my uneducated opinion is that the treasure creation and the discard are part of the same ability resolving therefore when you would choose to pay for madness, you have the treasure out
Sets (WOE) Wilds of Eldraine Testing/Includes Thread
- Thread starter TrainmasterGT
- Start date
Madness is weird. It used to be even weirder*! But it's still weird. So basically, you resolve all of the stuff that happens when you activate the Vault, and then the Madness triggered ability goes on the stack (the card is now in exile), and then it resolves and you get the choice to cast it (you have the treasure cause Vault's all done by now).
Speaking of casting stuff from exile:
Wow is this one ever strong in WOE limited. If you have any creatures-cast-from-exile subthemes (madness, adventures, cascade, suspend, and flickering off the top of my head) you have the ability to just run it out there for 2 and start cantripping. Also, sometimes you get to 6 and exile their board and also get to draw at least one card as they slooowly recast it.
*edit: for historical interest, even though we're all collectively very old we may not remember that 2002 madness had two weird nuances to it:
It used to be "When you discard this card, you may exile it. If you do, you can cast it until the next time you pass priority."
So you had two loopholes:
1) if you discard it on your own main phase, you can play a land because that involves zero priority passing. So you can loot with UU untapped, draw a Forest, discard an Arrogant Wurm with UU open, play the Forest and cast it.
2) if you discard Circular Logic on your opponent's main phase (say, to Compulsion), you now have a Logic hanging out that you can cast until the next time you pass priority. Which, since you're not the active player, won't happen until they pass priority to you. Which means that if they want to cast anything else during this main phase, that something else has to run into this Logic that you have face-up, in exile, staring at them. No choice. That or they know about this, and they do whatever provoked you into discarding in main phase one, and go through combat Mana Drain style to use the second main phase to get past that Logic. But it did come up.
So you had two loopholes:
1) if you discard it on your own main phase, you can play a land because that involves zero priority passing. So you can loot with UU untapped, draw a Forest, discard an Arrogant Wurm with UU open, play the Forest and cast it.
2) if you discard Circular Logic on your opponent's main phase (say, to Compulsion), you now have a Logic hanging out that you can cast until the next time you pass priority. Which, since you're not the active player, won't happen until they pass priority to you. Which means that if they want to cast anything else during this main phase, that something else has to run into this Logic that you have face-up, in exile, staring at them. No choice. That or they know about this, and they do whatever provoked you into discarding in main phase one, and go through combat Mana Drain style to use the second main phase to get past that Logic. But it did come up.
Last edited:
If someone was to proxy Collector's Vault and reword it so it says "create a treasure" first and then "loot", would that make any rules difference?
That way, players would have it easier to understand that you can use the treasure for madness, I assume.
That way, players would have it easier to understand that you can use the treasure for madness, I assume.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
See this is my kinda bullshitMadness is weird. It used to be even weirder*! But it's still weird. So basically, you resolve all of the stuff that happens when you activate the Vault, and then the Madness triggered ability goes on the stack (the card is now in exile), and then it resolves and you get the choice to cast it (you have the treasure cause Vault's all done by now).
Speaking of casting stuff from exile:
Wow is this one ever strong in WOE limited. If you have any creatures-cast-from-exile subthemes (madness, adventures, cascade, suspend, and flickering off the top of my head) you have the ability to just run it out there for 2 and start cantripping. Also, sometimes you get to 6 and exile their board and also get to draw at least one card as they slooowly recast it.
*edit: for historical interest, even though we're all collectively very old we may not remember that 2002 madness had two weird nuances to it:
It used to be "When you discard this card, you may exile it. If you do, you can cast it until the next time you pass priority."
So you had two loopholes:
1) if you discard it on your own main phase, you can play a land because that involves zero priority passing. So you can loot with UU untapped, draw a Forest, discard an Arrogant Wurm with UU open, play the Forest and cast it.
2) if you discard Circular Logic on your opponent's main phase (say, to Compulsion), you now have a Logic hanging out that you can cast until the next time you pass priority. Which, since you're not the active player, won't happen until they pass priority to you. Which means that if they want to cast anything else during this main phase, that something else has to run into this Logic that you have face-up, in exile, staring at them. No choice. That or they know about this, and they do whatever provoked you into discarding in main phase one, and go through combat Mana Drain style to use the second main phase to get past that Logic. But it did come up.
Not the existence of these insane angle shooting ways we dealt with madness in the past, but the fact people know and document it
Yes, but I don't know what card interactions would actually make it relevant in practice. Some sort of metalcraft effect that modifies card draw or similar.
Played WOE limited at FNM for the first time (Didn't go to prerelease), and was absolutely floored by Goddric. I had a clean run, didn't drop a game, and Goddric was a big part of that. So was Kellan to be fair, but Kellan just scared people; Goddric was the one killing 'em.
