General We Make The Cube
- Thread starter Velrun
- Start date
Ideas for the Further Development of this Cube
I wanted to write this because we're about 33% of the way through the design process of this Cube (barring some late-stage swaps and changes we will inevitably need to make if we wish to create an optimized play experience) as a means to help guide the development of the rest of the Cube. Everything I am writing is based on trends I am observing from the overall card pool, and it is meant to be descriptive rather than prescriptive. The plan here is to simply talk about what I'm seeing, share that with the rest of the group, and attempt to see if we are on the same page for this process. Any archetype ideas or gameplay functions I observe we can still change as it is early in this process. I just want to talk more about this so we can have a more polished final product once we're done here. It would be nice if the community Cube is fun to draft for a reason other than "Cubes are fun and it's a Cube!"
This piece should help in an attempt to create a Cube with a reasonable color balance (if that is something we decide we want) and a reasonable power band in order to create the best gameplay experience possible (which we all should want). I can make this a living document- I will update it with new ideas and feedback.
Part 1: Guild Slot Structure
This Cube is pretty clearly going to be Enemy-Color (
) gold-focused judging from everything we've added so far. However, some of the themes and archetypes we are adding such as Artifacts, Lands, and Discard tend to be at home in the Ally Color combinations (). We may want to further support for these mechanical themes in the Ally color pairs, even if we want the Cube to focus on the Enemy color pairs. I think there is a relatively simple solution to keep the Cube enemy focused while still supporting the Ally color pairs: an asymmetric gold section.In my Cube, I've been trying to nudge drafters into the three color "wedge" combinations(which are based in the enemy color pairs) without entirely invalidating Ally or Shard decks. The way I have achieved this is by using an asymmetric gold section. I do this by supporting all 10 guilds, but giving the Enemy colors a couple more gold cards than the Ally colors, as opposed to keeping everything symetric. The Cube is still color balanced, but the gold cards are weighted away from the Ally pairs. They're still draftable, but they're not going to seem as naturally "open" to drafters.
An asymmetric gold section might look like:
-5 Enemy Color gold cards per color pair.
-3 Ally Color gold cards per color pair.
-1 Gold card per Wedge
Now, for this Cube, depending on how far we want to go into the Wedge theme, we may want to do a structure that looks like:
-6 Enemy Color gold cards per color pair.
-3 Ally Color gold cards per color pair.
-2 Gold cards per Wedge
This seems like a good structure because it allows for plenty of cool gold cards across all colors, allowing all 2-color combinations to remain playable, while naturally skewing the draft towards the enemy color combinations. Remember that the Ally color cards aren't only for Ally color decks- Wedge decks can play them too! Whatever card we add to
will be played in decks.Part 2: Draft Archetypes
Looking at the card pool so far, we seem to have the following archetypes forming. Bold archetypes are clear directions for the pair based on the current card list, Normal archetypes are suggested but not quire supported, and Itallicised archetypes are potential directions for the color combinations to be taken.
Enemy Colors
: Reanimator, Aristocrats: Self-Mill, Delve: Spells, Delve, Junk Tokens: Spells, Tempo, Artifacts, Treasure, Pirates: Tempo, Spells, EquipmentAlly Colors
: Artifacts: Cycling: Artifact Sacrifice: Lands, Dreadhorde Arcanist: LandsWedges
: Reanimator: Noncreature Spells Matter (Artifacts+ Prowess), Cycling: Delve, Cycling: Artifact Aristocrats, Normal Aristocrats, Dreadhorde Arcanist: Instants and Sorceries SpellslingerAgain, these are loose and based purely on observations. These would be good directions to take what we have already started, but things could change going forward.
Part 3: Theater Playstyles
This cube appears to be stuck between two potential identities: it wants to be both a fast, tempo-oriented format, and a slow, grindy format. The easy answer to this question is to just choose both! We can build a format where most of the suggested cards are viable without having to sacrifice most of the efficient, context variable cards or the low-power synergy cards. The key to making this work will depend entirely on shaping our broad play patterns well.
Aggro
"True" aggro appears to be undesirable in the current version of this Cube, with most of the splashy cool cards costing in the 5-7 mana range. While this Cube doesn't look like it's retail limited power level, a lot of the top-end pieces are below Standard constructed power level and would probably be most at home at a Casual EDH table if they weren't in this Cube. A deck that is focusing on vomiting out a ton of 1 drops and then killing the opponent with Burn spells before turn 4 probably isn't going to fly in this Cube if we want to ensure the top end is still viable. I also feel that the community nature of this project will make it really difficult to reach the expected 9 or so one-mana spells we would want in a format running true aggro.
