General [ZNR] Zendikar Rising Spoilers

[Onderzeeboot]

I think you're right for the blue Wizard. The black Rogue and red Minotaur I'm skeptical of, as the black card is much smaller and fewer red decks are desperate for lands. I'll make an edit to the blue one.

I think the black rogue is very environment dependent. A 2/3 menace for 2B or a land is already a reasonable offer, but if you can reliably trigger the condition, you're looking at a 5/3 menace for 2B, that's brutal! So, in environments that have a heavy graveyard or mill component, I think the black rogue is absolutely 100% cubeable.

The red one, yeah... not so much. Though... it does have 5 toughness, which is a magical number in Wildfire formats! A deck, coincidentally, that also doesn't mind playing an extra land that doubles as a resilient threat.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

You know what, I've been thinking it over, and I think these creature lands are even better than I'm giving them credit for. The thing is, you run these instead of a basic land. So in exchange for running one more tapped mana source, you get potentially an extra spell. Would you replace one of your regular 23 cards with a 6 mana 4/5 trample? Of course not! That's hideously underpowered! Now how about replacing one of your Mountains with one that etb tapped, but can turn into a 6 mana 4/5 trample when you're flooding? Doesn't cost you anything other than an untapped mana source, you can still play those other 23 cards that actually do something, but all of a sudden one of your lands also does actually do something. Your increasing the number of business spells without decreasing the number of land drops you can make. That's wild! I don't think our brains are wired for this kind of perspective, because you're instinctively looking at the front side and thinking: "Well, that's underwhelming!" But instead we should be looking at how little it costs to add these to your deck!

 

[blacksmithy]

I want to echo Jericho’s sentiment that you can just double or triple up on the Bx bouncelands to maintain your environment. That sounds heckin cool.

Also agree with Onder about how to evaluate these land DFC’s. They are so efficient for your deck construction needs!

 

[Brad]

The vast majority of these imposter land cards don't quite get there in most cubes. I'd say the only one that interests me is the Landfall Elephant, but even then it's mostly as just a beater to push through damage. In a lower powered format utilizing bouncelands however? I think these are incredible for that kind of environment if board development is slow enough.

I think the Force Spike and kind-of-Impulse are really good in land-hungry blue control decks. The viability for these definitely gets narrower as the power level goes up and Elephant is, as I said, the all star of the crew.

Brad you might be able to have your cake and eat it: with as much black as your cube already has you could probably run mostly the black-aligned bouncelands with non-black MDFCs and still have a sweet (skewed color) environment.

This is probably true, but my bigger concern is that my power level is too high to wait for bounceland style value like this while I run a dozen additional ETB tapped lands. I had an old format that was a lot slower, very land-centric that these look like they were made for. I was an inexperienced designer when I had that format and can see some of why it felt wrong, looking back.

You know what, I've been thinking it over, and I think these creature lands are even better than I'm giving them credit for . . . We should be looking at how little it costs to add these to your deck!

You might be right. I do think that entering tapped is a real cost. There's a reason untapped duals routinely cost $10 or so for their stint in standard. As bad as WotC's quality testing has been the last few years, I'm going to assume that these were properly placed at uncommon and that's reflective of their value. How many tapped lands in your deck is too many?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

How many tapped lands in your deck is too many?

https://blog.cardkingdom.com/playing-tap-lands-in-aggro-decks/

Of course there's a limit to how many taplands you can reasonably run, which is why I'm a big proponent of aggro-friendly duals. If you run fastlands and shocks, you have some room for these fantastic mdfc's. If your environment runs checklands and scrylands, things look a lot less inviting for additional taplands in aggressive decks. Slower decks can often better accommodate additional taplands, so if you already run a lot of untapped duals because of your aggro support, then those decks will have no problem incorporating a few mdfc's.

While we're on the topic, those dfc duals from Zendikar Rising are incredible! Untapped color fixing! Get in my cube! And MaRo confirmed the missing four will be printed in the next big set, so for once they're completing the full cycle! That's a lot of exclamation marks, but it's worth it, these lands are amazing!

 

[ravnic]

You got a ton of useful landfall cards that are .

They might not have the word "landfall" spelled out on them, but these cards are insanely good in a "landfall with a bounce lands to hand theme" deck like you have designed. The ability for a landfall player to have both 20 Lands and 25 Spells at the same time seems extremely strong to me. The contributions these cards will make to landfall maybe aren't as blunt as one may like, but their impact on the archetype is pretty huge.

Oh god, you kinda made my day, and I am ashamed to say so. I mean I knew these cards are neat with bounce lands, but I somehow was so focused on getting a blue landfall card, I didn't think of other possible synergies for that theme in blue.

Thanks gor showing me the obvious, I'm definitely going to run a few of those!

