My point was in relation to the "+2/+2", which you'd ordinarily use in combat, whereas the plain "get hexproof/indestructible" effect is probably going to be most serviceable as a response to an opponent playing a spell or ability. Pairing growth and indestructible is in my opinion more powerful than hexproof, but if I have an evasive threat that I just want to keep connecting in some tempo deck I'd much rather protect it with temporary hexproof than indestructible.
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My point was in relation to the "+2/+2", which you'd ordinarily use in combat, whereas the plain "get hexproof/indestructible" effect is probably going to be most serviceable as a response to an opponent playing a spell or ability. Pairing growth and indestructible is in my opinion more powerful than hexproof, but if I have an evasive threat that I just want to keep connecting in some tempo deck I'd much rather protect it with temporary hexproof than indestructible.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Targeted removal is usually more common than mass removal, so I agree that for the purpose of protecting your creature against removal, hexproof is generally better than indestructible. These two abilities may look alike, but in reality they don't really pan out in the same way. Indestructible makes a creature impossible to kill in combat, which allows it to attack and/or block with impunity. Outside of combat it does protect against Doom Blades and Lightning Bolts of course, but there's a wide range of effects that doesn't care about indestructibility at all. Hexproof on the other hand is at its best when the creature doesn't have to do combat with other creatures (or is naturally good at it, like carnage tyrant). A lot of the stuff that works against indestructible creatures doesn't work agains hexproof creatures (with some exceptions, of course), whereas it typically folds to mass removal spells that indestructible creatures are immune to.
Long story short, it's hard to compare these two mechanics. If you want to know which of these two effects you might want to run, you have to figure out what kind of effects you want your drafters be able to protect their creatures against.
Because it invalidates so much more than, say, just pumping +3/+3. Invalidates first strike, invalidates death touch, invalidates combat damage AND attempted removal. Invalidates burn stacking with a creature trade to kill a larger creature. You cant counter it with your own combat trick except also granting indestructible or just pumping your creature out of kill range for no other beneficial effect. Just takes the dynamics out of combat IMO. One major reason I have issues with most Theros gods. Like oh? you passed over the little mana symbol barrier? Heres a 5/6 perma-indestructible creature
.One major reason I have issues with most Theros gods. Like oh? you passed over the little mana symbol barrier? Heres a 5/6 perma-indestructible creature
Yeah, I really wish they could've made the indestructible more conditional. Maybe it could be indestructible as a creature but not in "enchantment mode"? A lot of interaction that's not possible otherwise
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
When Garruk's Gorehorn dies, put it into its owner’s library just beneath the top X cards of that library, where X is the number of creatures that died this turn.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
When Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless it escaped.
Whenever Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield or attacks, you gain 3 life and draw a card, then you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Escape— , Exile five other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Whenever Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield or attacks, you gain 3 life and draw a card, then you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Escape—
, Exile five other cards from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Maybe change the name to Gurok's Gurohorn thoughWhen Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless it escaped.
Whenever Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield or attacks, you gain 3 life and draw a card, then you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Escape—
When Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless it escaped.
Whenever Garruk's Gorehorn enters the battlefield or attacks, you gain 3 life and draw a card, then you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Escape—
I read the first sentence: "I like where Train is going with this. He's making a brand new monocolored Theros Titan."
I read the second sentence: "Oh my god.. He's just making Uro. Funny. The card is going to get banned so he's making his own Uro. That's pretty funny."
I read the third sentence: "Fixed Uro
Supernerfed actually"
Feed the Swarm is very awesome and pretty strong; however, my cube is low to the ground and doesn't have much incidental life gain. Changing either of those factors would radically change how effective it is. The Libation is a lot worse. (I think. I've not tried it in cube, but it was bad removal in its home format and literally never made my draft decks in Theros II, so I can't imagine it being stronger in cube.)
Sorry for doube posting, I overlooked Zoss reponse before
I've been quite happy with it. As a slightly more expensive Diabolic Edict, it is not breathtakingly strong, but since you can chose the mode, it usually becomes "destroy target enchantment" when needed. In Theros beyond Death you had many mediocre enchantments clogging up boards, where in cube you'll rarely have multiple enchantments out. And even then all of them will be strong, usually, so I am fine with my opponent chosing between sacrificing his Oblivion Ring and his Thopter Spy Network. I would want to get rid of both of these anyway and other black removal spells can't touch either.
I've been quite happy with it. As a slightly more expensive Diabolic Edict, it is not breathtakingly strong, but since you can chose the mode, it usually becomes "destroy target enchantment" when needed. In Theros beyond Death you had many mediocre enchantments clogging up boards, where in cube you'll rarely have multiple enchantments out. And even then all of them will be strong, usually, so I am fine with my opponent chosing between sacrificing his Oblivion Ring and his Thopter Spy Network. I would want to get rid of both of these anyway and other black removal spells can't touch either.