Like, he reads well, obvious draft bomb is obvious draft bomb and all - but I was triggering Celebration every single turn. Return Triumphant pulled a lot of weight there, obvious synergy is obvious synergy, but I'm still going to give him a shot in my cube. The number of 1/1 goblins that Rabblemaster variants just throw all over the place, not to mention all the trinket tokens that cards make now, make me pretty confident in him doing work.
Like, he reads well, obvious draft bomb is obvious draft bomb and all - but I was triggering Celebration every single turn. Return Triumphant pulled a lot of weight there, obvious synergy is obvious synergy, but I'm still going to give him a shot in my cube. The number of 1/1 goblins that Rabblemaster variants just throw all over the place, not to mention all the trinket tokens that cards make now, make me pretty confident in him doing work.
Turns out that a card that basically boils down to a 4/4 haste-y flyer with fire-breathing for is pretty darn good. Who knew?
(I didn't! I basically brushed over Goddric).
...
Come to think of it... Celebration is awfully easy to trigger, huh? I think I'm going to have to take another look...
is pretty darn good. Who knew?(I didn't! I basically brushed over Goddric).
...
Come to think of it... Celebration is awfully easy to trigger, huh? I think I'm going to have to take another look...
Ugh, my brain was doing a thing where I skipped over the word "non-land" - it does that sometimes.
Honestly I thought she was just talking about how easy it can be thanks to all of the cards in WOE limited that make two permanents for the price of one. There are a bunch of cards that ETB to make a creature token, make a food, and make a role, coupled with good ‘ol fashion token spells that it’s not too hard to have a celebration when it matters. Plus most of the cards are pretty good for what they are in the context of the draft environment.
I think that speaks to how well designed Wilds of Eldraine is proving to be more than anything else.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I made the same mistake all through spoiler season
I though the adventure for Spellscorn Coven cost
for the entirety of spoiler season, I only realized it was different like a week after prerelease lol.yeah i think celebration IS easy to trigger in woe retail
tbf it should cost 1 less on both halvesI though the adventure for Spellscorn Coven cost
Yeah this card would be sweet if both halves cost less.
limited is great, i just need my limited cards to be legacy or vintage level
this set does honestly seem REALLY good. there are a ton of great card designs that can go into so many cubes. i think i could run like half a dozen in my own cube unbuffed and theyd be fun and fine.
this set does honestly seem REALLY good. there are a ton of great card designs that can go into so many cubes. i think i could run like half a dozen in my own cube unbuffed and theyd be fun and fine.
My favorite card of the set is probably
It ties together a lot of different themes, namely ETB, sacrifice, lifegain and artifacts. The easiest way to abuse Brenard is to pair it alongside ETB creatures and a sacrifice outlet. But the great thing is that it works through combat too, making it easy to trigger. It gives a counterpoint to the Rakdos color pair which is more often associated with the sacrifice archetype and helps your otherwise narrow sacrifice outlets be more broadly applicable.
Which means that if you want this to work for you, I would highly recommend at least 2 or 3 colorless sacrifice outlets like Spawning Pit and Altar of Dementia so you don't have to splash a fourth color.
There is a tribal element to the card, but since the Brenard himself creates those tokens, I don't think it's a trap. That being said, you can go deep!
Get a Pod deck going
Double/copy your token
Self-sacrificing cards
You get the point, tons to do and ways to mix and match everything.
There are a few downsides to this card.
1. It's 3 colors. That won't fly in some cubes, but I like having a powerful reward for going into more colors that allows you to get creative and do things those colors usually can't do.
2. It's a 3/3 for 4 mana that doesn't affect the board. You can mitigate that by having a sacrifice outlet on hand before you cast Brenard, but you definitely are opening yourself up to a timely removal spell. For that reason, it won't work for my 1 vs 1 cube, but it will be right at home in my MP cube.
3. It exiles the card. Green has good recursion, which can sometimes clash with the ability. Thankfully it's a "may" so you can chose when it's the right time to exile or not.
4. Gameplay wise, it gets really tough to race. Each blocker of yours that dies comes back as a 3/3 that can then be sacrificed for 3 life. You need to remove Brenard or find evasive beaters if you want to win.
Have any of you played with or against it yet?
It ties together a lot of different themes, namely ETB, sacrifice, lifegain and artifacts. The easiest way to abuse Brenard is to pair it alongside ETB creatures and a sacrifice outlet. But the great thing is that it works through combat too, making it easy to trigger. It gives a counterpoint to the Rakdos color pair which is more often associated with the sacrifice archetype and helps your otherwise narrow sacrifice outlets be more broadly applicable.
Which means that if you want this to work for you, I would highly recommend at least 2 or 3 colorless sacrifice outlets like Spawning Pit and Altar of Dementia so you don't have to splash a fourth color.
There is a tribal element to the card, but since the Brenard himself creates those tokens, I don't think it's a trap. That being said, you can go deep!
