Sets Amonkhet (AKH) Spoilers
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Who said it was bad?
I don't see a reason why these have land types and Temples, Check lands, fast lands, Shadows over Innistrad lands and all the rest don't.
What makes these that special?
You may find this helpful. I think part of designing a good game is making choices actually matter; if the reserve list policy disappeared tomorrow, and they started doing functional reprints of ABUR duals, we'd see an even more unhealthy Standard than we do currently. For all the noise made on these forums about offering better fixing in a cube, there is a utility in conditioning fixing in different ways, and this counts especially so for constructed formats. Players will do whatever you incentivize, even if it's not fun; everyone playing 4-5c decks might sound fun to some people, but I don't think it's particularly fun or healthy for the game in the long-term, personally.
Working from a base assumption that enabling easy 4c/5c deck assembly works against the health of the game, we can quickly conclude that Check Lands and Reveal Lands (the SoI lands) would be pretty stupid with basic land types, as they'd then feed each other, reducing the cost of using them significantly.
Similarly, Temples are awfully strong as they are; Scry 1 is a powerful addition to a land, and I don't think it needs to be pushed further with the ability to fetch/landcycle for it. Scry is a great mechanic that makes for good games, but tacking it onto a land that fixes is already juicy enough, again, assuming our goal is a diverse format.
As for Fast Lands, since they ETB tapped when you have more than 2 lands out, the land typing doesn't even really seem very useful? I guess they help offer an even better early game curve-out with fetches, but imho shocklands offer this benefit at a much fairer rate of 1 Shock to the face.
Painlands are really old and were originally printed as a powered-down take of ABUR duals, which they felt were unhealthy for the game. I guess one could ask why they didn't then, but they're honestly so old... Even if they wanted to print new ones that were fetchable, they'd probably exist just under (or maybe right on par with) the power level of Shocklands, so I guess that's a reasonable request, but not one I think is super necessary.
The simplest explanation, of course, is that these have basic land types because they want to sell packs.
It's pretty easy to make the bicycle lands fetchable, since they always ETB tapped and therefore don't provide any extra value in play. The cycling ability can't really be used when you fetch the land, making it an either/or choice. Scrylands, on the other hand, would work exceptionally well with fetches as you'd always get to take advantage of the scry and could even do it at the end of your opponent's turn when the information is likely to be at its most valuable.
More cynically, the land typing on the bicycle lands will probably have minimal impact on Standard but might make these tempting in Modern, broadening their appeal (and thus selling packs).
More cynically, the land typing on the bicycle lands will probably have minimal impact on Standard but might make these tempting in Modern, broadening their appeal (and thus selling packs).
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Broad appeal in something like fixing seems pretty good overall, especially since these are trying to decrease variance rather than shove everyone into 5c goodstuff
Also, they could of course be redone, but as templated the pain lands don't work as fetchable lands. The basic land types imply the ability to tap for mana, pain-free. With basic land types they'd be ABUR duals that tap for colorless and enable Death's Shadow :eek:
I hope we get more cubeable cycling cards, because I'm currently obsessed with Astral Slide. It's clumsy as far as flicker effects go though. Most cubes are probably not going to be able to support it.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
There's ways you could do it, and back when we had the colorless mana thing going on I was considering it, but it's hardly elegant
Land - Swamp Plains
(
, add or to your mana pool)T: Add
to your mana pool.Whenever you tap ~ for colored mana, it deals 1 damage to you
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Honestly, its probably fine now if you want, providing you calibrate the power level so astral slide is competitive as a card. Assuming they print the full cycle, you've now got a base density of 10-20 cyclers (singlton break) on something foundational to the format, that is taking up minimial space both in cube and in deck building.
Some fun brewing space for r/w/g midrange.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I had this exact design in my old cube that tried to support both three-colored cards and colorless cards (of the Thought-Knot Seer variety). It worked really well, unlike the cube itself (even if it was fun to try and make it work). I do think the concept would have worked better with light two-color support instead of heavy three-color support, and for that kind of cube, being able to fetch colorless mana with your fetchlands is great!There's ways you could do it, and back when we had the colorless mana thing going on I was considering it, but it's hardly elegant
Land - Swamp Plains
(
T: Add
Whenever you tap ~ for colored mana, it deals 1 damage to you
You may find this helpful. I think part of designing a good game is making choices actually matter; if the reserve list policy disappeared tomorrow, and they started doing functional reprints of ABUR duals, we'd see an even more unhealthy Standard than we do currently. For all the noise made on these forums about offering better fixing in a cube, there is a utility in conditioning fixing in different ways, and this counts especially so for constructed formats. Players will do whatever you incentivize, even if it's not fun; everyone playing 4-5c decks might sound fun to some people, but I don't think it's particularly fun or healthy for the game in the long-term, personally.
