Card/Deck +1/+1 Counters

[Chris Taylor]

Scaleguard has been the best +1/+1 counters payoff card for me. It closes out games pretty quickly in counter decks, and is a reasonable curve topper for aggro/midrange. Even on an empty table it's a 4/4 for 4W that taps the best blocker when attacking. It's not good in defense, though.

4/5

Between this guy and curse of predation (who I want to bring back in. Maybe it'd be fair if it was bolster 1 instead?) the counters deck is approaching black levels of "can't block" since all your cards only work on offense. Feels like Zendikar limited

Maybe we need a vigilance counter lord?

 

[ahadabans]

Scaleguard has been the best +1/+1 counters payoff card for me. It closes out games pretty quickly in counter decks, and is a reasonable curve topper for aggro/midrange. Even on an empty table it's a 4/4 for 4W that taps the best blocker when attacking. It's not good in defense, though.

Thank you for this. I've been thinking about how I can add this theme to white and this card seems really good. I will definitely try this.

 

[Chris Taylor]

So, in the context of this thread:


Graft 3
Creatures you control get +1/+1 for each +1/+1 counter on them.
0/0

or

 

[quanta]

I like Creeperhulk more. I think Creeperhulk has a better worst case scenario and a worse best case scenario, although the average case scenario for Creeperhulk looks great to me anyways. Creeperhulk plays well with more stuff; he turns mana dorks that you played earlier in the game into significant threats. Does the same thing with tokens. Trample lets you punch through chump blockers.

On the other hand, if you're shooting for a lower base power level environment that's more heavily synergy based, I could see the graft guy being better. He's more likely to make it to the +1/+1 counters drafter and the turn he drops it's possible he not only adds his own 6 power to the board but maybe another 3-6 on the creatures you've already played. I'd probably change the graft guy to only cost 2 green.

 

[Dom Harvey]

This seems pretty nuts in a dedicated counters deck

 

[vennythekid]

This seems pretty nuts in a dedicated counters deck

This card is a blast to play with fabricate in Kaladesh

 

[Peter LaCara]

So, this card is nuts in Kaladesh limited. Is it cubeworthy, even at a highish power level?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Don't forget



It's a bit all eggs in one basket, but man that thing can swing races!

 

[Dom Harvey]

c/p from my thread:

Spoiler

+1/+1 Counters



Constructed analogues: Hardened Scales (KTK-BFZ Standard, Frontier)

The +1/+1 counters deck, which lets you waste everyone's time as you struggle to turn your dice-laden behemoths sideways, is a casual favourite and recent competitive breakout. With some new gifts from Kaladesh block and the Commander sets it can apply for a spot in a medium-power Cube.

This deck fits the aggro-combo definition given in the intro and certainly displays the useful properties of that archetype:

Early-game explosiveness

If you played against the Hardened Scales deck in Standard when it had its namesake card you know how brutal its starts can be. For a Cube you might not want cards like Hardened Scales that only fit in this deck but many of your best draws don't require these. Consider:

T1: Carrion Feeder
T2: Hangarback Walker for 1
T3: Rishkar, Peema Renegade; put counters on Feeder and Walker; tap Feeder to charge Walker

Carrion Feeder is rarely found in 'normal' Cubes but I know my audience and it's a favourite around these parts. Early reviews of Rishkar from the power-max crowd are very positive and I expect them to be even better here. Hangarback Walker, far from being narrow, is a universally good card in Cube and easily justified as a double if you're into that.

This start gives you a 2/2 Carrion Feeder, a 3/3 Hangarback Walker, and up to 6 mana next turn; if you like, you can sac Walker to make some Thopters and threaten an even larger Carrion Feeder.

When you add in the counter-specific cards, you get draws like:

T1: Experiment One
T2: Winding Constrictor triggering Evolve; Experiment One becomes a 3/3
T3: Avatar of the Resolute; it comes in with two counters, Evolve triggers and gives Experiment One two more counters

This has you attacking with a 5/5 on turn 3 with a 5/4 and a Hardened Scales on legs ready net turn.

