There's so much good stuff in here!
Sets [EMN] Eldritch Moon Spoilers Thread
- Thread starter Goldenpineapple
- Start date
Fighting evil by moonlight
Winning love by daylight
Never running from a real fight!
She is the one named Tamiyo!
A lot of this stuff is neat design but doesn't seem like it would play nice in cube or they just aren't quite powerful enough. Faith Unbroken is cool but has archetype limitations (controlling decks won't always have a creature) and makes your opponent's regular removal that much better. Shreds of Sanity only buying back sorceries is so narrow, and savage alliance honestly seems underpowered to me. Hamlet Captain is a reprint.
On the other hand, the token makers and Weaver of Lightning all seem pretty nice in general. Nebelghast Herald is a nice spirit tribal pestermite+ reward!
Seems kinda interesting. Cheap, flash, and you can manipulate its effectiveness if you need to.
How big does this have to be to be good? 4/4+ seems just fine, which should be simple enough if you support GY stuff.
Has some play to it- besides the dream of trading up you can target an opponent's chump and still get the token. Not bad for
.
On the other hand, the token makers and Weaver of Lightning all seem pretty nice in general. Nebelghast Herald is a nice spirit tribal pestermite+ reward!
Seems kinda interesting. Cheap, flash, and you can manipulate its effectiveness if you need to.
How big does this have to be to be good? 4/4+ seems just fine, which should be simple enough if you support GY stuff.
Has some play to it- besides the dream of trading up you can target an opponent's chump and still get the token. Not bad for
.
I really want to like Thermo-Alchemist. Besides reminding me of Vent Sentinel, it fills the "cheap, defensive red creature with utility" hole that most of us might not even know we have; for the vaunted Big Red decks to work, they often need a little help surviving until the mid-game. For whatever reason, I never liked Guttersnipe much, even though I know he does good work in some folks' cubes. Costing two instead of three and being able to block weenies here and there seems like a potential upgrade; it also has the same damage output as Guttersnipe if you cast one instant or sorcery every turn (though it does have 'summoning sickness').
While this can't do a machine-gun impression like Gelectrode, the fact that it's easier to cast and can immediately defend could make up for that.
While this can't do a machine-gun impression like Gelectrode, the fact that it's easier to cast and can immediately defend could make up for that.
Seems comparable to Undying Evil, which has been a hit in my cube.
Has some play to it- besides the dream of trading up you can target an opponent's chump and still get the token. Not bad for
in (most?) decks.
Guttersnipe deals 2 damage per instant/sorcery cast; Thermo-Alchemist does 1. Can it block easier? Yeah, sure, and it comes down earlier to boot! But the point of Guttersnipe is as a Protect the Queen win-con; 10 spells and I win. In red, it's typically less, because those spells could include burn to the face. Taking 10 spells is vastly superior to taking 20 when it comes to a Spells-Matter damage piece. If you're playing Guttersnipe without a strong density of low-cost and spells available in your cube, it's just not going to work out very well. More to the point, when I see Guttersnipe, I want to build a Spells deck that's capable of seeing it push a bunch of damage out. Thermo-Alchemist doesn't really have the same sort of appeal to me, because it's a 0/3 that does a mere 1 per cast. Even more damning, it has defender. I can't count the number of times I've swung in for the win off Guttersnipe! Reckless Charge, Reckless Charge, Assault Strobe, I win. Thermo-Alchemist offers none of that. Making Guttersnipe more generic and less of a kill engine just means making the jump from archetype all-star into 14th pick draft chaff. If Guttersnipe isn't doing work in your list, this little pinger certainly isn't going to attract any attention, either.
