General CBS

[Chris Taylor]

You guys should all go check out the ranty page and a half of posts I made about my cube over in that thread because nobody should talk for that long and be ignored!
linky

 

[CML]

oh man yeah.

this is a serious idea, though -- you don't need to be a strong player to make a great cube, but then: who is assessing how strong cards are, who is seeing how they work with each other, and who is playing with it?

 

[Jason Waddell]

I think the smiley is kind of indicating that you're joking yet you say this kind of thing enough to make me think you believe it. To me it feels like a BS mantra and is incongruous with your other "good players here have terrible taste in cubes", which in turn feels like a way of trying to gain de facto argument-winning status on the backs of a PTQ top 8 once upon a time.

Personally if I design only for people who are "at least as hardcore as me" or whatever then I've failed in a pretty unfortunate way.

 

[Jason Waddell]

To elaborate:
1) Strength misjudgments are only problematic so much as they cause problems. The people who make Starcraft are (mostly, if not entirely) not tournament-quality players, and the skill level of their population changes over time (as do the game mechanics, with constant iterative patching). I doubt that the creators of whatever games you like to watch competitively (soccer, poker) were particularly proficient either.

I agree that games need to be balanced at the highest level if adopted competitively, but this is far more of a problem in the context of constructed (or retail limited) than in cube. If your designers are insufficiently skilled to try and stress-test a metagame, then bad things can happen when it reaches the general public.

In cube the main consequences of misevaluating power level are that: archetypes become over or underplayed, or under or over-perform. Maybe you have some dead cards, maybe you have some bombs that are overpowered. Some of these problems naturally correct themselves though the mechanic of drafting (to some degree), some don't. All of these things are fairly easily apparent, regardless of the skill level of your playgroup.


I'm rambling because I haven't quite found the crux of my argument. I think the most valuable thing a designer can do is create good dynamics. It's possible you think you've done that but because of misevaluation you haven't. Maybe you put in a cool Azorious deck in your environment but your players discover they are better off siding into 39 Swamps + Pack Rat. That's easily fixable. What's less fixable are rigid environmental structures (Esper in Alara, Infect, Guild decks) or mechanics that simply aren't all that much fun for the players. Those take thought, effort. Dynamics are hard to conceptualize, and hard to implement. Good players can reveal flaws in these dynamics that bad players don't, but, like in Starcraft, you can patch as things develop.

 

[CML]

I think the smiley is kind of indicating that you're joking yet you say this kind of thing enough to make me think you believe it. To me it feels like a BS mantra and is incongruous with your other "good players here have terrible taste in cubes", which in turn feels like a way of trying to gain de facto argument-winning status on the backs of a PTQ top 8 once upon a time.

Personally if I design only for people who are "at least as hardcore as me" or whatever then I've failed in a pretty unfortunate way.

now we're getting somewhere. what makes an opinion worthwhile? a "PTQ top 8" (metaphorically) is a small nudge in one direction, but bringing it up too much might be a bigger nudge in the other direction. what do we do with the idea it's overvalued in (say) hearthstone job apps and every competitive mtg player who's ever lived? strength of ideas can be judged in a vacuum, but only so much. who has time to try every idea? if they try every idea then do they ever arrive at a good idea? why are they not doing other stuff with their life? is the good idea going to result in a quality (deck, cube, game) sooner or later, when it comes time to play the damn thing?

i guess i come out as someone who'd rather err on the side of designing for competitive players. having a bunch of competitive players and creative deckbuilders (the two are positively correlated, in spite of what every EDH person will tell you) come over and draft and play is the most fun i have playing cube, but this is hard to organize and i would consider my Cube a failure if my dad or some of our less competitive or skilled friends couldn't battle with it. that being said, how good of a Cube could kitchen-table Cube enthusiasts with no knowledge of competitive Magic but a thorough grounding in game design (from playing hella other games, maybe some competitively) turn out? that being said, isnt it liberating to be freed from the market research conditions that wotc has and certainly uses as excuses for (what we consider) bad design?