 

[sigh]

I didn't even think about the bounceland interaction with the land-spell DFCs, and man... that is a strong interaction.

 

[Velrun]

You know what, I've been thinking it over, and I think these creature lands are even better than I'm giving them credit for. The thing is, you run these instead of a basic land. So in exchange for running one more tapped mana source, you get potentially an extra spell. Would you replace one of your regular 23 cards with a 6 mana 4/5 trample? Of course not! That's hideously underpowered! Now how about replacing one of your Mountains with one that etb tapped, but can turn into a 6 mana 4/5 trample when you're flooding? Doesn't cost you anything other than an untapped mana source, you can still play those other 23 cards that actually do something, but all of a sudden one of your lands also does actually do something. Your increasing the number of business spells without decreasing the number of land drops you can make. That's wild! I don't think our brains are wired for this kind of perspective, because you're instinctively looking at the front side and thinking: "Well, that's underwhelming!" But instead we should be looking at how little it costs to add these to your deck!

This will cost you more games than it wins you.

I have played the game mega competitively for many years (Invasion -> Battle for Zendikar) and I know for a fact that it is a severe downgrade to change a land into the same land that ETB tapped. The fact that it isn’t Basic almost never matters but tapped is damaging to your win rate.

For some of these the upside outvalues the downside but the red beast is a limited card. This means your cube has to be super low powered to want this one. I might want one for my starter cards

I debate internally for about 15 minutes if I should write this or not. I decided to do it but I know it might spike someone. I am a goofy casual player now who cares more about creating a fun environment for others than about winning for myself. This is why cube creator is the perfect role for me.

 

[Nanonox]

I think these DFC are extremely powerful just because you essentially have an extra spell slot at the cost of having one of your lands ETB tapped. Depending on environment, that can be more or less impactful, but overall, I think these are very positive as a way to mitigate variance in games of magic at a fair cost.

These cards will probably have a very high main deck percentage since they go in the land slot and aren't competing with your other 23 cards. However, where I tend to be more hesitant is in regards to cube space. Even though it might be objectively right to run a high amount of these just because of how good they are (once again, spell in a land slot!), some of these just aren't exciting enough for cube IMO.

All of the mythic ones are especially powerful since they have the option of being untapped lands. The effects are splashy as well, so they get an include for me. Here are the others that I think are worth a slot as they are good at any point in the game and have a powerful effect at a minimal cost (ETB land or a small mana tax on the spell end).

These ones just miss the cut for me, but they are probably closer than I think they are (I believe I am underestimating these).

All of this is ignoring possible synergies with bouncelands and other return land to hand cards (which obviously increase power level and build around potential of these spell-lands).

 

[Velrun]

Yeah the mechanic as a whole is pretty powerful! Not Companion powerful but pretty.

However if I had a deck with 2 Modal spell/land cards I would put 1 into my 17 lands and 1 into my 23 spells.

 

[ravnic]

Yeah the mechanic as a whole is pretty powerful! Not Companion powerful but pretty.

However if I had a deck with 2 Modal spell/land cards I would put 1 into my 17 lands and 1 into my 23 spells.

Interesting. I think with 2 I would still count them both to my lands, but there is certainly a point where you want to cut spells for them.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

The vast majority of these imposter land cards don't quite get there in most cubes. I'd say the only one that interests me is the Landfall Elephant, but even then it's mostly as just a beater to push through damage. In a lower powered format utilizing bouncelands however? I think these are incredible for that kind of environment if board development is slow enough.

I think that is a gross underestimation of these cards. As the average power level of a cube increases, the value of modal cards also increases. In a low power environment, modal cards often aren't as important as in high powered environment, since games are normally longer and players will have more time to use all of their cards. Thats why decks like Aristocrats and +1/+1 counters have a tendency to work in low to mid powered cubes but not high powered environments- more time in the game means more chances to see and play all of a decks interactive pieces.

The problem is that, in high powered environments, games tend to be quicker. Aggro decks are more efficient and more streamlined, midrange decks start pooping out planeswalkers on turn three, and control decks have the most efficient counter magic and removal possible. Here, decks can't afford to run slow or narrow cards because they will never get a chance to use them. However, that doesn't mean they don't want slow or narrow cards, just the material conditions of the format makes it impossible for those cards to always shine. Green ramp decks would love the ability to play Regrowth in many games to bring back a key creature or planeswalker, but can't always afford the slot because the card sometimes ends up never being used. By stapling Regrowth to a tap land, a green player now has a way to play their Nissa, Who Shakes the World for a second time when she dies, without ever having a useless spell in their hand that they can't use effectively.

I'm not saying these cards will get there in cubes with the Power 9 where dozens of slots are dedicated to niche combo pieces and storm cards. However, I think "tasteful powermax" cubes focusing on keeping a narrow power band at as high of a power level as is reasonable will run as many of these as possible. There's only like 5 or 6 of these that high-powered environments wouldn't want to play.