Working from a base assumption that enabling easy 4c/5c deck assembly works against the health of the game, we can quickly conclude that Check Lands and Reveal Lands (the SoI lands) would be pretty stupid with basic land types, as they'd then feed each other, reducing the cost of using them significantly.
Similarly, Temples are awfully strong as they are; Scry 1 is a powerful addition to a land, and I don't think it needs to be pushed further with the ability to fetch/landcycle for it. Scry is a great mechanic that makes for good games, but tacking it onto a land that fixes is already juicy enough, again, assuming our goal is a diverse format.
As for Fast Lands, since they ETB tapped when you have more than 2 lands out, the land typing doesn't even really seem very useful? I guess they help offer an even better early game curve-out with fetches, but imho shocklands offer this benefit at a much fairer rate of 1 Shock to the face.
Painlands are really old and were originally printed as a powered-down take of ABUR duals, which they felt were unhealthy for the game. I guess one could ask why they didn't then, but they're honestly so old... Even if they wanted to print new ones that were fetchable, they'd probably exist just under (or maybe right on par with) the power level of Shocklands, so I guess that's a reasonable request, but not one I think is super necessary.
The simplest explanation, of course, is that these have basic land types because they want to sell packs.
That is some sound logic and I Thank you for the analysis.
Obviously it's mainly to sell packs but Wizards of the Coast is a company so this is acceptable. Secondly I really like how you went through almost every cycle of lands. Even some I didn't mention (Pains)
I 100 % agree we should never see lands with Basic land types unless they can tap for that mana painless.
They should probably also untap like normal every turn.
However I always thought they should also have a way of entering the battlefield untapped. These are the first ones that cannot.
The original Basics entered untapped.
The original ABU duals entered untapped.
Ravnica Shock lands could enter untapped.
BFZ Battle lands could enter untapped.
And now Bicycling can't.
From a designer's perspective I find these odd.
CML
Contributor
Lacking such recognized standards, the program sponsors feel entirely justified in equating public interest in radio with low sales resistance. Programs are tailored to evoke and to maintain just those states of mind which can be induced in the largest possible audience that can be led to buy a specific product. Since this policy is bad for the audience, it is also bad for business in the long run. It creates apathy through monotony, and boredom through excessive sensation. Horizons narrow. Imagination flickers out. Markets contract, as the movie industry had begun to discover even before television. But business does not take long views. It has to have quick turnovers. However, this is not a situation peculiar, for example, to the radio) movie, or Magic card industries.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well someone ought to post these
Meh
Look, the exact CMC of threaten is largely irrelevant, and it's also useless on some boardstates. This solves a lot of those problems, and what's more you can probably sell your prerelease copy of Kari Zev's Expertise for a pretty penny
Oh hey cool. I love me some vengevine, (Obviously, just look left), and this is pretty interesting. Rebuy your strangleroot geist, it's splashable, there's a decent ammount going for this thing.
Nice, good news in that these stupid ass split cards which are pretty interesting mechanically aren't limited to rares. I'd be disappointed if we just had 5 of these, for eg.
This card specifically is...interesting. Black isn't my usual color for Emerge Unscathed/Shelter type shenanigans, mostly because my black section tends to focus on creatures that WANT to die, rather than the other way around.
However, there's a lot I like about this. Giving even a bit of power is nice on this sort of thing, and unlike Armed // Dangerous (a similar analogue) you don't have to play this all at once if you don't want to.
Is it good enough? Iunno. But maybe.
Meh
Look, the exact CMC of threaten is largely irrelevant, and it's also useless on some boardstates. This solves a lot of those problems, and what's more you can probably sell your prerelease copy of Kari Zev's Expertise for a pretty penny
Oh hey cool. I love me some vengevine, (Obviously, just look left), and this is pretty interesting. Rebuy your strangleroot geist, it's splashable, there's a decent ammount going for this thing.
Nice, good news in that these stupid ass split cards which are pretty interesting mechanically aren't limited to rares. I'd be disappointed if we just had 5 of these, for eg.
This card specifically is...interesting. Black isn't my usual color for Emerge Unscathed/Shelter type shenanigans, mostly because my black section tends to focus on creatures that WANT to die, rather than the other way around.
However, there's a lot I like about this. Giving even a bit of power is nice on this sort of thing, and unlike Armed // Dangerous (a similar analogue) you don't have to play this all at once if you don't want to.
Is it good enough? Iunno. But maybe.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It only has Wildfire applications for a turn though if you don't draw lands
It only has Wildfire applications for a turn though if you don't draw lands
It lives through wildfire, you can pitch the cards you can't play with the discard ability + hit their Planeswalkers that lived through Wildfire, and then you should be able to attack on an open board once you've either pitched or played what you got. You're going to benefit off of this with wildfire whether or not you're drawing lands, as you probably don't have a full grip after getting to a point where Wildfire is cartable. You lose some of the Languish/Toxic deluge redundancy that rakdos wildfire decks have success with, but you get a 4 that lives through wildfire and has post-wildfire application, which is nice.