I stand by my view that these nut draws are more interesting from both sides than the usual Goblin Guide-Ash Zealot-Rabblemaster-Hellrider draw that defines aggro in Cube. You get the satisfaction of putting all the pieces together with amazing results and your deck is doing its thing in a unique way rather than rehashing the same aggro curve you've seen a hundred times.

Late-game power

Another big selling point for aggro-combo is that your cards aren't quickly made obsolete as the game continues. Hangarback Walker is designed to grow with the flow of the game; Avatar is perfectly good as a 3/2 on Turn 2 in an aggressive start and a game-ender as a 7/6 on Turn 6. Cards like Varolz and Reyhan let you get value from smaller creatures by moving your power around. It's common to have two or more 1-drops or 2-drops on the board which are all bigger than any of your opponent's midgame plays.

In-game decisions

The counters deck asks for more than basic combat math in one turn; you have to sequence your plays carefully and plan ahead with a vision of how all the pieces fit together including against possible removal. Just using cards mentioned already: Carrion Feeder asks whether you want to sacrifice your board presence for more damage; Experiment One and Avatar prompt a trade-off between sequencing normally and contorting your plays to make them larger; every turn Hangarback Walker asks for a mana that you don't always want to give up; Rishkar lets you scale up your mana production dramatically in future turns. With Varolz or Reyhan you have turns reminiscent of Arcbound Ravager turns in Robots which is known for being one of the hardest aggro decks - and hardest decks overall - to play optimally.

As a Cube designer the great thing about +1/+1 counters is that they are essentially evergreen as the game's only way to mark permanent changes in power/toughness. Highly promising mechanics like Energy are limited because they are only ever confined to one block, but counters can be found everywhere. Some blocks have a subtheme that explicitly cares about counters - Unleash/Scavenge in RTR, the tribal silliness in Lorwyn - and incidental support is sprinkled throughout other sets: Carrion Feeder was not designed as a 'card that's about counters' but is a star of the archetype.

This theme also finds support across all colours. The Abzan focus in KTK helped to centre it in those colours but blue has Graft/Evolve from Simic's two showings and I'm constitutionally required to mention Ion Storm. Even obscure themes intersect with it in useful ways: an Elves theme can enjoy Joraga Warcaller and Bramblewood Paragon or your Heroic theme offers an existing supply of counters.

Since this theme is rarely explored at this power level it's worth looking at candidates individually:

Carrion Feeder/Experiment One: Both excellent; I love that the key 1-drops for this deck are also important pieces for other themes I want to support (sac/Zombies and green aggro/Humans respectively). See also Cloudfin Raptor in blue

Hardened Scales/Winding Constrictor: We've had debates about Hardened Scales before; attaching it to a respectable body makes the effect that much better and easy to set up via creature tutors. It also lets you pile counters on to it rather than needing another creature to get going. The more general wording on Constrictor lets it help out a small Energy theme if you want one or random cards like Tumble Magnet and Meren

Hangarback Walker/Walking Ballista: These fill out your curve in the most important spots while giving you necessary reach later in the game. The only downside to these is that they can get poached by anyone in the draft, but for good reason

Reyhan, Last of the Abzan: A recent addition and a very important one. The rate on this is fine even if you have no other counter synergies in your deck; if you do, it becomes fantastic. Some of the most impressive combo finishes involve loading up Hangarback Walker/Walking Ballista using Reyhan and a sac outlet such as:

Varolz, the Scar-Striped/Yahenni, Undead Partisan/Flesh Carver: Crossover with the sacrifice/Aristocrats theme that's also popular in BG (see Mazirek too). Varolz can also load up Walker/Ballista (or just a Thopter or Den Protector or something) on its own

Rishkar, Peema Renegade: Another excellent card in a generic green deck, this offers flexibility by converting your primary resource - counters - into another resource - mana - that's always in demand. In particular Rishkar is great with Walker/Ballista on either side, adding another counter ahead of schedule or making high values of X realistic

Gyre Sage/Devoted Druid/Crystalline Crawler: More restricted conversion of counters -> mana

