Card/Deck Ahadabans Newest Least Favorite Card Ever

CML

Contributor
Maybe more brutal this way. Imagine playing an early PW that bounced a land back to their hand. They may never recover from the tempo loss.


i dunno, it might be OK since they wasted some tempo bouncing your thing

i like the artifact-stealing thing and you should too because Cube needs more ways to deal with Artifacts. Arts and enchantments are way more annoying than walkers in a vacuum because you can't steal them, and you can only run so many Qasali Pridemage or Wickerbough Elder. i'm super-happy to run this guy and never again think about Dismantling Blow or Orim's Thunder or other mainstream "classics" that expose the idiocy of powered cube
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
i dunno, it might be OK since they wasted some tempo bouncing your thing

i like the artifact-stealing thing and you should too because Cube needs more ways to deal with Artifacts. Arts and enchantments are way more annoying than walkers in a vacuum because you can't steal them, and you can only run so many Qasali Pridemage or Wickerbough Elder. i'm super-happy to run this guy and never again think about Dismantling Blow or Orim's Thunder or other mainstream "classics" that expose the idiocy of powered cube

Maybe you just need artifacts that need to be stolen less?

I mean, if a player pays 3 mana to yoink a Wurmcoil and STILL has a PW left over, is that really the spot you want to be in?

Also, isn't this dude's ultimate, like, the worst ever? Maybe not, but I can see it being useless. Either due to lack of targets or the original spell killing said targets.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Is there a "destroy target artifact or enchantment" card with Cycling on it? That would be some fun tension.
 

CML

Contributor
Maybe you just need artifacts that need to be stolen less?

I mean, if a player pays 3 mana to yoink a Wurmcoil and STILL has a PW left over, is that really the spot you want to be in?

Also, isn't this dude's ultimate, like, the worst ever? Maybe not, but I can see it being useless. Either due to lack of targets or the original spell killing said targets.


oops, you can't "attack" artifacts and enchantments. those card types' non-interactivity have been proven again and again in venues from Vintage Stax to Legacy Enchantress to Modern Affinity to the low-removal, unpopular limited environments of SOM and Theros, I'm not sure how one would go about fixing that but Dack may be a start.

edit: I am dense and misread your original post -- sure, yoinking a Jitte or a Wurmcoil is preferable to having it win the game for its caster all the time. i do realize this is bad design in the sense that "dack steals wurmcoil and wins the game" isn't too far off from "x casts wurmcoil and wins the game," but then Dack also does other stuff, mitigates your concern with "having a PW in play" by having the poopiest of all ultimates, and his -2 is still a heavily conditional ability.

anyway, I think we're on the same page in that the issue is way more with metaphorical Wurmcoil than with metaphorical Dack, like with Dack, after you steal even a B'skull, you still have to pay 5 to move it elsewhere and can't bounce it. the solution i think you're suggesting, which is the same as mine, has been sidestepping it all by not running colorless slams (where's that thread?), but if one must, then Dack's versatility and altogether sweet design make him a way more justifiable inclusion than Dismantling Blow or Orim's Thunder, even if "destroy" is usually cooler than "steal."

if there aren't many high-impact artifacts, or high-impact artifacts of a different variety, then the whole 'steal' thing might end up being great fun. i wonder what happens when Dack steals a Birthing Pod?
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Player 1 opens Forest, Lotus Petal, Channel, Blightsteel Colossus
Player 2 opens Black Lotus, Island, Dack Attack
The game lives on forever as a tweet.
 
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FlowerSunRain

Contributor
If you're running artifacts that, if Dack steals them win the game, and if he doesn't steal them loses the game, your artifacts are probably GRBS, and Dack will be GRBS.

On the other hand, if your artifacts don't highhandedly win the game when stolen/not stolen, do we really need to punish people for playing them with a card that steals them AND leaves behind a double looting planeswalker?
 
