General (WHO) Dr. Who Spoilers
- Thread starter TrainmasterGT
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I was going on memory, but it is clear I should have double-checked this. Sorry for the confusion!
This is fun!
I am really disappointed by this set so far. Some of the Sagas have been fine, but man, have they been doing the Doctors dirty.
It's really frustrating when they make a set that's conceptually exactly for you but then make it so none of the cards fit that category.
It's really frustrating when they make a set that's conceptually exactly for you but then make it so none of the cards fit that category.
I have to wonder what part of it was conceptually exactly for you.
I'm pretty into sagas and suspend and in that respect it's a bit lackluster, but I've kind of come to expect that from most releases that I'll probably get at most 2 cards of a given theme I'm interested in.
I didn't think too much about this card at first, but if you have enough time, it's a 3 drop that both cantrips and cheats mana. Once again an issue with reminder text though.
I'm pretty into sagas and suspend and in that respect it's a bit lackluster, but I've kind of come to expect that from most releases that I'll probably get at most 2 cards of a given theme I'm interested in.
Given that I've already posted the most relevant rule, I really don't know how how to explain it any further. A card with no time counters on it is not considered to be suspended, and that's really the end of it. Everything else is just me dropping clues as to why that would be the case. (Not to argue that Suspend is a clean mechanic, but that aspect of it is quite sensible.)
I didn't think too much about this card at first, but if you have enough time, it's a 3 drop that both cantrips and cheats mana. Once again an issue with reminder text though.
Some of these cards are cool but oh golly are there a lot of words on them
@Mown
I think I have found the reason for the confusion.
This is what @LadyMapi asked
Notice that this question doesn’t mention that any of the cards has suspend. It mentions the mana value.
Later I write this
To this you reply
So there it is. This made me confused because we are not talking about cards that have suspend. So why would that clause be relevant when the cards don’t have suspend?
Now allow me to move on. There is a rule in Magic 104.3a
It states that card text overrule the rule book.
“Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time.”
I thought this meant that the card could give suspend to spell that wouldn’t normally have it. This is why I thought The Wedding of River Song could give suspend to a card that would not normally be able to have it because the card text overrules the basic suspend rules.
Am I wrong?
I think I have found the reason for the confusion.
This is what @LadyMapi asked
Notice that this question doesn’t mention that any of the cards has suspend. It mentions the mana value.
Later I write this
To this you reply
So there it is. This made me confused because we are not talking about cards that have suspend. So why would that clause be relevant when the cards don’t have suspend?
Now allow me to move on. There is a rule in Magic 104.3a
It states that card text overrule the rule book.
“Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time.”
I thought this meant that the card could give suspend to spell that wouldn’t normally have it. This is why I thought The Wedding of River Song could give suspend to a card that would not normally be able to have it because the card text overrules the basic suspend rules.
Am I wrong?
I am liking this Saga. Kind of a cantrip, can trigger Heroic, Constellation and Prowess repetitively and some potential artifact shenanigans. The 0 life clause is annoying distraction, but it's still pretty easy to grasp.
That's a lot of versatility on a Cancel variant. The other two modes won't be relevant very often, but that is exactly the type of modes I like on an otherwise bread and butter effect. Leads to cool moments and lets the drafter get creative.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
No, you're not wrong, you can give a spell without suspend suspend with The Wedding of River Song. What we both missed is that if you suspend a card with 0 time counters on it, it stops being suspended. In this particular case though, I wonder if the Time Travel effect can resolve and add a time counter to the suspended mv 0 card before state based actions are checked and the spell stops being suspended.
I'm sorry for creating such absolute chaos in this thread. 
Yeah, I'm on the "some of these designs are super cool, but the rest... are there?" train.
That said...
I've been enjoying the Foretell cards, at the very least? It's a mechanic that I don't think got the focus it deserved in Kaldheim, so I'm glad to see it again.
Yeah, I'm on the "some of these designs are super cool, but the rest... are there?" train.
That said...
