Dom Harvey
Contributor
Your drafters, probably
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- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
do some of you have any experience to share about the following, wether it being cube or limited experience:
It's great in my cube because blue is an aggressive color like the others. Breath before combat prevents 2 attacks + 2 blocks from 2 creatures or 3 attacks + 3 blocks from 1 creature. It's a huge tempo swing that buys a lot of time for midrange and wins games with aggro-control. 3 mana is clunky, but it's almost a double removal spell if your deck cares about tempo. Triggering prowess twice is pretty great too, and unlike flashback, it remains in the graveyard to be counted by Rise from the Tides or recurred. It is _not_ a heroic card though, because you never want to freeze your heroic target.
From the Distanced Draft we did:
UG Ramp/Tempo
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Emerge Unscathed is perfect for heroic - it protects your hero and triggers heroic for a single mana. It's a generally playable card too since it's so cheap to null removal, bad auras, make a chump block into a bounce-off, and the second casting, though less valuable, can just be a heroic trigger, unblockability, or most profitably remove a Pacifism. It's a great card.
Center Soul, on the other hand, costs twice as much, so it's a heroic enabler but you don't want it in random decks.
Thank you, japahn. 
sounds like it is exactly what I was hoping for.
Also, I did not want to use this as a heroic enabler. Choking Tethers and Feeling of Dread could be used for that, but not "freeze" tappers obv. Since I also have aggressive Ux archetypes (especially UB and UR) I'm definitely giving this a try.
Same is true for Emerge Unscathed. There are cards like Blossoming Defense, Shelter and Feat of Resistance/Snakeskin Veil in the cube that fulfill similar roles, and I see this on a par powerlevel-wise and fitting the archetype as a whole, so thank you for confirming.
sounds like it is exactly what I was hoping for.Also, I did not want to use this as a heroic enabler.
Choking Tethers and Feeling of Dread could be used for that, but not "freeze" tappers obv. Since I also have aggressive Ux archetypes (especially UB and UR) I'm definitely giving this a try.Same is true for Emerge Unscathed. There are cards like Blossoming Defense, Shelter and Feat of Resistance/Snakeskin Veil in the cube that fulfill similar roles, and I see this on a par powerlevel-wise and fitting the archetype as a whole, so thank you for confirming.
I can't think of a more oppressive card you could run in your cube hahaha. Tempting isn't it? But I think Black Lotus would be weaker in your environment than Counterbalance would be.So...
Who would strangle me if I put this little thing in Afternoon Delight?
I guess what are you looking to gain from running payoffs like that? Would a functioning elves archetype improve GB over everything else it could be doing? None of the above are particularly compelling besides maybe Imperious Perfect, which can operate on it's own as a 2/2 elf factory. My cube only has 7 incidental elves after looking into the cubecobra analysis. Not really awe-inspiring compared to, for instance, the 48 humans.
Compare roots of wisdom with
and it doesn't stak up particularly well, even with synergies. Grapple is an instant for one thing.
Compare roots of wisdom with
and it doesn't stak up particularly well, even with synergies. Grapple is an instant for one thing.
My guesstimates for a 360 cube at my cube's power level:
Skemfar Avenger: ~16, but count berserkers too.
Roots of Wisdom: not worth running
Bounty of Skemfar: ~13
Imperious Perfect: 0, it's good by itself, and was too good
Harald, Kind of Skemfar: ~14, but counting warriors too.
An annoying thing is how neither of those count tokens, except for Imperious Perfect, so you can't cheat on density with cards like Hunting Triad.
For higher power level I don't think any of those but Imperious Perfect are playable. For lower power level, they can tolerate slightly lower densities.
Skemfar Avenger: ~16, but count berserkers too.
Roots of Wisdom: not worth running
Bounty of Skemfar: ~13
Imperious Perfect: 0, it's good by itself, and was too good
Harald, Kind of Skemfar: ~14, but counting warriors too.
An annoying thing is how neither of those count tokens, except for Imperious Perfect, so you can't cheat on density with cards like Hunting Triad.
For higher power level I don't think any of those but Imperious Perfect are playable. For lower power level, they can tolerate slightly lower densities.