Golem tribal
Artifact golems
Golem/food aggro
Incidental golems
Artifact golems
Golem/food aggro
Incidental golems
Get a Pod deck going
Double/copy your token
Self-sacrificing cards
You get the point, tons to do and ways to mix and match everything.
There are a few downsides to this card.
1. It's 3 colors. That won't fly in some cubes, but I like having a powerful reward for going into more colors that allows you to get creative and do things those colors usually can't do.
2. It's a 3/3 for 4 mana that doesn't affect the board. You can mitigate that by having a sacrifice outlet on hand before you cast Brenard, but you definitely are opening yourself up to a timely removal spell. For that reason, it won't work for my 1 vs 1 cube, but it will be right at home in my MP cube.
3. It exiles the card. Green has good recursion, which can sometimes clash with the ability. Thankfully it's a "may" so you can chose when it's the right time to exile or not.
4. Gameplay wise, it gets really tough to race. Each blocker of yours that dies comes back as a 3/3 that can then be sacrificed for 3 life. You need to remove Brenard or find evasive beaters if you want to win.
Have any of you played with or against it yet?
You guys are nuts, seriously.
I mean, this is "eh, Vintage could have better mana" blacksmithy we're talking about... ;p
I mean, lots of cards are good in limited that don’t do much anywhere else. Like, Triplicate Spirits was a top card in M15 draft, yet it was never seriously played in constructed. I think it’s ok to want a card to be pushed a little more if you’re hoping to use it in a different context.You guys are nuts, seriously.
This card is very good even when you don't have the blue in limited.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Also are we seriously at the point where 2/3 flier discard a card is good in limited?
This card (without blue) seems like marginally better virus beetle, like sometimes fliers are better but sometimes you need 2 drops and you don't have room for 4s, I could see this going either way
Like I don't remember this making any waves in its limited format:
This card (without blue) seems like marginally better virus beetle, like sometimes fliers are better but sometimes you need 2 drops and you don't have room for 4s, I could see this going either way
Like I don't remember this making any waves in its limited format:
I didn't say it was making huge waves there, but almost every black drafter I see plays it even when they don't have access to blue, and rightfully so. Virus Beetle and other Ravenous Rats versions have been really good too, and that holds true for the last 20 years of limited at least. This one has the same card advantage attached to a body that is actually combat relevant and can trade. It's
Soo, I don't get your "are we at this point", since limited is probably more powerful than it has ever been. These days we get good creatures and good removal and have very, very little unplayable garbage in our packs.
Of course it's okay, I was just saying, that from a limited players perspective, asking this to be straight up Remand with a 2/3 flier for 2B, including immediate card advantage, attached to it, seems really crazy. That's a level that we get at rare today, and even there I would, personally, prefer more tame designs.
Soo, I don't get your "are we at this point", since limited is probably more powerful than it has ever been. These days we get good creatures and good removal and have very, very little unplayable garbage in our packs.
Of course it's okay, I was just saying, that from a limited players perspective, asking this to be straight up Remand with a 2/3 flier for 2B, including immediate card advantage, attached to it, seems really crazy. That's a level that we get at rare today, and even there I would, personally, prefer more tame designs.
My favorite card of the set is probably
It ties together a lot of different themes, namely ETB, sacrifice, lifegain and artifacts. The easiest way to abuse Brenard is to pair it alongside ETB creatures and a sacrifice outlet. But the great thing is that it works through combat too, making it easy to trigger. It gives a counterpoint to the Rakdos color pair which is more often associated with the sacrifice archetype and helps your otherwise narrow sacrifice outlets be more broadly applicable.
Which means that if you want this to work for you, I would highly recommend at least 2 or 3 colorless sacrifice outlets like Spawning Pit and Altar of Dementia so you don't have to splash a fourth color.
...
1. It's 3 colors. That won't fly in some cubes, but I like having a powerful reward for going into more colors that allows you to get creative and do things those colors usually can't do.
2. It's a 3/3 for 4 mana that doesn't affect the board. You can mitigate that by having a sacrifice outlet on hand before you cast Brenard, but you definitely are opening yourself up to a timely removal spell. For that reason, it won't work for my 1 vs 1 cube, but it will be right at home in my MP cube.
3. It exiles the card. Green has good recursion, which can sometimes clash with the ability. Thankfully it's a "may" so you can chose when it's the right time to exile or not.
4. Gameplay wise, it gets really tough to race. Each blocker of yours that dies comes back as a 3/3 that can then be sacrificed for 3 life. You need to remove Brenard or find evasive beaters if you want to win.
Have any of you played with or against it yet?
As someone who runs at least one card for every 3-color combo (because my cube is 720 cards and therefore I can/must), I'm eager for a better Bant card. I'm currently on Shanna, Purifying Blade, and I was excited about Brenard when he was first spoiled, but then I realized he's essentially just a harder-to-cast Luminous Broodmoth. I think you make some great arguments here, but I'm with you that it's a bit too durdly on its own for a 1v1-focused cube. Appreciate you sharing though!