On the other hand, if your artifacts don't highhandedly win the game when stolen/not stolen, do we really need to punish people for playing them with a card that steals them AND leaves behind a double looting planeswalker?
I agree. Isn't the issue here that "steal target something" with big upside is just too much of a tempo swing to be fun at three mana? Like, we all agree that coldsteel heart is far from being GRBS, but if you play one turn two on the draw, and your opponent untaps and daks it, you're pretty far behind...
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I agree. Isn't the issue here that "steal target something" with big upside is just too much of a tempo swing to be fun at three mana? Like, we all agree that coldsteel heart is far from being GRBS, but if you play one turn two on the draw, and your opponent untaps and daks it, you're pretty far behind...

Its like getting hit with an annex that cascades into a merfolk looter (but better) for 3?
 
Its like getting hit with an annex that cascades into a merfolk looter (but better) for 3?

It's worse. This is a cloudshifted control Magic effect (i.e. you can't get it back) into faithless looting with infinite free rebound cost. For 3 mana.


And you guys wonder why I so vehemently hate planeswalkers? I'm not even sure this is the best walker ever printed. That's what really makes me laugh. It's like this whole card type decided to take a crap all over the fundamental core mechanics of the game. See, there I go ranting again. Can't help it man. This card type is like a violation of my early adulthood in the same way a lot of the bogus movie remakes are ruining childhood memories all around the world.
 

CML

Contributor
It's worse. This is a cloudshifted control Magic effect (i.e. you can't get it back) into faithless looting with infinite free rebound cost. For 3 mana.


And you guys wonder why I so vehemently hate planeswalkers? I'm not even sure this is the best walker ever printed. That's what really makes me laugh. It's like this whole card type decided to take a crap all over the fundamental core mechanics of the game. See, there I go ranting again. Can't help it man. This card type is like a violation of my early adulthood in the same way a lot of the bogus movie remakes are ruining childhood memories all around the world.


i think it's OK to be reactionary so long as there's a liberal dose of self-awareness and acknowledgement of one's own limitations when it comes to evaluation and judgment (everything is always in a perpetual state of decline! kids these days -- I can't help it!)

not everyone has artifacts; everyone has lands

I agree. Isn't the issue here that "steal target something" with big upside is just too much of a tempo swing to be fun at three mana? Like, we all agree that coldsteel heart is far from being GRBS, but if you play one turn two on the draw, and your opponent untaps and daks it, you're pretty far behind...

untaps and hits dack for 1; the show goes on; the benefit is marginal enough that it's well within the realm of "fun interaction"
 
i think it's OK to be reactionary so long as there's a liberal dose of self-awareness and acknowledgement of one's own limitations when it comes to evaluation and judgment (everything is always in a perpetual state of decline! kids these days -- I can't help it!)

not everyone has artifacts; everyone has lands

I can't argue with you there. I have an unhealthy dislike for planeswalkers that often borders on irrational. I'm not blind to it. I also don't care. They piss me off.

untaps and hits dack for 1; the show goes on; the benefit is marginal enough that it's well within the realm of "fun interaction"

With that said, I think this is being understated. What did you kill his Dack with? You used your last turn to tap out for cold steel. If you did that, you almost certainly didn't play a creature as your one drop. So unless you are running Rx control, you have nothing to kill Dack with on turn three. And you are behind mana and cards. It's not that you can't come back, but this is really a kick in the nuts here for a solid turn two play that really shouldn't result in you getting your front teeth knocked out. Maybe it's fun to some, but this seems really annoying and swingy to me. I don't see the appeal.

I am certainly on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to my tolerance for GRBS though. I even consider things like Wurmcoil unplayable in cube because they do too much for their mana cost and jacked up games states too much. Add that to my disdain for walkers in general, and you have a fairly extreme position that probably isn't adding huge value to this thread.

...slowly takes a step away and exits the thread quickly...
 

Laz

Developer


Look! -2 Control Magic. I don't see you all up in arms about this. Could it be because this isn't such a big tempo swing at 8CMC?

I like the design of Dack. The +1 is very functional, the ultimate is suitably flavourful and I am sure will lead to sweet lines of play to maximise it. It is the damn -2. On a 3CMC, the tempo swing is insane, except where is does nothing. Normally I don't have a huge issue with cards that possess situational awesomeness (Birthing Pod, et al.), since they reward strong drafting, but this card is just all around good with the situational and somewhat random feel-bad beating of Steal Artifact. It doesn't reward good drafting, it is simply a main deck card that punishes the opponent for including a card type in their deck.
 