I think, given the current card pool, our best bet for aggro would be to split the ticket between a
miracle-grow/prowess style deck and Equipment decks modeled as a higher-power version of the decks from the Penny Pincher 2.0 cube. This will allow us a good range of extremely proactive synergistic strategies that won't be too fast for other decks to efficiently compete with. We can even tailor our removal suite to keep these decks main engine pieces in check, more on that in part 4.Control
Control is going to have a difficult time being well-supported in this Cube without being oppressive. The problem is that we are going to want ways to defeat highly proactive strategies while not entirely invalidating slow, non-controlling decks. I still think we will need Board Wipes, Cantrips, and Counterspells to make Control strategies viable, however, I think we will need to choose our cards carefully. Personally, I think unique spells like Ritual of Soot, Sweltering Suns, and Languish can help to eliminate some of the low-to-the-ground decks that would otherwise ruin Control's day, but won't hurt the midrange synergy decks too badly outside of some of their frail early game value engines.
As for color combinations, I see control in this Cube being primarily based in
, , and probably being a Cycling deck with Board Wipes. I think this plan will play well with cards like Censor and Miscalculation- control staple spells we're already going to want for their smoothing abilities and non-oppressive interaction.Combo
I don't see any true Combo decks appearing in this Cube unless someone goes off the deep end and tries to add Twin or Storm or something.
Midrange
Midrange is the bread and butter of this Cube, with virtually every currently supported Synergy deck falling into this Theater of Play. Basically every Midrange deck in this Cube is likely to be a Synergy deck, not focusing on raw value as much as it is focusing on trying to build an engine. I think we will need to temper the power level of our removal spells in order to make sure efficient spells like Path to Exile aren't ruining a Marionette Master player's day. More on this in the next section.
Part 4: Potential Additions to Mirror Apparent Play Patterns
Removal
Well-balanced removal is the difference between a good and a great limited environment. I think in this Cube, we will want to have three classes of removal: cheap things that kill small creatures, expensive things that kill all creatures, and inexpensive things that stop attacks but won't shut down abilities. This way, decks will have the tools they need to stop early threats like Tarmogoyf and Grim Flayer, without dunking too hard on higher-cost cards like Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and Lightning Angel. This will also help to prevent inevitable "Enchantment Baneslayers" like The Gitrog Monster from being invalidated by the removal required to keep the efficient cards in check.
Classed-Removal Examples
Cheap things that Kill Small Creatures
Expensive things that Kill all Creatures
Inexpensive things that Stop Attacks but won't Shut Down Abilities
Fills Several Categories
This section will be expanded in the future if more ideas arise.
Part 5: Potential Swaps
I think we're going to need to swap some cards at some point, but I'm going to reserve publicizing my swap thoughts until we add more to the Cube. I think we will need to chop some over and underpowered cards out of the final product, though.
Conclusion
Hopefully, you all like these ideas. Please provide feedback on this post. I think this is a good base to fill out the rest of the Cube with but these ideas are entirely based on my own thoughts and observations. Don't treat this as a final word or anything- I just want to try to make a plan for filling out the rest of the Cube list.
Last edited:
Hey Velrun, you don't need to make a separate cube for the basic land box, you can simply use the "customize basics" feature to add the desired cards!
That button opens this interface:
And you can add whatever cards you want!
I was thinking hard what to add. I saw a lack of kill spells and a lot of artifacts. I always like counterplay and am genuinely afraid that this cube will have board stall.Ideas for the Further Development of this Cube
I wanted to write this because we're about 33% of the way through the design process of this Cube (barring some late-stage swaps and changes we will inevitably need to make if we wish to create an optimized play experience) as a means to help guide the development of the rest of the Cube. Everything I am writing is based on trends I am observing from the overall card pool, and it is meant to be descriptive rather than prescriptive. The plan here is to simply talk about what I'm seeing, share that with the rest of the group, and attempt to see if we are on the same page for this process. Any archetype ideas or gameplay functions I observe we can still change as it is early in this process. I just want to talk more about this so we can have a more polished final product once we're done here. It would be nice if the community Cube is fun to draft for a reason other than "Cubes are fun and it's a Cube!"
This piece should help in an attempt to create a Cube with a reasonable color balance (if that is something we decide we want) and a reasonable power band in order to create the best gameplay experience possible (which we all should want). I can make this a living document- I will update it with new ideas and feedback.
