General 'walkers and "everything costs 4"

Changling Bob

Changling Bob

Jason Waddell said:
Let's keep in mind that chess is a game that was iterated and iterated until reaching it's current state. Chess didn't fall out of somebody's brain as the game that is played today. I am sure there were versions that were much worse, and versions that thankfully introduced new pieces.
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I read/am still reading a book on this (Playing the World, Jon Peterson), which is fascinating to see how it came about, and how it developed from earlier games, and developed further into primitive wargames, into the Kriegspiel of Prussia and Germanic traditions, and that's as far as I've got in that section but it does lead directly into D&D.

Incidentally, did you know that the AC and hit points system from D&D is taken from naval wargames; where ships have an armor that may deflect shots, but if it isn't deflected it will penetrate and do a certain amount of damage, and only so much can be taken before the ship sinks. You know, entirely unlike how people get hit by swords. So yeah, in D&D you're playing a particularly mobile and peculiarly shaped ship. Fun facts. [/area of my expertise]
 
CML

CML

Contributor
The other's day-like features changed indefinably as his attention, like a squadron of slow old battleships, began wheeling to face this new phenomenon, and in a moment or two he was able to say: 'Margaret.'
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Good thing they printed Kiora, the midrangiest yet.

The other day it came to mind that maybe there's less design space for walkers than initially meets the eye, which is why they're all basically 4 mana and basically good in and against midrange. What do yall think?

CT et al. what would a 2-cmc or 3-cmc gold walker look like? 5 or 6 cmc?
 
Lucre

Lucre

CML said:
Good thing they printed Kiora, the midrangiest yet.

The other day it came to mind that maybe there's less design space for walkers than initially meets the eye, which is why they're all basically 4 mana and basically good in and against midrange. What do yall think?

CT et al. what would a 2-cmc or 3-cmc gold walker look like? 5 or 6 cmc?
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Oh god I'm never going to sleep now...
 
Laz

Laz

Developer
You speak the truth, I mean, look at how well Tibalt worked out.

I think there is design space for an aggro Planeswalker, but I don't know if such a thing would likely be printed, it seems Planeswalkers are just mid-range-durdle-fest.

Something like: (No costs given, planeswalkers are hard to balance)
(1?)RB
+ Each player loses 2 life
- Creatures you control get +1/+0 and haste until end of turn
Big- Put some number of hasty 4/4s into play

Basically a Sulphuric Vortex on legs...
 
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Goldenpineapple

Goldenpineapple

Laz said:
I think there is design space for an aggro Planeswalker
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Caller of the pride is probably as good as it will get. I don't think we'll see a two-mana planeswalker with a + that actively kills your opponent, much less one with a faster clock than red's flagship walker. How much mana they cost seems to be directly proportional to the power of their abilities, give or take based on how pushed they are for formats.

As they've proven multiple times already it's very easy to make a planeswalker oppressively powerful in a lot of situations, and personally I approve of the new direction the latest walkers have taken; scaling back their general power level is good IMO, even at the cost of seeing more existing-cards-stapled-together planeswalkers.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Changling Bob said:
Incidentally, did you know that the AC and hit points system from D&D is taken from naval wargames; where ships have an armor that may deflect shots, but if it isn't deflected it will penetrate and do a certain amount of damage, and only so much can be taken before the ship sinks. You know, entirely unlike how people get hit by swords. So yeah, in D&D you're playing a particularly mobile and peculiarly shaped ship. Fun facts. [/area of my expertise]
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Don't get me started on how stupid the AC/HP system is in D&D.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Goldenpineapple said:
Caller of the pride is probably as good as it will get. I don't think we'll see a two-mana planeswalker with a + that actively kills your opponent, much less one with a faster clock than red's flagship walker. How much mana they cost seems to be directly proportional to the power of their abilities, give or take based on how pushed they are for formats.

As they've proven multiple times already it's very easy to make a planeswalker oppressively powerful in a lot of situations, and personally I approve of the new direction the latest walkers have taken; scaling back their general power level is good IMO, even at the cost of seeing more existing-cards-stapled-together planeswalkers.
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44.jpg
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Changling Bob said:
I'm well aware how stupid AC/HP is and love it :)
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It is and always has been my least favorite part of the game.