My current cube design slowly comes to an end, so I hopefully am able to give it beta status soon.
I designed it with tetra archetypes in mind, and while four of them are 'finished', the last one, which is still pretty undefined, gives me headache.
It's the green-less one and I already have Graveyard (Selfmill/Madness), Tokens/Aristocrats/Growers, Flash/'Blink'/Saboteurs and Spellslingers/Heroic as the other four. Those are mainly aggressive/midrange archetypes, with only some graveyard-based strategies being able to drive the value train.
Since I want some controlling strategies to be viable, too, and I just couldn't find anything interesting/fitting for that green-less tetra, I just thought I'd support control strategies in general, since those are also the typical control colours (yes, green fits control with good fixing and value, but I toned down on fixing a lot, so green usually ends up pretty aggressive).
I already looked up all the threads on riptide forums that discuss control in general. I want to support control with cards that other strategies also want, which can be reduced to removal, card draw/advantage and disruption (especially counters). This already makes up a lot of the cube, and other strategies want those cards, too, so I guess there isn't too much to be done to make this work.
Since my cube is very combat-centric and creature-heavy since I don't like having must-handle enchantments/artifacts on the battlefield that need narrow removal to be answered (so I don't include enchantments/artifacts like that in general, which also means I don't have any of those narrow answers in my list), and I also don't have permanent hexproof/shroud/protection/indestructible for reasons of interactivity, I guess my environment is pretty control-friendly in general. But if you want a control deck to come together, it needs some tools that draw you into the archetype, since those other strategies depend heavily on synergies, of which some are obvious and some reward 'going deep', which could make it hard for some people to actively see a 'control archetype' while drafting in the first place.
So, here's what I thought I'd need to come up with to make control not only viable, but interesting:
- Sweepers
In a combat-heavy environment, control (as the name tells) needs especially to be able to take control over the board. Those sweepers shouldn't be too effective and also not too plenty, as this will resualt in an archetype that is strong vs 3/5 of the cube and is therefore oppressing.
Same is true for other control elements like removal and disruption.
- Defensive cards
Some Lifegain always helps vs aggressive decks, but also cards that act as pseudo-lifegain and pseudo-removal alike: early blockers with big butts and maybe even some value attached to them like Omenspeaker, which is especially good vs tokens, and Ludevic's Test Subject, which is also a mana sink and finisher.
- Finishers
Now the question is: how do your control decks want to end games? Boy, riptide delivered on this one.
One big, maybe evasive, creature you protect until it has beaten the shit out of opponent?
Incidental mill on a lot of spells? Or going infinite with Elixir of Immortality and Psychic Spiral where the latter also functions as a finisher?
Returning Demonic Pact to your hand or through Dralnu, Lich Lord to bury your enemies in card advantage?
Drawing and drawing and drawing cards until you drop Laboratory Maniac?
Approach of the Second Sun?
I even thought about adding expensive, 'weak' planeswalkers like Dovin, Architect of Law, Ral, Caller of Storms, Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Angrath, the Flame-Chained (obv multicolour so not very splashable and especially attractive for this slower archetype). I don't run PWs since I hate them, they're usually op for their mana and either maximum snowbally or just biggest value over time without doing anything for it than just dropping the goddamn card to the board. Those I listed look like weaker versions that are still potentially great but not as strong as most others. I even thought about adding just one single planeswalker to give a control win condition to red in the form of Chandra, Pyrogenius. I still hesitate, since I really despise PWs, although they're like more interactive enchantments and, like I said, my cube is pretty board-centric.
Any suggestions, comments, feelings about my thoughts?
There's one possibility for my green-less tetra of which I think people will suggest right away, and I'll hide it in spoilers. Personally, I'm not a fan of that one, that's why I go with 'control' for the moment.
I designed it with tetra archetypes in mind, and while four of them are 'finished', the last one, which is still pretty undefined, gives me headache.
It's the green-less one
and I already have Graveyard (Selfmill/Madness), Tokens/Aristocrats/Growers, Flash/'Blink'/Saboteurs and Spellslingers/Heroic as the other four. Those are mainly aggressive/midrange archetypes, with only some graveyard-based strategies being able to drive the value train.Since I want some controlling strategies to be viable, too, and I just couldn't find anything interesting/fitting for that green-less tetra, I just thought I'd support control strategies in general, since those are also the typical control colours (yes, green fits control with good fixing and value, but I toned down on fixing a lot, so green usually ends up pretty aggressive).