Part 1: Guild Slot Structure
This Cube is pretty clearly going to be Enemy-Color (
In my Cube, I've been trying to nudge drafters into the three color "wedge" combinations(which are based in the enemy color pairs) without entirely invalidating Ally or Shard decks. The way I have achieved this is by using an asymmetric gold section. I do this by supporting all 10 guilds, but giving the Enemy colors a couple more gold cards than the Ally colors, as opposed to keeping everything symetric. The Cube is still color balanced, but the gold cards are weighted away from the Ally pairs. They're still draftable, but they're not going to seem as naturally "open" to drafters.
An asymmetric gold section might look like:
-5 Enemy Color gold cards per color pair.
-3 Ally Color gold cards per color pair.
-1 Gold card per Wedge
Now, for this Cube, depending on how far we want to go into the Wedge theme, we may want to do a structure that looks like:
-6 Enemy Color gold cards per color pair.
-3 Ally Color gold cards per color pair.
-2 Gold cards per Wedge
This seems like a good structure because it allows for plenty of cool gold cards across all colors, allowing all 2-color combinations to remain playable, while naturally skewing the draft towards the enemy color combinations. Remember that the Ally color cards aren't only for Ally color decks- Wedge decks can play them too! Whatever card we add to
Part 2: Draft Archetypes
Looking at the card pool so far, we seem to have the following archetypes forming. Bold archetypes are clear directions for the pair based on the current card list, Normal archetypes are suggested but not quire supported, and Itallicised archetypes are potential directions for the color combinations to be taken.
Enemy Colors
Ally Colors
Wedges
Again, these are loose and based purely on observations. These would be good directions to take what we have already started, but things could change going forward.
Part 3: Theater Playstyles
This cube appears to be stuck between two potential identities: it wants to be both a fast, tempo-oriented format, and a slow, grindy format. The easy answer to this question is to just choose both! We can build a format where most of the suggested cards are viable without having to sacrifice most of the efficient, context variable cards or the low-power synergy cards. The key to making this work will depend entirely on shaping our broad play patterns well.
Aggro
"True" aggro appears to be undesirable in the current version of this Cube, with most of the splashy cool cards costing in the 5-7 mana range. While this Cube doesn't look like it's retail limited power level, a lot of the top-end pieces are below Standard constructed power level and would probably be most at home at a Casual EDH table if they weren't in this Cube. A deck that is focusing on vomiting out a ton of 1 drops and then killing the opponent with Burn spells before turn 4 probably isn't going to fly in this Cube if we want to ensure the top end is still viable. I also feel that the community nature of this project will make it really difficult to reach the expected 9 or so one-mana spells we would want in a format running true aggro.
I think, given the current card pool, our best bet for aggro would be to split the ticket between a
Control
Control is going to have a difficult time being well-supported in this Cube without being oppressive. The problem is that we are going to want ways to defeat highly proactive strategies while not entirely invalidating slow, non-controlling decks. I still think we will need Board Wipes, Cantrips, and Counterspells to make Control strategies viable, however, I think we will need to choose our cards carefully. Personally, I think unique spells like Ritual of Soot, Sweltering Suns, and Languish can help to eliminate some of the low-to-the-ground decks that would otherwise ruin Control's day, but won't hurt the midrange synergy decks too badly outside of some of their frail early game value engines.
As for color combinations, I see control in this Cube being primarily based in
Combo
I don't see any true Combo decks appearing in this Cube unless someone goes off the deep end and tries to add Twin or Storm or something.
Midrange
Midrange is the bread and butter of this Cube, with virtually every currently supported Synergy deck falling into this Theater of Play. Basically every Midrange deck in this Cube is likely to be a Synergy deck, not focusing on raw value as much as it is focusing on trying to build an engine. I think we will need to temper the power level of our removal spells in order to make sure efficient spells like Path to Exile aren't ruining a Marionette Master player's day. More on this in the next section.
Part 4: Potential Additions to Mirror Apparent Play Patterns
Removal
Well-balanced removal is the difference between a good and a great limited environment. I think in this Cube, we will want to have three classes of removal: cheap things that kill small creatures, expensive things that kill all creatures, and inexpensive things that stop attacks but won't shut down abilities. This way, decks will have the tools they need to stop early threats like Tarmogoyf and Grim Flayer, without dunking too hard on higher-cost cards like Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and Lightning Angel. This will also help to prevent inevitable "Enchantment Baneslayers" like The Gitrog Monster from being invalidated by the removal required to keep the efficient cards in check.