I guess this depends on how frequent it should be among drafters, since a theme could be "aggro" which is pretty general or "Equipment and aura boros" which is a little more specific. Ultimately this should end up in a persons deck, which means 23 playables usually. Not all 23 need to belong to the theme, in some cases mustn't if we're in a slightly more parasitic theme (i.e. not all decks want self mill cards), which means maybe half of the playables should be part of the theme?
If we want some variety to the theme then probably the drafter should have some on-theme cards left in their sideboard, so let's say half of their 45 picks are on-theme. That leaves us with about 22-23 cards out of 360, but maybe we want there to be some margin for error for the drafter to have on-theme cards snapped up by others, so we might bump that number higher. I think 30 seems like a nice round number? That'd be about 8% of a 360 card cube.
Pretty bogus estimates here, but I think working backwards from what would show up in the drafters 23 non-land cards is a good place to start. I would (as always) also recommend actually trying to build that 40 card test deck before hand just to get a feeling for what cards you'd actually slot in. Getting to play test and tweak it is ofc also good, then you'd have some data about what cards you probably need in the deck, so that you can then say "if I need X such cards and what probabilities Y and Z I will make these design choices".
If we want some variety to the theme then probably the drafter should have some on-theme cards left in their sideboard, so let's say half of their 45 picks are on-theme. That leaves us with about 22-23 cards out of 360, but maybe we want there to be some margin for error for the drafter to have on-theme cards snapped up by others, so we might bump that number higher. I think 30 seems like a nice round number? That'd be about 8% of a 360 card cube.
Pretty bogus estimates here, but I think working backwards from what would show up in the drafters 23 non-land cards is a good place to start. I would (as always) also recommend actually trying to build that 40 card test deck before hand just to get a feeling for what cards you'd actually slot in. Getting to play test and tweak it is ofc also good, then you'd have some data about what cards you probably need in the deck, so that you can then say "if I need X such cards and what probabilities Y and Z I will make these design choices".
So, most people here think of keywords such as hexproof, protection from x and indestructible as 'non-interactive'. Personally, I agree with that.
On the other hand, we also like temporary effects of that kind, since they act like counterplay to e.g. removal, or as combat tricks in case of protection and indestructible.
But how'd you rank them? Protection also provides some kind of evasion, thus is the most flexible one. Indestructible also helps vs sweepers, while it loses to -x/-x and exile effects. Hexproof is generally the best vs targeting spells.
Personally, I'd go like this
1. Protection
2. Indestructible
3. Hexproof
but I'm absolutely not sure since there are quite some effects in my list that get countered by hexproof and not by indestructible.
On the other hand, we also like temporary effects of that kind, since they act like counterplay to e.g. removal, or as combat tricks in case of protection and indestructible.
But how'd you rank them? Protection also provides some kind of evasion, thus is the most flexible one. Indestructible also helps vs sweepers, while it loses to -x/-x and exile effects. Hexproof is generally the best vs targeting spells.
Personally, I'd go like this
1. Protection
2. Indestructible
3. Hexproof
but I'm absolutely not sure since there are quite some effects in my list that get countered by hexproof and not by indestructible.
Rank them by power level? Probably
- Protection
- Hexproof
- Indestructible
Hexproof helps against bounce spells as well as act of treason effects beyond just plain removal so I definitely think hexproof is better than indestructible with protection being the best.
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, because combat is the specific situation where indestructible is a lot better than hexproof and these two are both combat tricks.
They seem to rank them relatively evenly from what I can see, maybe indestructible sliiightly higher than hexproof, as we have slippery bogle but not a 1 CMC indestructible counterpart that I can think of.
Those Charms are not comparable. I specifically found two cards with the exact same text. One costs twice as much as the other card.
I might have misunderstood the entire purpose of the conversation and for that I am sorry. I thought we were comparing protection, hexproof and indestructible on temporary effects.
If we’re talking about more permanent effects then indestructible is valued much higher. The closest example I could find:
Not exactly the same because one of them has a colored mana requirement.
I might have misunderstood the entire purpose of the conversation and for that I am sorry. I thought we were comparing protection, hexproof and indestructible on temporary effects.
If we’re talking about more permanent effects then indestructible is valued much higher. The closest example I could find:
Not exactly the same because one of them has a colored mana requirement.