I've been enjoying the Foretell cards, at the very least? It's a mechanic that I don't think got the focus it deserved in Kaldheim, so I'm glad to see it again.
Yeah I'm a little surprised that they went with so many text-heavy and complex mechanics for a set that will probably be played by a lot of new players
If my experience with custom magic is anything to go for, it's because they're being lazy.
It takes way less effort to slap together something overly cute, wordy, and complex than it does to make something streamlined and elegant.
so far i think the van gogh card is actually my favorite card of the set. great art and it's a "free" draw 3 on a turn when you can make good use of drawing 3
I'm a really big Dr. Who fan, so a set with all of my favorite characters from that show which doesn't have to worry about balancing limited or any constructed format other than literal Legacy should have been a slam dunk. But of course, they had to give most of my favorite characters bad cards. Not cool, WOTC!
I think you're 100% correct here. I realized that the reason why I didn't like most of the cards (but specifically the legendary characters) isn't just because the power level isn't quite there but because the actual flavor is almost non-existent for a lot of these cards. My favorite Legendary card spoiled so far is Rory Williams:
I don't think this card is very good in its current state (waiting until turn 5 to attack with a Watchwolf is ), but the design is top-notch. It does a great job of illustrating The Last Centurion's story in a way that is actually interesting for gameplay purposes. You play Rory, he spends a few centuries guarding the Pandorica (in this case represented by the Clue token), and then he re-joins the fight when the Pandorica finally opens. Plus, if you have Amy Pond (spoiler: the person he's guarding), Rory can actually end his watch earlier since she's already out. The card is dripping with flavor. The design is so good that I think this card would have been awesome if it just didn't stay suspended for so long, and honestly, given the context of his interaction with Amy, it makes sense despite the fact that it severely limits his power level.
By contrast, a lot of the other cards aren't nearly that flavorful. What about The Eleventh Doctor actually exemplifies the character? I guess giving something suspend kind of feels like some of the time stream-breaking shenanigans from the earlier portion of his run, but it doesn't really tell a story in the same way Rory does. And it doesn't even do anything that good. If you suspend something, you have to wait several turns before you get to play it unless it has a very low mana value... in which case, why are you going through the effort? I guess you might be able to Time Travel, but most of the cards that do that are also not very good. Eleven honestly feels like a Fearless Halberdier doing its best Passwall Adept impression with some random suspend trinket text to make it feel rare. This is a recurring theme for most of the creature cards in the set. For example, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship just kind of... exists. In the episode, these Dinosaurs have been on the ship since the end of the Cretaceous period, waiting to be discovered by the doctor and his friends. In this card, you either hard cast them on turn six or suspend them on turn five... at which point they start pooping out Pterosaurs? Why? I get there were Pterosaurs in the episode, but it's not like they escaped the ship or anything like the flavor of the card implies. Unironically, a version of this card that more closely matches the original episode would either eschew the Pterosaur trigger altogether and simply have a cheap suspend cost or would have a smaller initial body and make the tokens on ETB. I'm aware that just makes the card either slightly better Kjeldoran Halberder or a side-grade to Riders of Rohan, but honestly, I think both would have fit the story better.
The thing is, WOTC has proven recently that they know how to make Universes Beyond cards that match the characters or story they are trying to emulate. Think about the Lord of the Rings set. There were so many designs that felt like something straight out of the books. Andúril, Flame of the West? Your creature uses the blade to help enlist the Grey Host. Arwen, Mortal Queen? Arwen gives up her immortality to be with the person she loves, strengthening them both in the process. Flame of Anor? Peregrin Took? Second Breakfast. Stern Scolding? Stopping Peregrin Took (and all of his other variants, for that matter) from being an idiot. Even very simple cards can tell a good story. But even barring that, there are still plenty of cards that are just good game pieces beyond their role as story spotlights. Samwise Gamgee is a great example of this. Sure, he kind of plays into the food stuff that Sam is often involved with, and given some of the deeper lore, his ability to recur Historic cards can kind of be seen as a character reference. But that doesn't matter too much for Sam: his card is just good. It's a fun game piece to play with, even though it doesn't perfectly encapsulate the character in the same way as some of the aforementioned cards. A lot of the Dr. Who cards fail on both of these metrics. Sure, some of the Sagas are pretty powerful or flavorful, and so are some of the instants and sorceries, but the Doctors and most of his companions really aren't. I think Rory is the only companion card of the bunch that even comes close to some of the cards mentioned above (and he's not even technically a companion by game logic).