I already looked up all the threads on riptide forums that discuss control in general. I want to support control with cards that other strategies also want, which can be reduced to removal, card draw/advantage and disruption (especially counters). This already makes up a lot of the cube, and other strategies want those cards, too, so I guess there isn't too much to be done to make this work.
Since my cube is very combat-centric and creature-heavy since I don't like having must-handle enchantments/artifacts on the battlefield that need narrow removal to be answered (so I don't include enchantments/artifacts like that in general, which also means I don't have any of those narrow answers in my list), and I also don't have permanent hexproof/shroud/protection/indestructible for reasons of interactivity, I guess my environment is pretty control-friendly in general. But if you want a control deck to come together, it needs some tools that draw you into the archetype, since those other strategies depend heavily on synergies, of which some are obvious and some reward 'going deep', which could make it hard for some people to actively see a 'control archetype' while drafting in the first place.
So, here's what I thought I'd need to come up with to make control not only viable, but interesting:
- Sweepers
In a combat-heavy environment, control (as the name tells) needs especially to be able to take control over the board. Those sweepers shouldn't be too effective and also not too plenty, as this will resualt in an archetype that is strong vs 3/5 of the cube and is therefore oppressing.
Same is true for other control elements like removal and disruption.
- Defensive cards
Some Lifegain always helps vs aggressive decks, but also cards that act as pseudo-lifegain and pseudo-removal alike: early blockers with big butts and maybe even some value attached to them like Omenspeaker, which is especially good vs tokens, and Ludevic's Test Subject, which is also a mana sink and finisher.
- Finishers
Now the question is: how do your control decks want to end games? Boy, riptide delivered on this one.
One big, maybe evasive, creature you protect until it has beaten the shit out of opponent?
Incidental mill on a lot of spells? Or going infinite with Elixir of Immortality and Psychic Spiral where the latter also functions as a finisher?
Returning Demonic Pact to your hand or through Dralnu, Lich Lord to bury your enemies in card advantage?
Drawing and drawing and drawing cards until you drop Laboratory Maniac?
Approach of the Second Sun?
I even thought about adding expensive, 'weak' planeswalkers like Dovin, Architect of Law, Ral, Caller of Storms, Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Angrath, the Flame-Chained (obv multicolour so not very splashable and especially attractive for this slower archetype). I don't run PWs since I hate them, they're usually op for their mana and either maximum snowbally or just biggest value over time without doing anything for it than just dropping the goddamn card to the board. Those I listed look like weaker versions that are still potentially great but not as strong as most others. I even thought about adding just one single planeswalker to give a control win condition to red in the form of Chandra, Pyrogenius. I still hesitate, since I really despise PWs, although they're like more interactive enchantments and, like I said, my cube is pretty board-centric.
Any suggestions, comments, feelings about my thoughts?
There's one possibility for my green-less tetra of which I think people will suggest right away, and I'll hide it in spoilers. Personally, I'm not a fan of that one, that's why I go with 'control' for the moment.
Artifacts/Historic
I would add generic aggro/control pieces without making it one of your five core archrtypes.
Another idea for non-green would be spell velocity. Whenever you cast a spel/cast your second spell/cast a noncreature spell-effects are plenty in those colors. You have bounce, flashback, adventures, buyback, prowess, retrace etc. In these colors too.
Just a few signposts coming to my mind. And not having green with a lot of ramp in your cube also prevents that this feels like 5-color.
Another idea for non-green would be spell velocity. Whenever you cast a spel/cast your second spell/cast a noncreature spell-effects are plenty in those colors. You have bounce, flashback, adventures, buyback, prowess, retrace etc. In these colors too.
Just a few signposts coming to my mind. And not having green with a lot of ramp in your cube also prevents that this feels like 5-color.
Well, I want my aggro decks to be synergistic, so no lame Savannah Lions and the like. It's a completely different angle from design perspective.
I also already listed Spellslingers/Heroic, which happens to be my non-black archetype. There's plenty of prowess/heroic/cast 2nd spell and ofc flashback/retrace there.
No 'oops' needed here, also didnt want to sound offensive in any way.
Since I havent finished the list because of mentioned green-,less archetype there actually is no list, aus this cube only exists in theory. I think I'm going to upload it in a few days, maybe even tomorrow, though, since discussing a cube without some kind of basis doesnt make any sense.
EDIT: I was drunk last night lol
won't be able to upload it today, but will do so soon.
Since I havent finished the list because of mentioned green-,less archetype there actually is no list, aus this cube only exists in theory. I think I'm going to upload it in a few days, maybe even tomorrow, though, since discussing a cube without some kind of basis doesnt make any sense.
EDIT: I was drunk last night lol
won't be able to upload it today, but will do so soon.