 

[Jason Waddell]

On-topic Skype convo:

Spoiler

my main argument is cube is more fun when we have a bunch of competitive players come over
[9:59:00 AM] CML: but its pretty hard
[9:59:04 AM] CML: to organize that
[9:59:11 AM] Jason Waddell: I can agree with that notion
[9:59:14 AM] CML: on the other hand not much to learn about cube design by having "8 hannes"
[9:59:22 AM] CML: but on the other other hand
[9:59:25 AM] Jason Waddell: but everything is more fun when you have more competitive players around
[9:59:38 AM] Jason Waddell: I Smashed last year with a bunch of noobs and it was pretty boring
[9:59:41 AM] CML: isnt it liberating to be freed from the market research conditions that wotc has and certainly uses as excuses for (what we consider) bad design
[9:59:50 AM] CML: yeah competing notions of pluralism
[9:59:51 AM] CML: hooray
[10:00:00 AM] Jason Waddell: I also think games have to work well with bad players
[10:00:15 AM] Jason Waddell: perhaps not ideally well, but well nonetheless
[10:00:38 AM] Jason Waddell: sometimes you have in fighting games bullshit tactics that are near unbeatable when you suck
[10:00:45 AM] Jason Waddell: but are balanced and fine when you're good
[10:00:55 AM] Jason Waddell: and maybe that's fine, but maybe it's not
[10:01:03 AM] Jason Waddell: although I don't know if that applies here
[10:01:41 AM] Jason Waddell: especially when people reply to "Cube Fallacy" by saying glass-cannons aren't a problem if you just "play better"
[10:01:54 AM] Jason Waddell: like any degree of good play trumps "Channel Ulamog"
[10:02:56 AM] CML: sure
[10:03:09 AM] CML: well itd be boring if the better player won every time
[10:03:31 AM] CML: i hope i wheel that p1p1 etherium astrolabe is all im saying
[10:04:23 AM] CML: sc patching was less continuous
[10:04:25 AM] CML: only a few here and there
[10:04:54 AM] Jason Waddell: well, sc2 patching
[10:05:04 AM] Jason Waddell: at least when I played was pretty continuous
[10:05:11 AM] CML: sure i didnt play that much
[10:05:23 AM] CML: virgin draft formats are extremely fun though
[10:05:32 AM] Jason Waddell: not implicitly
[10:05:40 AM] CML: haha for me they are
[10:05:50 AM] Jason Waddell: I have a friend's power cube for you then
[10:05:57 AM] CML: i do think wotc puts a great deal of time and effort into making them more first-time friendly though
[10:05:58 AM] CML: now
[10:06:04 AM] CML: nah power cube isnt fresh
[10:06:12 AM] CML: like with mirage nobody drafted
[10:06:28 AM] CML: newer sets are more friendly to first tiem drafters (im sure nwo addresses someof this)
[10:06:43 AM] CML: some are more grokkable right away than others though (m15 over ROE)
[10:06:55 AM] CML: actually the more archetype dependent they are the harder on the beginner they are
[10:06:56 AM] Jason Waddell: do you think Wizards would make sets be good draft environments if it weren't profitable?
[10:07:16 AM] CML: anyway that kind of insight is what im looking for out of that thread
[10:07:20 AM] Jason Waddell: I think a format like RTR is super easy for beginners
[10:07:30 AM] Jason Waddell: and it's very archetype dependent
[10:08:03 AM] CML: sure
[10:08:04 AM] Jason Waddell: it depends on the archetype I'd say
[10:08:09 AM] CML: yeah
[10:08:11 AM] Jason Waddell: something like Spider Spawning is less obvious
[10:08:17 AM] CML: nobody knows wtf "eldrazi ramp" is
[10:08:27 AM] CML: i guess UW levelers is more likely
[10:08:39 AM] CML: but still youll get massacred more than "good cards that are green and/or white" in RTR
[1004 AM] Jason Waddell: right
[1030 AM] Jason Waddell: I think good players are more efficient at showing you that your ideas don't work as you envisioned
[1041 AM] CML: but they also show some ideas do work
[1043 AM] CML: in general youre right im sure
[1048 AM] Jason Waddell: but I don't think you being a good player is necessary for recieving such feedback
[10:11:06 AM] Jason Waddell: like I agree with the idea that good players are useful for game design
[10:11:14 AM] CML: yeah i got some horrible feedback from two wizards employees who are strong players
[10:11:16 AM] CML: (conversely)
[10:11:28 AM] CML: player quality is ancillary to taste and not vice versa
[10:11:28 AM] Jason Waddell: but not with the requirement that the designer need himself be a good player

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I think all that he is saying is that accessibility is important. Having 360 brand new text heavy cards is information overload, and it results in players tuning out in the draft if there is nothing to guide them in what may or may not be good in that environment.

And I agree.

 

[Tyrole]

Great conversations! Due to the relative inexperience my draft group has, I run into a lot of these same "read every card" challenges when drafting. Not only does it slow down the draft process immensely, it also tires the drafters quickly to the point where they also tend to stop reading most cards and just choose on-color. I believe card turn-over and card complexity are two of my greatest design challenges at the moment, mostly due to the experience and card familiarity levels of my play group. It's especially tough because I personally love new draft formats where I "get" to read every card for the first time.