Animation Module: An odd duck with a ton of potential. The counters deck focuses on vertical growth and this is a unique source of horizontal growth that works in parallel and has sweet interactions with other key pieces. With Curse/Nissa you can tap out to double the size of your army every (/other) turn, with Carrion Feeder you can make an 'unkillable' 1/1 while growing your Feeder at will for 1 mana, and so on. It doesn't hurt to have a mana sink that can nudge a planeswalker towards its ultimate either

Curse of Predation/Nissa, Voice of Zendikar: You want a counters 'Anthem' and these are the obvious choices. Some here have cut Curse for being too good in general and it's even more obscene in this deck. I don't know if I agree, but Nissa seems to be better on every metric: more flexible, more skill-testing, useful in a wider range of decks, and creates less polarized draws

Oona's Blackguard/Abzan Falconer/Bramblewood Paragon: I'm less convinced that you need counters 'Lords': they tend to be quite swingy and only useful in this deck. Falconer is probably the best and helps to anchor the theme in white (and for me goes very nicely with Thalia's Lieutenant for a Human crossover)

Plaxcaster Frogling/Cytoplast Root-Kin: Graft is great and Root-Kin is the best 'Lord' of all: with Scales/Constrictor you get a 5/5 that puts an extra two counters on your whole team and can add counters whenever it moves them around. Also excellent with Nissa.

Mikaeus, the Lunarch: The best counters card in White, a Human, something you can fetch with Recruiter or Ranger or what have you, and ridiculous with Scales.

High Sentinels of Arashin/Gleam of Authority: Probably a bit too on-the-nose. Gleam is very narrow but ridiculous when it works; one of my favourite recent Standard decks was this:

Gleam-White Heroic

Narnam Renegade/Greenwheel Liberator: Revolt is easy to turn on in fetchland-heavy Cubes and many of the cards listed here trigger it incidentally. Liberator might be too much work given how many good 2-drops there are in green but Renegade fills a key spot in the curve, doesn't need other counters-matter cards to be good, and can hold off attackers if your draw is slow

Young Wolf/Servant of the Scale: More 'specific' one-drops, only worth it if you're generally lacking one-drops or really want to push/signal the theme

Rakdos Cackler/Thrill-Kill Assassin: Solid aggressive cards that don't require green

Lotleth Troll/Dreg Mangler: Good graveyard(/Zombies?) crossover

Safehold Elite/Kitchen Finks/Puppeteer Clique/Glen Elendra Archmage/Murderous Redcap: Persist is famously strong with effects that grant counters; Finks and Archmage are in another league by themselves but Elite is worth trying. You can loop these infinitely with Metallic Mimic + a sac outlet. Watch out with Constrictor!

Abzan Ascendancy/Abzan Charm/Ghave, Guru of Spores: Going full Abzan opens up the Khans options but they probably aren't worth it

Phantom Centaur: This cycle is promising but only Centaur is really good enough and the protection is irksome

Managorger Hydra: Do you like counters?

Verdurous Gearhulk: This is on-theme for the counters deck the same way Umezawa's Jitte is on-theme for the artifact deck; speaking of which:

Steel Overseer/Arcbound Ravager: Apparently a team tested Hardened Scales Robots for the Modern PT (before deciding it was awful and just playing regular Robots instead, but still). If these can be made to work you have a delightful crossover between two themes that introduces artifact synergies to the colour pair least likely to enjoy them naturally. Overseer and Ravager are both amazing with Animation Module; can we get a Throne of Geth up in here?


Model decks:

BG Scales

BG Robot Scales

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Was that in reaction to my post about Hardened Scales? Still going to cut it, the more I think about it, the more insane the good Hardened Scales openers look. Like, just look at your explosive openings example...

Early-game explosiveness

If you played against the Hardened Scales deck in Standard when it had its namesake card you know how brutal its starts can be. For a Cube you might not want cards like Hardened Scales that only fit in this deck but many of your best draws don't require these. Consider:

T1: Carrion Feeder
T2: Hangarback Walker for 1
T3: Rishkar, Peema Renegade; put counters on Feeder and Walker; tap Feeder to charge Walker

Carrion Feeder is rarely found in 'normal' Cubes but I know my audience and it's a favourite around these parts. Early reviews of Rishkar from the power-max crowd are very positive and I expect them to be even better here. Hangarback Walker, far from being narrow, is a universally good card in Cube and easily justified as a double if you're into that.