As far as defensive red 2-drop yall think you're looking for, spells-matters recently got the defensive Sanguinary Mage, who blocks like a champ and swings fine to boot. She still bored my players and was cut after about a dozen drafts where-based Spells decks showed up several times and she wasn't a part of it.
and spells available in your cube, it's just not going to work out very well. More to the point, when I see Guttersnipe, I want to build a Spells deck that's capable of seeing it push a bunch of damage out. Thermo-Alchemist doesn't really have the same sort of appeal to me, because it's a 0/3 that does a mere 1 per cast. Even more damning, it has defender. I can't count the number of times I've swung in for the win off Guttersnipe! Reckless Charge, Reckless Charge, Assault Strobe, I win. Thermo-Alchemist offers none of that. Making Guttersnipe more generic and less of a kill engine just means making the jump from archetype all-star into 14th pick draft chaff. If Guttersnipe isn't doing work in your list, this little pinger certainly isn't going to attract any attention, either.As far as defensive red 2-drop yall think you're looking for, spells-matters recently got the defensive Sanguinary Mage, who blocks like a champ and swings fine to boot. She still bored my players and was cut after about a dozen drafts where
-based Spells decks showed up several times and she wasn't a part of it.
I've cooled a lot on Guttersnipe. While I love Young Pyromancer, it's primary because Young P is a 2 drop instead of a 3 drop, has a better power to cost ratio, and a 1/1 token has more potential than a straight 2 damage to my opponent (outside maybe specific all-in aggro shells). I like this new guy even less for reasons Raveborn listed though. If you want that kind of effect, Gelectrode is considerably better (even if it's a gold card).
Hmmm, when I ran Guttersnipe, he acted as more of an easy-to-remove global enchantment than as an actual body; it was really hard to either attack or block with a Gray Ogre profitably.
I understand that Thermo-Alchemist only does one off each spell, but I was picturing more of a slow burn (ahem) with it, where the pilot only casts one instant/sorcery a turn. If you're 'going off' on a single critical turn, a la storm, Guttersnipe is your man. This is probably a function of a cube's construction as much as anything else. I think I run fewer one-mana cantrips than most folks, so combo-like shenanigans are less likely; but a slower, steadier approach is possible.
I'm probably stretching the comparison a little, but I see Alchemist as a Thing in the Ice that actually does something. That is to say, Thing in the Ice is all or nothing: You either cast four instants or sorceries after deploying it, and get the reward, or you don't, and it's stuck as an 0/4. The ceiling on Alchemist is considerably lower, but its cost of doing business is more reasonable, too.
Granted, I think most of us aren't close to considering Thing in the Ice, so I'm not sure if that comparison kinda invalidates my argument. Uhhhh, I should go back to watching bad wrestling videos.
I understand that Thermo-Alchemist only does one off each spell, but I was picturing more of a slow burn (ahem) with it, where the pilot only casts one instant/sorcery a turn. If you're 'going off' on a single critical turn, a la storm, Guttersnipe is your man. This is probably a function of a cube's construction as much as anything else. I think I run fewer one-mana cantrips than most folks, so combo-like shenanigans are less likely; but a slower, steadier approach is possible.
I'm probably stretching the comparison a little, but I see Alchemist as a Thing in the Ice that actually does something. That is to say, Thing in the Ice is all or nothing: You either cast four instants or sorceries after deploying it, and get the reward, or you don't, and it's stuck as an 0/4. The ceiling on Alchemist is considerably lower, but its cost of doing business is more reasonable, too.
Granted, I think most of us aren't close to considering Thing in the Ice, so I'm not sure if that comparison kinda invalidates my argument. Uhhhh, I should go back to watching bad wrestling videos.
Are people really able to build those types of decks though? Prowess works because even creature heavy decks have 8 cards that trigger. But instant/sorcery only? My cube has maybe 90 of those in totality. How many can I possibly grab during drafting? If I have 6-7 in a deck, I've probably done pretty well. How many triggers will I get off that after T3?
This is Guttersnipe's problem. And Young P too, but he costs 2 mana and if I get just one body off him, he's already exceeded expectation for a 2 drop. But a 2/2 body and 2 to my opponent on a 3 drop? That's not good enough.
This is Guttersnipe's problem. And Young P too, but he costs 2 mana and if I get just one body off him, he's already exceeded expectation for a 2 drop. But a 2/2 body and 2 to my opponent on a 3 drop? That's not good enough.