The thing is, good UB design isn't limited to LOTR. Welcome to Jurassic Park is a great representation of the first film of its franchise. Even though it's not that powerful, it excels at being a compelling card thanks to its creative design and good abilities. Although not quite as perfect, the Indominus Rex still feels like a hybrid monster dinosaur like it does in the movie. WOTC can clearly take characters from other IPs and make cool, fun, and playable cards. Why is Dr. Who getting the short end of the stick?
I wonder if it's the "commander" portion of the equation. The Warhammer 40K decks were also pretty disappointing in their legendary creature department. Sure, they had some cool designs, but outside of Be'lakor, the Dark Master, most of them were pretty mediocre. I'm not as familiar with the 40K lore as I am with Dr. Who, LOTR, or Jurassic Park, but I am under the impression that the legends also suffered from the same lack of flavor issue. I haven't liked to blame Commander for everything as I have gotten older, but I think that may be the culprit in this case.
Anyway, to end on a positive note, I really freaking like Rory Williams. I don't like doing Eratta, but I think modifying him to only suspend for a turn (and renaming him Rory, the Last Centurion) would make this card incredibly fun to play with. The design is phenomenal.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I get your disappointment, but I don’t know that this particular example holds op well. 40k was very much loved by my local EDH group (which currently sits at 113 people), and on Scryfall it’s number 12 when you sort the legendary creatures from 40k by EDHREC rank. However, it is the second most popular commander from the set, just squeaking into the top 100 most popular commanders of the past two years at #100. The most popular is Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph, who breaks the top 50 even! Magus Alice’s Kane and Marneus Calgar are close behind Be’lakor though, at #108 and #115 respectively. Thing is, these are Commander sets, and the needs and wants of Commander players just don’t line up really well with those of Cube curators.
You're totally correct in saying that some of the 40k cards are popular as commanders, but I don't think that's incompatible with anything I said. After all, the fifth most popular commander of the past two years, according to EDHrec is Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver. Wilhelt is not a terrible card by any means, but when you consider the fact that he's beating powerhouses like Edgar Markov, Korvold, Fae Cursed King, and Omnath, Locus of Creation, I think that is a pretty strong indicator that Commander players don't necessarily care as much about power level so much as they just want cards with fun text or abilities. Wilhelt isn't an outlier here, either, as there are some other cards like Lathril, Blade of the Elves, and Isshin, Two Heavens as One that are similarly high on the list (granted I think Lathril is actually pretty good in the context of four players and limited spot removal from what I've seen, but she's objectively less powerful on her own than many of the cards around her). I think Legendary Creatures can be popular as commanders so long as they are cool. In that case, why not make them good, too?
I forgot to mention this card earlier. I think this card is super interesting in game object.deck and potentially even prowess builds (since it effectively "regenerates" itself every couple of turns). My only concern is that it's really mana-intensive and is in tight competition for breathing space with the other Izzet cards. Cool design, though!
I am liking this Saga. Kind of a cantrip, can trigger Heroic, Constellation and Prowess repetitively and some potential artifact shenanigans. The 0 life clause is annoying distraction, but it's still pretty easy to grasp.
I don’t think I missed that. Lady asked a question and I believe I gave the correct answer. The spell will just sit in exile and nothing happens unless something else happens which in this case could be time travel but that is up to the player.