"permanents you control gain indestructible until end of turn"
"permanents you control gain hexproof until end of turn"
How are those texts not comparable. They are literally as equivalent as your example, in which one is an uncommon and one is a common, which completely invalidates most comparisons.
"permanents you control gain hexproof until end of turn"
How are those texts not comparable. They are literally as equivalent as your example, in which one is an uncommon and one is a common, which completely invalidates most comparisons.
Why aren't those charms comparable? I think they are.
But you're correct Velrun, I asked for temporary effects. I think Rasmus is right, having indestructible on a combat trick is stronger than hexproof by a lot.
I asked this question because I wanted to evaluate some cards that compare somewhat:
Snakeskin Veil and Feat of Resistance
Blossoming Defense and Adamant Will
Gods Willing and Sheltering Light
Make a Stand and Akroma's Blessing
Then there are cards like Shelter, Emerge Unscathed, Ajani's Presence and Fight as One.
Hexproof actually doesn't have too many temporary effects to offer, and I even think about cutting it from green and making temporary protection/indestructible exclusive to white. I hope for this kind of effect having a good impact, since removal is weaker and the whole cube will get pretty combat-centric (it sucks not really being able to test due to covid, since it's a lot of theorycrafting).
But you're correct Velrun, I asked for temporary effects. I think Rasmus is right, having indestructible on a combat trick is stronger than hexproof by a lot.
I asked this question because I wanted to evaluate some cards that compare somewhat:
Snakeskin Veil and Feat of Resistance
Blossoming Defense and Adamant Will
Gods Willing and Sheltering Light
Make a Stand and Akroma's Blessing
Then there are cards like Shelter, Emerge Unscathed, Ajani's Presence and Fight as One.
Hexproof actually doesn't have too many temporary effects to offer, and I even think about cutting it from green and making temporary protection/indestructible exclusive to white. I hope for this kind of effect having a good impact, since removal is weaker and the whole cube will get pretty combat-centric (it sucks not really being able to test due to covid, since it's a lot of theorycrafting).
Hexproof in green protects top end beaters against removal in-color, which is very powerful. Green doesn't have much else in-color to use as temporary protection in that way. It makes cards like Blossoming Defense and Snakeskin Veil very valuable to green because they don't have to splash.
If the cube is combat-centric I would actually shy away from indestructible, as it can be such an unfair combat blowout. I prefer raw stat boosts on my tricks (giant growth, trumpet blast etc.). That said I very much dislike protection for the ability to give unblockable to colors that don't really deserve it, so for your third example I would definitely go with sheltering light. I would question if team-wide protection or indestructible are worth the negative potential? It seems to me to either exacerbate board clogs and/or lead to unilateral blowouts (team indestructible in response to a wrath is just GG basically, for example).
If the cube is combat-centric I would actually shy away from indestructible, as it can be such an unfair combat blowout. I prefer raw stat boosts on my tricks (giant growth, trumpet blast etc.). That said I very much dislike protection for the ability to give unblockable to colors that don't really deserve it, so for your third example I would definitely go with sheltering light. I would question if team-wide protection or indestructible are worth the negative potential? It seems to me to either exacerbate board clogs and/or lead to unilateral blowouts (team indestructible in response to a wrath is just GG basically, for example).
Really? I don't understand how - simply giving indestructible saves your creature, but it can't make it kill more blockers unless they were relying on first strike or something like that. And punishing mid-combat removal sounds like the awesome type of blowout.
Does your "specific" mean that indestructible is not a lot better than hexproof in other circumstances like creatures, auras?
Can you please explain. I have always put indestructible higher than hexproof since hexproof creatures die all the time and indestructible creatures almost never die. Luckily Wizards almost never print indestructible permanents.
I just think that if we had a card that said "Target creature gains hexproof until end of turn" and a card that aid "Target creature gains indestructible until end of turn" I think the hexproof one is more versatile? It's not a hill I'm going to die on.
Wouldn't that be a combat trick?
My point was in relation to the "+2/+2", which you'd ordinarily use in combat, whereas the plain "get hexproof/indestructible" effect is probably going to be most serviceable as a response to an opponent playing a spell or ability. Pairing growth and indestructible is in my opinion more powerful than hexproof, but if I have an evasive threat that I just want to keep connecting in some tempo deck I'd much rather protect it with temporary hexproof than indestructible.