This start gives you a 2/2 Carrion Feeder, a 3/3 Hangarback Walker, and up to 6 mana next turn; if you like, you can sac Walker to make some Thopters and threaten an even larger Carrion Feeder.

If we replace that Feeder with a Scales, you get...

T1: Hardened Scales
T2: Hangarback Walker for 2
T3: Rishkar, Peema Renegade; put counters on Rishkar and Walker

This start gives you a 4/4 Hangarback Walker, a 4/4 Rishkar, and up to 5 mana next turn. So, significantly bigger creatures, although a bit less combo potential. I think the plethora of +1/+1 counters just get out of hand way too much.

 

[Dom Harvey]

I didn't write 1700 words in my thread in response to a normal comment in another subforum, no

I find those starts amusing but YMMV

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I didn't write 1700 words in my thread in response to a normal comment in another subforum, no

I find those starts amusing but YMMV

Hehehe, I meant the quote, not the original post

And yeah... they might be amusing, but the best openings are also pretty much unbeatable for the other decks. I do like Rishkar, Peema Renegade and Cytoplas Root-Kin as +1/+1 counter-lords

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Nice write up. You might not be running the explicit counter lords at this power level, but its probably worth teasing out the de facto counter lords.



Thats sufficient density at 360 for a tribal theme localized in GB. I deliberately left scales and cytoblast out, because I kind of feel those might be more controversial cards.

Probably have it creep into white or red as the third color, whichever makes more sense. I imagine its going to have to intersect with an aggressive BR or BW deck (or perhaps both), because of carrion feeder. Thank goodness for metallic mimic.

 

[ahadabans]

Depends on where your cube's power level is. Mine was fairly high and Cytoplast Root-kin wasn't worth 4 mana. Hardened Scales is really strong with a +1/+1 counter theme. It broke some cards (Managorger Hydra), so YMMV there. But I found it to be the single best card to try and build around, so I ran it for that reason. Like a lot of 1 mana cards, it's wonderful early and pretty much garbage late. So sort of high variability.

Metallic Mimic is a wonderful synergy card for +1/+1 counter theme and tribal stuff (humans, etc). Not sure if it's too cute or not (cube power level will likely determine this), but I think some cubes will end up loving it.

 

[Aston]

Winding Constrictor + Umezawa's Jitte! Maybe that equipment is finally playable.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Want to revisit this theme from the perspective of making these cards absolute monsters:



The main format health benefit being, of course, that this provides a form of colorless removal for decks that might want that, providing you can jump through the appropriate hoops, with a reasonable floor and high ceiling.

I'm thinking it would be rooted in a WG/b




With maybe some light, occasional splashes into red for mini-overruns, or used as removal to facilitate a rampy UG deck.

Sub mechanics would be:
1. Artifact//low power/toughness reanimation/raise death
2. Metal craft?

With any sort of reanimation rooted in black or white (rather than blue--yes I know about academy ruins). I'm imagining a base G/W identity, because its going to want reanimation of some type, but black isn't particularly good at counter growth. White has some reanimation, and raise dead effects targeted at artifacts. Green also provides ramp to hit high CCs, and green isn't particularly good at removal.

The density of counter cards is immense, however, and I'm not sure what the most reasonably efficient ways to bulk these cards up would be.

 

[ahadabans]

Walking Ballista in particular is a massive mana sink, so in green I think this wants super ramp strategies - the more mana the better. If you are after overlap, Masticore is also a good mana sink for all that mana and it forces a discard, which then ties in with Goblin Welder / Feldon of the Third Path strategies. And the red splash gives you access to X burn spells - also a great use of lots of mana.

Trike is degenerate with any sort of blink effects, so there is your tie in with other white mechanics (and blue - this is very Bant). But blink is pretty oppressive in midrange lists, a discussion I think we've had here at Riptide many times prior. Tread lightly unless this is going to be a high powered meta or you are gutting a ton of ETB effects.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Yeah, ETBs are gutted, so we're clear for take off. Only blink effects are ghostly flicker and momentary blink.

