General Decks that have 3-0'd your cube
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Got in on a powered cube last week! Learned a lot because my draft looked good but felt bad! Check it out
I mean, I won with it, but each match went to 3 games and I felt like I had to earn most of them.
Most games that didn't involve a natural order or a very fast lotus cobra draw didn't feel easy. Even after drawing a million cards I have to say I usually felt low on really productive ways to use my mana and anything to do besides running my guys into blockers or removal over and over and hoping my attrition from leftover 3/3s and dinky elf free attacks would get me there.
Repeal was a total surprise MVP. I have a number of games that were set up as follows
Onedrop ramp > Remand > Repeal > Batterskull / Thragtusk / Acidic Slime
I want to tell you I felt ahead, but you pretty quickly realized you absolutely needed to have made those waves to even be in the game.
Repeal also let me spend 11 mana to bounce my ooze and deal with wolf run, which felt pretty nice.
I think deathtouch was another MVP. The 4-5 points of free damage you got from a player not wanting to block an ooze or token with their summoning sick sphinx really got you there if your opponent stabilized.
Witness and Snapcaster were pretty lame but I probably would not have won without their ability to let me spend my mana and re use removal spells.
This deck was SO soft to planeswalkers but was surprisingly resiliant to sweepers!
Recall Ramp
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I mean, I won with it, but each match went to 3 games and I felt like I had to earn most of them.
Most games that didn't involve a natural order or a very fast lotus cobra draw didn't feel easy. Even after drawing a million cards I have to say I usually felt low on really productive ways to use my mana and anything to do besides running my guys into blockers or removal over and over and hoping my attrition from leftover 3/3s and dinky elf free attacks would get me there.
Repeal was a total surprise MVP. I have a number of games that were set up as follows
Onedrop ramp > Remand > Repeal > Batterskull / Thragtusk / Acidic Slime
I want to tell you I felt ahead, but you pretty quickly realized you absolutely needed to have made those waves to even be in the game.
Repeal also let me spend 11 mana to bounce my ooze and deal with wolf run, which felt pretty nice.
I think deathtouch was another MVP. The 4-5 points of free damage you got from a player not wanting to block an ooze or token with their summoning sick sphinx really got you there if your opponent stabilized.
Witness and Snapcaster were pretty lame but I probably would not have won without their ability to let me spend my mana and re use removal spells.
This deck was SO soft to planeswalkers but was surprisingly resiliant to sweepers!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Deck looks lovely and focussed to be honest. Good job! (Given the parameters of a powered cube. I wouldn't want Wurmcoil Engine anywhere near my cube, for example.)
Awesome deck. I'm totally not feeling Search For Tomorrow in that list though. Maybe another 4 drop value dude? This deck clearly wants to midrange and between mox, cobra and hierarch I think you've got enough to get you one turn ahead. Was that card useful outside turn 1 nothing-better-to-do plays?
Bombs Away
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The Acidic Slime / Eternal Witness / Den Protector loop was probably the strongest thing this deck had going for it. I remember looking over at the pilot's round one opponent, and every time I peered over, he had fewer and fewer lands. "Wait, you had six lands a few turns ago. Why do you only have three now...?"
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
And now for something completely different. . .
Before we drafted I mentioned I put travel preparations in and someone apparently took that as an order to draft the most singleminded travel prep aggro deck humanly possible. Certainly not a very interactive or difficult deck to pilot, but I'll be damned if it wasn't action packed. Curse of Predation was clearly the best card in the deck, but Inspiring Call and Young Wolf were also really good in spite of how awkward the wolf is with so many counter adding cards.
New Card Jamfest
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Before we drafted I mentioned I put travel preparations in and someone apparently took that as an order to draft the most singleminded travel prep aggro deck humanly possible. Certainly not a very interactive or difficult deck to pilot, but I'll be damned if it wasn't action packed. Curse of Predation was clearly the best card in the deck, but Inspiring Call and Young Wolf were also really good in spite of how awkward the wolf is with so many counter adding cards.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
You know,servant of the scale looks downright playable with hardened scales in play
Hardened Scales might be good if it was a leyline, too good as a conspiracy. But as is... Not into it.