Then @Mown came along and said time travel doesn’t work because the card isn’t suspended which I disputed by mentioning that the card gives it suspend. Mown replies back that this is not what happens without giving an explanation to why so I ask for one. Mown replied with the suspend rule and I finally understood the confusion.
I am pretty sure rule 104.3a overrules the suspend rule so you can use the wedding and cast the spells if you decide to time travel.
As to your question about state based effects.
State based effects shouldn’t matter here since the time travel ability is on the same card. It will not get checked until the card is fully done being resolved. Same thing with dealing 3 damage to a Tarmogoyf with a Lightning Bolt. First the spell goes to the graveyard and then the damage is checked. This is relevant in the case that Tarmogoyf has 3 toughness as the player cast the Bolt and currently no instants are in graveyard.
It's not a state based action, it's simply the definition of what it means to be suspended, which the 0mv card at no point qualifies for.
Are you just ignoring that the context in which I made that statement was after you wrote "they don't have suspend" to my example about exiling cards that already have suspend inherently? I'm raising a question when that clause would ever be relevant, if according to you, cards like Rift Bolt don't have suspend. (And if you concede that they do have suspend, why can't I do what I outlined in my example.)
Why would there be a rule specifying that a card is suspended if it both has suspend and a time counter, if a card simply having suspend overruled it. It would literally never apply. Having suspend and being suspended is not the same thing.
Emphatically yes.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Because better commanders don't necessarily make for more fun Commander games and because it's easier to create a wide variety of Commanders at a lower power band. Like I said, the needs and wants of Commander don't really align with those of other formats, particularly Cube (unless you run a Commander Cube, obviously).
I know, and I'm not saying the card is suspended, plus the rule you quoted certainly defines it is not, I was just wondering if this is an exception because the game doesn't check the game state continuously and in those cases an illegal game state can shortly exist and sort itself out before the game catches on. Like, the exiled card does gains suspend, so I could imagine a rules loop where it is technically suspended for a hot second, a second long enough to add a time counter and keep suspend once The Wedding of River Song resolves. I can also imagine a rules loop where it is never considered suspended so you can not add the time counter. And yes, I get that you are firmly in the second camp, and that not even your little toe is thinking about touching the first. It is very probable that the rules document accompanying the release will back you up, and I eagerly await WotC's final ruling on the matter.
This thread makes me happy about the "NOTES AND RULES INFORMATION" section on scryfall when you search for cards. Hoping that these dr who suspend cards will get some clarifications there.
I will be more than happy to be wrong when Wizards and Scryfall finally release the official answer.
For now I do not see the suspend rule overrule the card text. The card gains suspend. Then it will maybe lose it again due to the suspend rule unless we can time travel first. It's interesting
For now I do not see the suspend rule overrule the card text. The card gains suspend. Then it will maybe lose it again due to the suspend rule unless we can time travel first. It's interesting
Dom Harvey
Contributor
very big fish, UR gets its broken finisher (not quite Forth Eorlingas/Minsc & Boo level but pretty absurd and one of the best Reanimation/Sneak payoffs)
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I'm sure living end and rhino players would appreciate your proposed interaction at least.
I don't feel like you're trying very hard to engage with what I'm saying here, but to be clear, the card doesn't lose the ability suspend, nor have I suggested it did. I'm drawing a distinction between a card having suspend and being suspended. Kind of like how a creature on the battlefield can have the ability mutate, and not be mutated, which requires an additional set of conditions. If you somehow added a time counter to a card exiled with Wedding, it would become suspended, but time travel requires that the cards are suspended already to do so.For now I do not see the suspend rule overrule the card text. The card gains suspend. Then it will maybe lose it again due to the suspend rule unless we can time travel first. It's interesting
Regardless, I don't think I can be more thorough at this point and I'm starting to repeat myself so I think I'll leave it at that.
The fish might be a good reanimation target, not being legendary gives it some value with persist. I would probably rate it pretty low as a sneak target, as it doesn't benefit from haste. Certainly no archon, griselbrand or eldrazi titan. If the clues were untapped on the other hand.