CML

Contributor
I can't argue with you there. I have an unhealthy dislike for planeswalkers that often borders on irrational. I'm not blind to it. I also don't care. They piss me off.



With that said, I think this is being understated. What did you kill his Dack with? You used your last turn to tap out for cold steel. If you did that, you almost certainly didn't play a creature as your one drop. So unless you are running Rx control, you have nothing to kill Dack with on turn three. And you are behind mana and cards. It's not that you can't come back, but this is really a kick in the nuts here for a solid turn two play that really shouldn't result in you getting your front teeth knocked out. Maybe it's fun to some, but this seems really annoying and swingy to me. I don't see the appeal.

I am certainly on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to my tolerance for GRBS though. I even consider things like Wurmcoil unplayable in cube because they do too much for their mana cost and jacked up games states too much. Add that to my disdain for walkers in general, and you have a fairly extreme position that probably isn't adding huge value to this thread.

...slowly takes a step away and exits the thread quickly...


now this is true, but then Dack could do nothing vs aggro which is depressing

there are all sorts of engines in modern Magic (from Phyrexian Arena to Ephara to Bloodbraid Elf!) and I'd argue strongly "runaway card advantage" was a much bigger thing "back in the good old days," what with Forbidian and stuff like FoF. Sphinx's Revelation is a great spell and everything but the fact it's been so format-defining indicates there hasn't been much like it for a while.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member


Look! -2 Control Magic. I don't see you all up in arms about this. Could it be because this isn't such a big tempo swing at 8CMC?

I like the design of Dack. The +1 is very functional, the ultimate is suitably flavourful and I am sure will lead to sweet lines of play to maximise it. It is the damn -2. On a 3CMC, the tempo swing is insane, except where is does nothing. Normally I don't have a huge issue with cards that possess situational awesomeness (Birthing Pod, et al.), since they reward strong drafting, but this card is just all around good with the situational and somewhat random feel-bad beating of Steal Artifact. It doesn't reward good drafting, it is simply a main deck card that punishes the opponent for including a card type in their deck.

Yeah, I thought about this card when considering the CMC of effects discussion earlier.

Stealing instead of destroying (or exiling, whatever) for 3 mana is what feels so off here. Couldn't the steal target artifact at least have been a -3? Like, the closest analogue is probably if Liliana of the Veil was able to steal creatures with her -2. Obviously it's not the same, but Liliana is already insane simply by virtue of edicting (potentially twice).
 
I am certainly on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to my tolerance for GRBS though

Don't worry, you've got an ally here.

Already axed quite a lot of PWs from my list, including ral, so reading this guy quickly punted him from potential inclusion. The only thing I can say about him that I think people are off about is that his ult isn't all that bad. Sure, blue's stuff is all pretty irrelevant (Unless you run reality spasm??), but burn spells are both typically too small to kill the more threatening stuff and have a lot of multitarget cards. It's a nightmare for a lot of decks. Arc lightning? Vomit.
 
there are all sorts of engines in modern Magic (from Phyrexian Arena to Ephara to Bloodbraid Elf!) and I'd argue strongly "runaway card advantage" was a much bigger thing "back in the good old days," what with Forbidian and stuff like FoF. Sphinx's Revelation is a great spell and everything but the fact it's been so format-defining indicates there hasn't been much like it for a while.

I think the power creep in the game is a bigger concern with modern magic. My go-to example is Grave Titan (not even the best six drop really). That card (and it's siblings) started a trend of wrecking board states in ways that really no creature before it has ever done (and creatures since are doing more and more).

I started playing Magic during Kamigawa, but really didn't get into the game seriously until Ravnica block (during which time I played literally every day). There was nothing like Grave Titan back then. Skeletal Vampire was a legitimate and scary finisher because you got three bodies for one spell and it could regenerate and it could make an army (super expensive cost, but still). Compare that to Grave Titan though and that card is a joke. It's unplayable in today's game.

