General 'walkers and "everything costs 4"
- Thread starter CML
- Start date
I like him, and I also like
Life total?
uhhh nine
Pow
But I think planeswalkers mechanically make combat too clumsy and make a lot of old cards designed to be board sweeps, like pernicious deed, that much more ridiculous, so the effect at all should be overcosted IMO.
I personally hate planeswalkers. I don't run any. If I did though, I don't think I'd run this one because it doesn't really do enough (which is odd since most planeswalkers do too much for what they cost).
Sorin's Vengeance on the other hand? I've been wanting to add that to my cube for awhile now. It's just such an extreme card - 20 life point swing with a single card is ridiculous (even at 7 mana and BBB). I'm 95% sure this card would be popular in my group (I'd run it - I want to build a UB ramp deck that stalls for 4 turns, casts this on turn 4/5 and then snapcaster's it on turn 6. Oh yeah.). And the art is sweet too (actually a factor for me as lame as that might sound).
You are not alone in that.
It's great pals with all of these buddies
Alright, so maybe that last one is kind of a joke in my community...
Alright, so maybe that last one is kind of a joke in my community...
Sorin's Vengeance is a very real possibility, as a kind of Cruel Ultimatum which can realistically be cast. I shed a few manly tears when I found myself cutting that card, so even a smaller brother would do me good at this point. My only problem is that my black is completely stacked, with pox/stax, as well as more conventional aggro, and of course the odd control enablers. Does anyone actually play with it, or are we simply drooling over it theoretically? 
I have it, and it gets its fair share of play, usually as a midrange or even ramp finisher. Only once has anyone ever lived the markov -3 into vengeance dream. One player joked about getting the card altered to have Gideon as the victim, since the card seems to kill more Gideons than players. Has killed a few karns at 10 loyalty in its time as well.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Massacre Wurm is the boss by the way. Sweet with pod, usually domes them for 6 when he comes into play, huge synergy with wrath (So....take 10? )
)Massacre Wurm has been important because of his sweeper effect (it keeps some of the token themes in check), so I really don't want to drop him. My other two 6+ mana black cards are Death Cloud (which I think is awesome sauce) and Kokusho, the Evening Star (who I also really like). So this is why Sorin's Vengeance hasn't found a way into my cube.
I.. was actually just thinking of making the Sorin Markov for Kokusho swap. I hate to say it, but sad as it is, I think the Kamigawa dragons' time in the sun is more or less officially over. 5/5's for six that need to be killed before you get their effect are underwhelming these days, and don't even help control decks stabilize against aggro.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Oh, I should also mention both Sheoldred and Mikeaeus "The Podfather" Unhallowed are awsomesauce.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Not uncastable, just hard.
Also didn't you cut relic? I've swapped it for worn powerstone for power reasons.
Actually I think it's palidium myr right now because creatures are sweet
It's amazing how stupid I am, as I've been resisting massacre wurm, but your comment about token dcks makes perfect (obvious) sense. I should add as I've got a bit token heavy.
Not uncastable, just hard.
Also didn't you cut relic? I've swapped it for worn powerstone for power reasons.
Actually I think it's palidium myr right now because creatures are sweet
I've found the myr to be a bit fragile, but I guess good if you want to keep ramp more interactive and In check?
I love massacre wurm and everything it does. Just a couple days ago I had to remind my players that the 'lose 2 life' clause is not part of the ETB effect, and that had lots of eyes widening.
The only big black I run that hasn't been mentioned yet is Rune-scarred Demon and that sees plenty of play.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah it' intentional. If you want to ramp more than 2 turns at once, it'd better cost 4 or be easily killable (Joraga Treespeaker, etc)
So.. how many walkers in a cube is too many?
I'm trying to figure out if my last draft's midrange-fest was because I went up to fifteen walkers, or due to other factors. It probably doesn't help that I've since added in two more walkers, bringing the total to seventeen...
I'm trying to figure out if my last draft's midrange-fest was because I went up to fifteen walkers, or due to other factors. It probably doesn't help that I've since added in two more walkers, bringing the total to seventeen...
I think it's more than just a number, but, among other things:
- are they all auto-includes?
- how many of them can be legitimately used in aggro
- how many of them put tokens on the board
- are they all auto-includes?
- how many of them can be legitimately used in aggro
- how many of them put tokens on the board
I'll admit that the original backbone of my cube was my little collection of foil walkers (one of each) at the point when Mirrodin Besieged was the new set, and I just crammed them all in there and went to town, excluding only Nissa and Chandra-6. Needless to say it was pretty much the worst thing ever.
I've since axed them to 3 per color, then 2 and one of each 2-color. One that defends itself (through token or removal) and one that doesn't in each color, with the exception of green because MAKE A DUDE. I hard-swapped Elspeth Tirel for Elspeth, Sun's Champion and even though they're still 1/1s, 5 loyalty is a lot more than 2.
I've since axed them to 3 per color, then 2 and one of each 2-color. One that defends itself (through token or removal) and one that doesn't in each color, with the exception of green because MAKE A DUDE. I hard-swapped Elspeth Tirel for Elspeth, Sun's Champion and even though they're still 1/1s, 5 loyalty is a lot more than 2.
CML
Contributor
walkers have a bizarre effect on cube design since they're so good against both in and against slower decks, on balance i think they're good for aggro decks because the only reasonable way to fight them is to go under but after declaring "TNN is good for Merfolk in every possible way!!" and getting pyroblasted into oblivion yesterday, i am not so sure.
i think 15/450 is just about right (so 12 for wadds?), then i'd take care to vary their colors, functions, and CMCs. a walker section with wildspeaker, relentless, good ajani, better ajani, good elspeth, bw sorin is less interesting than one with wildspeaker, caller of beasts, bad ajani, 5-mana elspeth, big sorin.
i think 15/450 is just about right (so 12 for wadds?), then i'd take care to vary their colors, functions, and CMCs. a walker section with wildspeaker, relentless, good ajani, better ajani, good elspeth, bw sorin is less interesting than one with wildspeaker, caller of beasts, bad ajani, 5-mana elspeth, big sorin.
I wrote up a giant ranting wall of text about why I dislike walkers. But I opted to delete it after I wrote it because I know walkers are popular and there's little point in trying to convince people they suck. It's a futile argument.
I'm simply going to point out that it seems to me there is something very wrong with the fact that you guys have to talk about limiting the number of walkers in your cube. What other card type do you have to intentionally limit in order to prevent an unwanted warping effect on your meta? Is anyone limiting the number of instants? Creatures? Sorceries? Artifacts? Enchantments? Exactly. Because none of those card types are fundamentally broken in design (even if some of them are broken due to improper costing).
I'm simply going to point out that it seems to me there is something very wrong with the fact that you guys have to talk about limiting the number of walkers in your cube. What other card type do you have to intentionally limit in order to prevent an unwanted warping effect on your meta? Is anyone limiting the number of instants? Creatures? Sorceries? Artifacts? Enchantments? Exactly. Because none of those card types are fundamentally broken in design (even if some of them are broken due to improper costing).