I've looking for ways to turn trisk and co. into a pinger/token battery (I think). Cards like Triskelvus and pentavus are like army in a can ETB creatures, but in many ways much more reasonable, and much more interesting. Looking for ways to really push them.

 

[ahadabans]

Proliferate cards were good in my midrange list with that theme, Volt Charge in particular. Might also be a good place for skyship plunderer, a card I wanted to try out but never did. 2 power means it's way more useful in combat over Thrumming Bird, even if less combo I think the trade off is a good one in theory.

 

[Fulcrum]

I like that these reanimation spells are all "on theme" and costed reasonably. Vigor Mortis and Necromantic Summons make you jump through some hoops to get the counter synergy but you should have enough time to get there. CMC wise, they're on the Standard Solar Flare side of the scale rather than Legacy Reanimator which is super appealing.

I also think some of these cards can actually reanimate a Walking Ballista?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I skimmed through the gatherer pages, and it looks like they are a few mechanics to consider:

1. Bolster
2. Support
3. Scavenge
4. Reinforce

So, at least mechanically, it does seem to be tied towards GWB. I don't think that evolve or graft are really strong enough mechanics, but blue is so bonkers that I have no doubt it can work it way in. In a normal cube, ahda is probably right that the usual ETB abuse blink/reanimation mechanics would suck it in.

I'll play with those mechanics latter, but static forms of counter growth seem to be:




Some of these are a bit too beefy for what I want to do: thinking more fun durdles with a combo like element than being already in the process of killing them.

Going a bit deeper down the rabbit holes:

1. Interesting interactions with the spike cards



2. Interesting interactions with the new -1 -1 theme: and by that I mean using distributed +1 +1 or -1 -1 counters to both turn on or turn off activated abilities:



Probably don't really have the density for cube to make this a common interaction, but still in the back of my mind.

3. Fun to think of this being used to power certain other types of cards!

 

[silasw]

I would like to revisit this archetype in light of all the sweet new stuff in War of the Spark.

The new Proliferate cards are much stronger than the old ones:

The Amass mechanic is an interesting bridge between the +1/+1 counter archetype and the zombie archetype. Plus this set has a bunch of zombies in different colors, making that archetype more workable in general.

Is this guy worth it? Maybe?

And let's not forget some stuff from the past few sets that might have been overlooked:


There's some support in all five colors here. My dilemmas: Which colors should be the main focus for the archetype? And can this cute synergy compete in a medium-high power level cube?

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I would like to revisit this archetype in light of all the sweet new stuff in War of the Spark.

Spoiler

The new Proliferate cards are much stronger than the old ones:

The Amass mechanic is an interesting bridge between the +1/+1 counter archetype and the zombie archetype. Plus this set has a bunch of zombies in different colors, making that archetype more workable in general.

Is this guy worth it? Maybe?

And let's not forget some stuff from the past few sets that might have been overlooked:

There's some support in all five colors here. My dilemmas: Which colors should be the main focus for the archetype? And can this cute synergy compete in a medium-high power level cube?

I think counters have always been good enough for a medium-high powered environment. I think GRN block and War of the Spark have both been very good for people trying to make counters decks a thing, although I would say that the support has been there for mid-power since Khans of Tarkir.

I think Huatli's Raptor, Evolution Sage, and even Ajani, The Greathearted will all be integral parts of upcoming counters decks.

What I'm saying is- time to dust off the Hardened Scales, Walking Ballistas, Endless Ones, and Travel Preparations- counters are back on the Menu!

Spoiler: Soul Diviner

Soul Diviner is not worth it unless U/B is a main counters color in your list. It has half-decent stats, but it isn't always going to be doing something without a lot of proliferation or disposable counters.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I actually think hardened scales is a bit too swingy

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I actually think hardened scales is a bit too swingy

It depends on your As-Fan of counters support cards and what counter's cards you're using. It's good depending upon the situation/deck it ends up in.