On the other hand, I know there are some broken combinations in my cube, but due to their level of experience, my playgroup has yet to find and exploit them. I like to think of it as a Cube Easter Egg. When someone finally pulls it off, they will probably be pretty proud of themselves and have a lot of fun, and then I can fix it. In the meantime, it lets me sneak in a few cards that a more skilled playgroup would instantly break.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

As someone who plays with "Gamers who play Magic" rather then "Magic Players", they don't care about the difference between a real card and a custom card because much of the time they are new to them. This issue really exacerbates itself as you play with people who have built up specific expectations.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Postdraft thoughts from phone:
If you are missing a card and randomly jam a second Primeval Titan in you're gonna have a bad time.
I played UBr Tezz, which was super sweet but my deck was pretty inconsistent. I wish there were more useful artifacts that aren't mana rocks.
Demonic Tutor did a ton of good work in that deck.
Trading Post was super slow and only would have been good one game, the game where I tutored for another card (incorrectly)
Soul Reap and Shambling Remains are perfect inclusions.
Errata on Kathari Screecher felt good and the card did work in a non-zombie deck.
4/4 Sphinxes + Top is really good but Hannes manages to 0-3 nonetheless.
UR Sygg Delver went 3-0 and was really sweet, in spite of only getting one Brainstorm.
Somebody went 2-1 with a Gravecrawler control deck but I don't really get it.

 

[Jason Waddell]

People played Entomb and the erratad flashback seemed fine.

 

[CML]

I think all that he is saying is that accessibility is important. Having 360 brand new text heavy cards is information overload, and it results in players tuning out in the draft if there is nothing to guide them in what may or may not be good in that environment.

And I agree.

this is also an issue in formats with small card pools, though. for example, if you begin playing the format with Punishing Jund and don't know to play around Stifle when your opponent plays Scalding Tarn and passes, or if you run a Goyf into Daze or fetch when they have a Port or whatever you just get fucked sometimes. the opposite extreme breeds the same problem. the guys who play only Legacy are altogether too 'specialized'; they rarely play other games (as FSR correctly points out as a virtue); they rarely play other formats, and are not skilled players when it comes to Standard or Limited.

when you look at this broad-minded inclusivity seems irreproachable, and it is. but then you think about Ken Nagle, Wizards' casual designer, coming out with a cycle of useless lazy boring uninspired EDH fanservice rares (like Dictates) every set, and, when he does foray into competitive play, designing True-Name Nemesis, and that's a problem too.

personally i look back upon the times i confronted a new draft format -- where everyone was doing the same, a bunch of drunken, jobless college grads tippling and learning Time Spiral block together -- as some of my happiest Magic experiences, and it feels weird that this is not representative. Though when that crew's remnants come by to draft with the spikes (to whom they refer, derisively, as "your Magic friends"), they bitch about being hassled and so forth; they do not fit well into the spike ecology. these experiences, along with the cabal of douchebags that always brings someone's shit Modo Cube in paper to every regional PTQ (the biggest waste of money since the Iraq war; I used to think nerds should be given more money, until I saw what they spent it on), make me wary of having my Cube 'disappear into its own asshole.'

 

[Lucre]

Postdraft thoughts from phone:
I played UBr Tezz, which was super sweet but my deck was pretty inconsistent. I wish there were more useful artifacts that aren't mana rocks.
Demonic Tutor did a ton of good work in that deck.
Trading Post was super slow and only would have been good one game, the game where I tutored for another card (incorrectly)
Soul Reap and Shambling Remains are perfect inclusions.
Errata on Kathari Screecher felt good and the card did work in a non-zombie deck.
4/4 Sphinxes + Top is really good but Hannes manages to 0-3 nonetheless.

Consider adding some more artifact themes to your cube, also there are artifact versions of many spells out there that can be subbed in for staples. You all already know about my idea to add enabler cards like spellbombs to the land draft so I won't get into it too deeply.
The problem with artifact answers is that they are usually really grindy and kinda cumbersome, whereas the UB deck usually wants things that are really efficient trades it has grindy sources of advantage already so staff and manipulator and such seem kinda bad..
Do you think errata Chaos Orb is no fun?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Consider adding some more artifact themes to your cube, also there are artifact versions of many spells out there that can be subbed in for staples. You all already know about my idea to add enabler cards like spellbombs to the land draft so I won't get into it too deeply.
The problem with artifact answers is that they are usually really grindy and kinda cumbersome, whereas the UB deck usually wants things that are really efficient trades it has grindy sources of advantage already so staff and manipulator and such seem kinda bad..
Do you think errata Chaos Orb is no fun?

