vampire lacerator
vampire nocturnus
stromkirk captain
rakish heir
bloodcrazed neonate

IN
flesh carver
lifebane zombie
tasigur, the golden fang
brutal hordechief
abyssal persecutor
archfiend of depravity
darkblast
tragic slip
vampiric tutor
demonic tutor
expunge
consume the meek
innocent blood
victimize
makeshift mannequin
murderous redcap
lightning berserker
zurgo bellringer



In previous iterations of the (unpowered) MTGO Cube, a handful of slots have been devoted to Storm — a incredibly linear mechanic that overlaps with, well, pretty much nothing else. The Storm deck came together once in a blue moon, usually because one drafter wheeled the Lion’s Eye Diamond and the Brain Freeze or whatever — cards he desperately needed to wheel, and that none of the other drafters had any interest in taking, especially if they were, you know, trying to win.

Vampires are the new Storm — in with one unpopular and balmy theme; out with another. (I sort of wonder if these decks would be easier to draft if you got everyone’s last pick — maybe adding Canal Dredger to the MTGO Cube is the solution we’ve been looking for.) Maybe the egregious failure of Vampires will inspire the Cube design team to take a hard look at other design choices that have failed; maybe it will end up being a good thing. If not, Cube designers can enjoy the great luxury of learning from other people’s mistakes.

In the last few years since I assembled my Cube, I have implemented dozens of impractical themes. I support experimentation in Cube. I have tried more cards and themes in my Cube than just about anyone. I also have a lot of radical ideas for Cube, including lowering the power level to open up a wider variety of cards, a broader and less explored design space. Design is iterative: I find maybe one idea in twenty worth trying and know it is worth the time spent. But I still throw out the other nineteen — and Vampires was one of those nineteen I didn’t give a second thought to, until I read the MTGO Cube announcement.


There have been a lot of bad cards in my Cube, and there are still a lot of bad cards. I’m not arguing that no one should try Vampires — I have tried Vampires. Rather, I am arguing that, in the context of a 600-card singleton Cube with conventional design choices and a standard power level, Vampires will not solve any design problems, and will not have a net desirable effect on the drafting or gameplay experiences. The MTGO Cube’s great popularity carries an equally great obligation for its team to learn from its previous mistakes, and to test its updates before making them live. It is hard to believe the team, in this case, fulfilled its obligations.
 

CML

Contributor
Everyone email acooperfauss at gmail and indicate your support of this article appearing on CFB -- if I'm just one person saying this, it's easy to ignore, but if there are a bunch of people who agree with me it is harder to just push off to the side.

Thanks, I preesh it
 
Everyone email acooperfauss at gmail and indicate your support of this article appearing on CFB -- if I'm just one person saying this, it's easy to ignore, but if there are a bunch of people who agree with me it is harder to just push off to the side.

Thanks, I preesh it

So I didn't know what to say but decided to make an effort & throw a few white lies around. I did rush a bit but in the end an email is an email, rite goiz? It either reads very well or COMPLETELY retarded. I have no shame so I don't care either way, but if it is bad, here's a laugh on me:

Recently, an article written by Chris Morris-Lent was sent to me for peer review and as a regular reader of CFB articles, I feel I should express that I personally believe its valid points and merits warrant it very worthy of being hosted on the site sometime in the near future. I personally would even go as far as to say it may be the most important constructive criticism of the legacy cube that I've read since the inception of the legacy cube. It could play a very influential role in the MTG community, but only if you give it a chance in the spotlight. As I'm sure he's already e-mailed you his piece, I simply wish to advocate in favor of it being hosted on the site. I also implore you read it for yourself, as it's honestly quite the piece. May you have a most pleasant day, and thank you for your time.

Did I goof or what?
 
Did you forget the Legacy part of the Legacy Cube? Demonic Tutor's not legal. (Neither is Necropotence for that matter.)
 
Top