Running hardened scales as a layline actually does sound pretty interesting.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Hardened Scales > Gore-house chainwalker > Volt Charge > Shaman of the Great Hunt
The possibilities with that card are pretty extensive. It's the card that finally pushed me over the edge on the +1/+1 counter theme.
The possibilities with that card are pretty extensive. It's the card that finally pushed me over the edge on the +1/+1 counter theme.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Hardened Scales is a very good card. I was hopeful when it was first released and it has done nothing but be awesome since then. There are just so many ways to repeatedly put +1/+1 counters into play that it much more then a 1 mana situational anthem. Having it be a leyline could work, but what you you make the hardcast cost in that case? It can be awkward at 
, but the effect is definitely worth mana.
, but the effect is definitely worth mana.
These are all best case scenarios. Isn't just a bad draw 90% of the time, even in a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck?
It's a bad top deck, but most 1 drops are.
How many +1/+1 counters would a card that costs G be worth? I'm thinking 3 triggers and you got great value out of it. I fail to see how that won't be a typical case in a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck. So many mechanics play into it (evolve, bloodthirst, unleash) and Hardened Scales is an enchantment so it's hard to remove, dodges wraths, etc.
I'm sure others can speak more to actual play experience (it's a new theme for me and only lightly tested so far), but I really think this is a great card in decks that want the effect.
How many +1/+1 counters would a card that costs G be worth? I'm thinking 3 triggers and you got great value out of it. I fail to see how that won't be a typical case in a dedicated +1/+1 counter deck. So many mechanics play into it (evolve, bloodthirst, unleash) and Hardened Scales is an enchantment so it's hard to remove, dodges wraths, etc.
I'm sure others can speak more to actual play experience (it's a new theme for me and only lightly tested so far), but I really think this is a great card in decks that want the effect.
it's about how willing you are to run a card that's only good in a very specific type of deck and whether the payoff's worth it. if your counter decks don't do things like modular or evolve to move counters i don't know if the average case is really going to cut it even without getting into the fact that it's otherwise an insta-sideboard card
Without a very strong +1/+1 theme, I agree it's too narrow. And even if you are pushing that interaction, I would not run the card unless you always drafted the whole cube (or all the +1/+1 matters cards together). I would not have tried running Hardened Scales prior to my attempt at a modular cube (that can be configured to the size of the group - total work in progress).
As a rule, I think super narrow cards are fine as a long as they
1. Draw people into the deck
2. Are star cards in said deck
3. Don't constitute a large percentage of the cube
I think hardened scales will fit that bill with my group. It might not, and if it doesn't I will cut it and move on.
As a rule, I think super narrow cards are fine as a long as they
1. Draw people into the deck
2. Are star cards in said deck
3. Don't constitute a large percentage of the cube
I think hardened scales will fit that bill with my group. It might not, and if it doesn't I will cut it and move on.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I could see hardened scales being good. I've occasionally ran into cards that look too narrow on paper, but in practice are fine. I was hesitant about Atog in the pincher cube, as it really can only go into a heavy artifact based deck, but it really wasn't an issue in the actual draft. As long as you have a reasonably sized constellation of <x> effect, the card should be able to make its way into enough decks to justify the slot.
CML
Contributor
just not really what happens in games of magic. even if it does you're probably cutting off more possibilities than enabling them.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
What happens when you go Gore-House Chainwalker > Volt Charge > Shaman of the Great Hunt > draw Hardened Scales? Wouldn't that card just be better for your deck if it was, say, an Incinerate?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
It doesn't do much good to compare first pickable creature removal to a niche anthem, these aren't competing for the same spot in your deck. A generic limited deck is going to take basically every burn spell it can get it's hands on, and has a full compliment of threats, but you don't usually end up jamming 10+ combat tricks. you gotta remember, cube is kind of unique on the whole in that some cards are insane enough to be strong choices over cards like doom blade
For Eg: All these cards? Shit compared to path to exile. We should cut them ya?