A couple cards that I'm specifically loving from our last-day dump:
Wow. That's a super strong effect considering it's
instant speed Night's Whisper? Seems at least testable. Allows for holding up both kill spell and this, and flexibly using either. Cool.
that's a lot of recursion power for red, and a incidental discard outlet besides that! Neat.
Wow. That's a super strong effect considering it's
- Instant
- One sided
- Gives the mythical ~Buff~ required to get green spells out of the dumpster
instant speed Night's Whisper? Seems at least testable. Allows for holding up both kill spell and this, and flexibly using either. Cool.
that's a lot of recursion power for red, and a incidental discard outlet besides that! Neat.
I know most of these won't be high enough power for most of our cubes, but power is a relative thing and there's a lot of really cool designs in this set.
Also, read Shreds of Sanity again. It gets an instant and a sorcery.
People are building Guttersnipe decks over here plenty. Literally the last draft we did, I ult'd Tamiyo, the Moon Sage with Guttersnipe on-board and Ass Strobe'd Villain 4 times for the win ( ͡° ͜ ʖ ͡°)
I'm not saying Guttersnipe works everywhere, just that in the places where Thermo-Alchemist is going to do anything, Guttersnipe and Young Pyromancer will be superior spells-oriented options. The card (and spells decks in general) benefits hugely from a pushed mana curve and a moderated creature density. Since 70% of my non-land cards are CMC 3 or less, he can pump out a lot more damage than a cube skewed more towards midrange slugfests, dragon cubes, powered cubes, etc.
edit: I'll post my actual thoughts on includables soon but I have a lot of things piquing my interest from the full spoilers and a lot on my plate today (well actually, just Overwatch)
I need to go through the list again, but what I'm most excited about is the new art on terrarrion!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That new art is a huge improvement indeed!
Wasn't the problem with Viridian Emissary that it was basically awkward and didn't stick to a plan? Does this one at least stick to a plan (defense) better?
Wasn't the problem with Viridian Emissary that it was basically awkward and didn't stick to a plan? Does this one at least stick to a plan (defense) better?
I quite like it. I feel like it would have greatly benefited from being a 1/3, but the very same decks that wish to ramp often wish to stall and make land drops, in lower powered cubes. So in a weird way, I think that this does do a better Emissary impression. It can't trade off, but it lets you hold out/ramp into a wrath effect, or gigantic creature.
This is an obvious plant for Emerge strategies. I don't know how many cubes without really, really heavy sacrifice themes will be able to make use of her.Wasn't the problem with Viridian Emissary that it was basically awkward and didn't stick to a plan? Does this one at least stick to a plan (defense) better?
Probably is there for Emerge. I'd posit that, like emmisary, people get too caught up in having to get the trigger at a specific time. I simply think that this is the same principle as VE, but sticks to a better game plan (defensive-based green).
And I don't have a planned spot for her either (yet), I'm just happy to see more of this death trigger pop up
Well, the best plan is for emissary is to trade with an attacker. If the opponent has two grey ogres, there's a good chance both would stay home. Against a 0/3, they would just attack into it.Wasn't the problem with Viridian Emissary that it was basically awkward and didn't stick to a plan? Does this one at least stick to a plan (defense) better?
That's probably true. The problem is VE doesn't signal that super well.
0/3 signals that it blocks well, and thus can point that player into drafting the deck it's better in (lines). VE might actually work a little better, but it doesn't blatantly show that, some people assume you gotta attack into death with it, or that it's part of an aggro deck, etc. Just look at the Gatherer discussion for VE and it's a complete jumble of people talking about attacking with it, blocking with it, hating it, and so on. It doesn't have a clear game plan. I think Primal Druid does.
Additionally, against two 2/2's, I'm not under much of any pressure, especially if I can block one. Next turn I can play, say... Courser of Kruphix or yavimaya elder and be a-ok.
I'm with Diakonov, I don't really see this as an upgrade. Emissary at least trades on defense.
I mean, maybe it plays differently in practice, but I'm not super tempted here.
I mean, maybe it plays differently in practice, but I'm not super tempted here.
Emissary is fine as a blocker, trading with a lot of attackers is solid. I don't see the problem with the card.