I'd recommend looking at John's prospective includes for the Cultic Cube and Eleusis to get an idea of what high (un)powered environments want to run from this set. It might not convince you that these cards are good in practice, but it should hopefully help you to understand just how many of these are at the very least interesting to people running at high power levels.

 

[shamizy]

I agree that modal cards are great in higher powered environments when you're still getting a decent rate of return. You won't get the most efficient version of a given effect, but the flexibility is what makes cards like Collective Brutality or Thassa's Intervention worth the slot. I don't believe these reach the minimal threshold necessary to be worth inclusion because the majority of the cards on the non-land are already fringe inclusions for a powerful cube environment.

I also think that Aristocrats and other like archetype can work in higher powered environments, it's just that the majority of designers aren't particularly creative or open to discovering ways to make these possible. Not necessarily the case around here, but it's been common in other forums over the years.

Additionally, the higher powered an environment, the less appealing an ETB tapped land is as the game develops. I don't mind plopping one down early in the game or fetching one at EOT if I don't have action, but land that enter tapped become progressively worse as the game goes unless you're in an extremely grindy match-up. If I'm getting a overcosted version of a fringe effect or an ETB land, neither of those are particularly appealing for inclusion. Neither side interests me. I just have better options available to fulfill these needs in my environment. I get the utility of these and they'll shine in environments where you won't get punished for developing slowly, but that's definitely not the case for me or the majority of higher poweed cubes.

I like to think that my environment is at a high power level, more so than the majority of cubes here at RL, and I only have passing interest in one or two of these imposter lands (I don't know a better term for these) specifically the Mammoth and that dig 6 deep instant. Those two seem about par for the effect. I think the majority of these cards will find homes in lower to mid powered cubes long term, but they'll be replaced as soon as a more attractive options crops up in the near future in more powerful environments. Kind of like how Supreme Will was the shit when it was spoiled, but quickly lost its place in a lot of cubes with better options printed.

 

[Dom Harvey]

One thing that's worth noting is that each colour already has more utility lands than it can realistically afford to play and those are natural competition for these. Take Windbrisk Heights or Mosswort Bridge as an example - usually a good spell at a discount at instant speed AND a land (that's better than a DFC any time you play it as a tapped land). How often is a new DFC better than Faerie Conclave or Ghitu Encampment?

 

[Brad]

You're trying to compare cards that are only ever lands and can never fix your opener in a meaningful way to some of the most flexible cards ever printed. This comparison is entirely off the mark in my opinion and completely misses the significance of these DFCs.

Waiting until mid-late game to maybe get value out of your hideaway is a bogus comparison when these cards have two viable options immediately ready to choose between at all times.

How often is the new DFC better than a manland that can only ever be played as a land and requires mana to be continually dumped into it to gain any benefits? Almost all of the time.

Sorry, but I really feel this assessment to be baseless.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Which DFC? Of course it's a baseless assessment if you're not making a specific comparison. The point is that for marginal DFCs, there are existing options that have similar flexibility in practice that don't make the cut for most Cubes and it's worth being mindful on that when choosing which ones to include (and I plan to include quite a few)

 

[Brad]

How often is a new DFC better than Faerie Conclave or Ghitu Encampment?

Which DFC?

I got as specific as you did lol. I'm glad to hear you plan to be running quite a few. Tons of these are great as long as your power level doesn't demand speed.

 

[Peter LaCara]

I'll tell you one thing - these cards are making me want to run Meloku again.

 

[Peter LaCara]

Are we not doing includes threads anymore? Anyway, here's what I'm looking at from the new set:

 

[Peter LaCara]

And the MDFCs:

 

[sigh]

Peter, the power is in your hands to make that include thread.

 

[Velrun]

Are we not doing includes threads anymore?

Man I really hope not. I really don't like having two threads for every set.
Suddenly the discussions about cards are going on in both threads. And in the future it will so much more difficult to find an old comment.

I spend 1100 Euro on this set. Mostly the fetch lands but since I now both run a low-low-low-powered starter cube for the starter cards and a high-powered regular cube for cards that the players unlock as the tournament progresses, I want cards from both high and low. And there was a lot of gems in this set.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Wait wait wait. 1100 euroes!? On a set that's not out yet?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I... I spent €70, and I thought that was a lot...

 

[Velrun]

Yeah but it was mostly the fetch lands in expedition foil and a few other expeditions. It has never been a bad deal to preorder the fetch lands in any set since they have always become more and more expensive as time passes. This of course is only true if you want them no matter what. And I do

I also believe the Pathway lands are way too cheap now. I got them for 5 Euro each in foil. This includes all 12 variants we got from Zendikar Rising (6 regular foil and 6 full art foil)