Why did they have to change the game so drastically? I agree that up until that point spells >>>>> creatures . So some amount of power creep for creatures was probably needed to make the game more balanced. But stuff like Wurmcoil and the Titans is going to far IMO. It ruins board states. Completely. The game used to be about incremental advantage (combo aside). Now, you can be playing an aggressive deck and have a really solid lead and board control and literally lose all the advantage you have when something like Grave Titan comes into play. That thing is a fog, destroy creature your opponent's best creature if they attack, broken card advantage engine, army in a can all rolled up into one. There is literally no reply the aggressive player can make to it that doesn't completely undo everything he has done up to that point. How did that card and cards like it make the game better? The only reply to this is to make your deck faster so that you win before Grave Titan undoes everything. So now you have more extremes where control auto wins at 6 mana and auto loses if aggro gets the right draw. Again I ask, how did this in anyway improve the game of Magic?

As far as card advantage engines, I think walkers represent an extremely broken form of it. I've gone on enough tirades about them that I won't keep going on and on, but they give you an endless amount of free stuff as long as they remain alive. Which means they must die or you again wind up with a ruined game state.

Long story short, these design decisions (Titan design and walkers) has completely changed how Magic plays. Does it still function? Absolutely. Some might even argue better than it did. But it is very different now, and not all of us are on board with the evolution. Cube though offers me (and others) the ability to take what I want and discard the rest. In a way, what has been done to the game has been a boon for me (even if I've lost interest in the core game because of it) simply due to the fact that I now have a much better creature selection and I can make it so that creatures are on an equal footing in power level with spells (which IMO is good for the game).

Just my 2 cents though.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I don't know, I feel like the Titans do an effective way of "upping the urgency" of the gamestate, as Cooperfauss would say. Grave Titan is beatable, but it certainly changes things. I realize everyone has their line (wait, that's a lie), and for me Grave Titan and Wurmcoil fall on opposite sides of said line.
 
Just my 2 cents though.
Having played with serra angel in an environment with old cards, the incremental advantage you got from it in comparison to another fair deck was just as big as a grave titan is now. Sure, the bar is moved for creatures, especially 4+ drops. A big reason for that is that in older magic, expensive creatures were giving a mostly linear increase in power from low drop spell. This made 6-7 drop creatures worthless trash compared to efficient spells (especially efficient non-creatures), and now they're playable (because you need incremental gains from every bit of mana you spend on a card).

If a 1 drop spell easily answers every expensive threat, then expensive threats simply cannot exist. I'm not really a huge fan of wurmcoil engine because of the colorless bomb problem, and grave titan is certainly on the higher end of power for 6 drops in any color or anything, but 6 drops have to do SOMETHING, and that's been true all the way back to the beginning of magic. That something-that-6-drops-must-do can be tweaked and moved to your particular power level of choice. That does not mean that grave titan ruins the game for every environment and it doesn't mean a cube with a grave titan in it does not care about incremental card advantage. There's a power level where aggressive decks see a grave titan and they can play through it. Sure, it is hard, but so is beating serra angel with a bunch of old 2/1s. I personally don't run grave titan because its a bit above my power level, but I've played with it and against it in other cubes/standard, and you really are making a huge oversimplification of the card.

You talk in your other posts about aggro making a game not happen, which ties back into this. Your expensive cards aren't worth it against an aggro deck and it warps your whole format around it. Which is fine, but you've got to explore the consequences and compare instead of talking about 'power creep'. There are good reasons wotc did a lot of this stuff, even if neither of us may agree with them from time to time (but that's another story). Aggressive cards are also what keep a lid on the walkers.

Of course it changed how magic played, the only way not to change it would be to not print anything new.

Your skeletal vampire comparison is flawed. While I didn't play during that format, to my understanding it was relatively slow even for the era. It was right after a format that had Affinity, which made wotc attempt to power down standard at the time.

if you talk about power creep in magic, you are turning a blind eye to... let's just have a quick list off the top of my head of cards that are way the nuts compared to anything recent.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
Also, GRBS is only GR or BS if your other cards allow it to be. Your midrange deck is probably losing to Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine, but if your midrange deck has a Grave Titan it doesn't care as much about a Wurmcoil Engine (and vice versa). Obviously stuff like Channel -> Emrakul is going to be overpowered and no matter what, but there's nothing inherently offensive about Titans to me.
 
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