DM: "The ogre is running away. Do you want to shoot an arrow at him?"
Me: "Why? Arrows do D8 damage and he probably has more hit points left than that. So it's pointless."

I much prefer more realistic game systems (Runequest, Harnmaster, etc.) where everything is very mortal. Nothing under 10 feet that isn't a super natural creature should be able to survive a critical hit from a battle ax. Sorry.
 
Changling Bob

Changling Bob

It really depends on how you run the game. I run something homebrewed styled as OD&D, but is closer to BECMI, I guess. Last session my first level PCs blew up a 3HD demon with crossbows before it got close to them. They have, like, 4 or 5 hp, and the demon hit for high roll on 2d8, so averaging about 5-6, so I was disappointed that he didn't get to attack them. In that paradigm, 1d6 damage from a weapon is the same hp that a 1HD monster has, so a good sword hit will kill your average orc (or PC!), which works nicely. Ogres are 3HD, so they've got between 3 and 18hp, so you're going to need a couple of arrows to fell a fleeing ogre, but he might die to one, or might survive 4 or 5 (or technically, 17).

But yeah, if you're playing 3.x-ish, where values are unbound, yeah it can get a bit silly. I use descending AC, because there's only so hard to hit you can be (dex of 13+ gives an improvement (reduction) of 1, but that's it). In 3.x, you have AC 16 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +5 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 8, flat-footed 16, and what's that I ask you. Ogres have AC 5, because they're about as hard to harm as someone in chainmail and armour trappings.

I should make a D&D thread so I can grognard you all to death (the punchline is that I'm 26 and started playing super old-school d&d like 3 years ago).

E: wait no, I'm 26 on 4th, I should cling onto this not being quite as old as i can
 
Lucre

Lucre

Lol I was supposed to play d&d tonight but I hate laste minute RP sessions so I'm gonna make everyone play BSG, peasant cube or AgriCola.
I wish I could chime in here but I'm taking Jasons advice and flirting indiscriminately with inaccessible women in other countries online and should probz work out before boys get here and it's cake forever.

Anyone here look up Talislanta, the absolutely not balanced RPG?
Their deflection and DR defenses seem to make more sense to you and I enjoy the tiers of success system they have for hitting and checks (it tends to work within degrees below or above target numbers to render different levels of success)
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Changling.... you totally should make a D&D thread. I'd really be interested in what you are playing specifically and how you are handling some of the escalating HP problems prevalent in every version of that game I've ever played (original AD&D all the way through 4.0 - which sucks donkey balls IMO - 3.5 was elegant but flawed).

We are currently playing Hackmaster, which is a cool D&D spin-off. It still has escalating HP, but it's managed better (more in line with AD&D vs 3.0) and it also has threshold of pain rules (so one hit can take you out of combat even if it doesn't kill you). It's a crunchy system (and grittier than D&D), but one of the best I've used (doesn't use turns, instead you count off combat using seconds and each action takes a specific number of seconds to complete - it sounds complicated but it's very smooth and flows better than turn based systems generally do).

Lucre... I have not heard of it, but I'll check it out.

I'm 38 BTW and have been playing role-playing games since I was a kid. I even made my own system.
 
Changling Bob

Changling Bob

I made a thread for RPGs.

SO PLANESWALKERS, what do people think about Tamiyo in cube? I only want one of each colour walker at the moment, because reasons, and she seems the most interesting.
 
James Stevenson

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
I like Tamillo! I don't really have reasons other than aesthetic ones. I love her art and I like Kamigawa, and yeah, she's pretty excellent when she's in play. Sometimes you play her and just keep +1ing her and eventually ultimate her and then you win.
 
CML

CML

Contributor
Koth pic: "much less one with a clock than red's flagship walker," "pure aggro planeswalker" etc.

Jace Beleren is the U walker with the most play to him, I think, something about his design and Garruk Wildspeaker's is just perfect
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Lucre said:
I wish I could chime in here but I'm taking Jasons advice and flirting indiscriminately with inaccessible women in other countries online
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This is the best advice and sometimes you will be surprised by how thin the line between inaccessible and accessible is.
 
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