This card is solid when played early with a solid compliment of +1/+1 counter dudes (which should be in ample supply, but we all get that)
This card is solid later when combined with specific cards that are insane or at least solid on their own (Ajani Goldmane, Curse of Predation, Gavony Township, Travel Preparations, Volt Charge, Undying Creatures, Random Megamorph guys, etc)
It's a horrible topdeck and horrible when you're hellbent with no creatures out, but there's plenty of cards like that. So is literally every 1 drop, but we fought long and hard to get people to run those
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Except they are. How many noncreature, nonremoval spells that are bad topdecks and niche in their application do you want to run in your draft decks? I'm guessing not many.
What kind of bullshit reasoning is this? You want to run an all-Path to Exile cube? All I'm asking is, is Hardened Scales good enough to justify running? I've heard nothing but magic christmasland scenario's so far. I get that curving out Hardened Scales > Gore-House Chainwalker > Volt Charge > Shaman of the Great Hunt is great, it is, but curving out Gore-House Chainwalker > Volt Charge > Shaman of the Great Hunt is also good, and that leaves you with another card in your deck that won't be a dead draw later in the game.
Also, none of the cards you want to cut for PtE above are anywhere near as dead of a draw as Hardened Scales. I really don't get what you are trying to prove here.
So yes, maybe Scales is fine. I don't know, I've never played it. The mana cost might save it. My gut though tells me that it's the second coming of Doubling Season. An awesome card for casual constructed that will never live up to its potential in limited formats (like cube).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Hardened scales seems fine in a lower power, grindy environment, with a strong counters theme. Its pretty much great at all points of the game, where you are looking to run it in a more midrange deck based around counter generating creatures, with the ultimate gameplan of going over-the-top. I could certainly run it in the pincher cube, though I have my doubts that it would be good in higher power cubes outside of that.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
And here I thought Gleam of Authority would be the controversial card choice in that deck.
Hardened scales is good, decks with it have 3-0'd twice and its been a key both times. Its not dead that fast, you don't need it on turn 1 or anything. Dude > Dude > Scales + Travel Prep or Dromoka's Command is really strong as is playing Scales on 4 with Curse of Predation. I guess if you run lots of wraths, it could suffer, but it can quickly put your creatures out of red wrath range (Except Blasphemous Act). It supports some funny engines. Its been too successful and too unique to cut as long as I run this theme.
Here's the other one: Decks that have 3-0'd your cube
Hardened scales is good, decks with it have 3-0'd twice and its been a key both times. Its not dead that fast, you don't need it on turn 1 or anything. Dude > Dude > Scales + Travel Prep or Dromoka's Command is really strong as is playing Scales on 4 with Curse of Predation. I guess if you run lots of wraths, it could suffer, but it can quickly put your creatures out of red wrath range (Except Blasphemous Act). It supports some funny engines. Its been too successful and too unique to cut as long as I run this theme.
Here's the other one: Decks that have 3-0'd your cube
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Posts like this are much more likely to convince me than Chris's Path to Exile rant (no offense Chris).
Chris Taylor
Contributor
You're right, not many. But I'd argue they do need to be there, limited is far better off with the addition of tricks, threatens, tempo spells, draw spells, etc, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
Here's the Noncreatuere, Nonremoval spells that are bad topdecks and niche in their application I run in White:
11 (10.5?) cards out of 66 white cards total, 18 other noncreature cards that don't fit into this category for whatever reason (Gideon, Oblivion Ring, Wrath of God, etc)
Some of these are fine at parity, but scales is fine there too with quite a few of the counter cards, but yeah. Each of these is niche, shit when you're behind on board, and are generally bad topdecks unless you're already not losing.
What I want to illustrate here is this kind of phemenon: Which of these is better for your deck?
Charge is never getting the nod there: you need way more of every other card in that choice that it's never going to be the pick.
But having a deck where your deck is 100% good topdecks, all creatures/removal spells is unrealistic (And likely not good for a limited format, see the addition of threatens, tempo spells, combat tricks etc above)
This is a much more interesting question:
I think to myself, is there a deck where I want scales as much as I'd want goblin bombardment out of the above 4, and it's definitely possible.
FSR's got a point about it being good on turns other than 1, and while those all involve specific cards, those specific cards are high in number and key to the deck, so the chances you have them is quite high.