Classed-Removal Examples
Cheap things that Kill Small Creatures
Expensive things that Kill all Creatures
Inexpensive things that Stop Attacks but won't Shut Down Abilities
Fills Several Categories
This section will be expanded in the future if more ideas arise.
Part 5: Potential Swaps
I think we're going to need to swap some cards at some point, but I'm going to reserve publicizing my swap thoughts until we add more to the Cube. I think we will need to chop some over and underpowered cards out of the final product, though.
Conclusion
Hopefully, you all like these ideas. Please provide feedback on this post. I think this is a good base to fill out the rest of the Cube with but these ideas are entirely based on my own thoughts and observations. Don't treat this as a final word or anything- I just want to try to make a plan for filling out the rest of the Cube list.
So I could suggest kataki, war's wage or Energy flux. To support single color I was thinking about Ankh of Mishra and for all the creatures with enter the battlefield I was thinking about Lifeline (more board stall...). However, the best thing I can do for the cube is let @TrainmasterGT pick a card for me, and then I tag @TrainmasterGT and @Jason Waddell
This is Twitch Plays Pokemon all over again. I also preferred the unstructured approach.
As context, we have done this experiment before:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/3-cards-at-a-time-cube-finished.772/
Not even once though, we have done it twice since:
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/youve-probably-never-heard-of-it-the-4-at-a-time-cube.783/
https://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/community-project-4-at-a-time-battlecruiser-cube.1267/page-6
The joy of these was to see what people added. Sure they might add stupid cards, but that was all part of the charm.
These were fun and and a good experiment and it is nice to see another one appear after quite a long absence.
I have the same feelings as Japahn and they boil down to the following points:
1. The lack of rules enforcement
There was a set of rules put out at the start, then a couple of people deviated claiming that it was still in the rules. I get that this is fun but when I follow the rules by putting one card in, then someone just puts in 6 random cards at once, it feels like my contribution was little and why bother adding anymore.
2. Suggested picks
I see where Train is coming from to try and make this a feasible cube, but it feels like you are trying to push us in your own direction rather then just letting people add what they want. Now I have self doubt in my mind, am I supposed to use one of my picks on one of these cards to make the cube what others want, or just throw another random card in there to spawn another archetype? Will I get backlash for doing so? I don't know. This is all too hard and I will just sit this out.
I am also confused as to when I can post a card? I've been tagged 3? times now I believe, and this is the first time I have been able to actually be the next card posted when my name is tagged.
Not trying to be a downer or anything, I really love these kind of things, it always brings the community together and we make some real... Let's say 'piles of cards'. I'm just echoing my concerns and how to possibly improve the experience. This might just be me and my anxiety talking though and may not relate to anyone else.
Since I'm also of the mind that one tag = one card, with the previously agreed exception of a land cycle, I'd say three tags = three cards Kirb. I don't think there's been any consistency that the tagged person needs to post directly after the tagger. People sleep and stuff. Understand if you don't want to still.
But yeah, Jason tagged me above and green is a bit low, so I am going to add a penny pincher classic
@Chriskool
@PyreDream
@Chriskool
@PyreDream
Yeah, same here.
I know you mean well, Trainmaster, but please just chill and enjoy the chaos.
Nobody has added Chromatic Star, I'm dissapointed on you.
Also, I want that janky counters build-around and some black cards. So.
@James Stevenson
@Sheltem
Also, I want that janky counters build-around and some black cards. So.
@James Stevenson
@Sheltem
haha, i like this notion of advertising what you’ll bring to the cube, this is very gig economy, good stuff
@ me for nonblue cantrips, wishes, and tutors
@ me for nonblue cantrips, wishes, and tutors
@me for cards that don't take the entire cube into account at all.
Thanks Erik Twice!
Part of me wants to add a Herald of Anguish, but I'll go for something jankier...
I call forth the power of:
@blacksmithy and @LadyMapi
Part of me wants to add a Herald of Anguish, but I'll go for something jankier...
I call forth the power of:
@blacksmithy and @LadyMapi
Done. Thanks!
Can you please link at the top of this thread and see if it works?
Laz
Developer
Hmm... now we are light in Green, but given where the cube is going, I might need to stretch the definition of Green a little.
Also, @TrainmasterGT you should probably shape things a bit - you do have all of the vision! Also, Hey! @Heymaker
Edit: Populate doesn't work on Treasures/Clues, etc! Scam!
Also, @TrainmasterGT you should probably shape things a bit - you do have all of the vision! Also, Hey! @Heymaker
Edit: Populate doesn't work on Treasures/Clues, etc! Scam!