No fun? Hardly. Too easy a pick? Probably.

I don't see many magic cards being better than colorless vindicate that sun titan brings back

 

[Diakonov]

Do you think errata Chaos Orb is no fun?

Do you think non-errata Chaos Orb is no fun? We've had no problems with it here. Speaking of Trading Post, someone in our last draft built a fun 2-1 deck combining the two.

On "topic": everyone loves a new format and new cards. Just look at your local pre-release...who knows where all these people come from. Every three months I find it hard to believe that there are so many magic players in my area.

A few things about that. New cards are way more fun in Sealed than in Draft. It is a lot easier to get upset because someone beats you down with a card that you did not RTFC due to laziness or time pressure. Sealed is an ideal environment to become accustomed to new cards and identifying set synergies.

A devil's advocate here might be that many "new" cards are really functional reprints or extremely simple variations and don't take much time to read or process (ex: Burst Lightning is Shock +thing). This makes the new card experience much easier to handle compared to some cube designers' custom cards, depending on the designers' style.

With regard to NWO making things easier for new players, it would seem to be true. Pre-release promos tend to be mindless bombs which increases the average deck variance in favor of worse players. Same with packs containing more bomby rares, etc.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Somehow this thread fell almost to the third page of the forum.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/woo-brews-zombie-combo/

 

[Lucre]

Do you think non-errata Chaos Orb is no fun? We've had no problems with it here. Speaking of Trading Post, someone in our last draft built a fun 2-1 deck combining the two.

On "topic": everyone loves a new format and new cards. Just look at your local pre-release...who knows where all these people come from. Every three months I find it hard to believe that there are so many magic players in my area.

A few things about that. New cards are way more fun in Sealed than in Draft. It is a lot easier to get upset because someone beats you down with a card that you did not RTFC due to laziness or time pressure. Sealed is an ideal environment to become accustomed to new cards and identifying set synergies.

A devil's advocate here might be that many "new" cards are really functional reprints or extremely simple variations and don't take much time to read or process (ex: Burst Lightning is Shock +thing). This makes the new card experience much easier to handle compared to some cube designers' custom cards, depending on the designers' style.

With regard to NWO making things easier for new players, it would seem to be true. Pre-release promos tend to be mindless bombs which increases the average deck variance in favor of worse players. Same with packs containing more bomby rares, etc.

Totally agree about some of the sealed stuff. My favourite ways to play with new cards are either new cube additions, mock constructed testing or sitting down at a bar sealed event with a little extra time to build your deck.

I am kind of infinitely more scared of the effects of a non-errata chaos orb than an errata one. I don't like throwing the new game into the cube unless everyone is excited and down for it. I also just think 3 mana is too much to be able to totes miss.

 

[Diakonov]

I am kind of infinitely more scared of the effects of a non-errata chaos orb than an errata one. I don't like throwing the new game into the cube unless everyone is excited and down for it. I also just think 3 mana is too much to be able to totes miss.

Yeah, it's definitely a personal preference thing. I do wish it had less variance, but people enjoy it in my cube specifically because of the physical actions it requires, which can be exciting. Honestly though, it's at a very reasonable power level. A colorless Vindicate (that can easily be recurred) should have some sort significant drawback.

 

[Lucre]

I dunno I don't find it offensive.
Are you also into this bad boy?



I know it's not the same I'm just being funny. How easy is it to recur artifacts in your cube?

 

[Chris Taylor]

Sun titan is the big offender here I think. Even if there's not much else, that's basically a hard lock...

 

[Lucre]

wow a two card combo at 7 mana that attritions your opponent out of the game by removing resources.
It's almost as good as sheoldred. (Yes before you jump on my back I know they are different I'm just saying, big whoop, this isn't an unfair reward.)

 

[Diakonov]

I dunno I don't find it offensive.
Are you also into this bad boy?



I know it's not the same I'm just being funny. How easy is it to recur artifacts in your cube?

Sun Titan
Goblin Welder
Eternal Witness
Trading Post
Academy Ruins

Yeah, there is a varying degree of randomness to the card. Some people are better at using it. I think that's a good thing, since someone who is decent at using it can be really excited when it comes around to them. It's also fun to watch someone who's bad at it, too: I once saw a toss where it bounced and came back and killed the controller's creature. Many lols were had

 

[Chris Taylor]

wow a two card combo at 7 mana that attritions your opponent out of the game by removing resources.
It's almost as good as sheoldred. (Yes before you jump on my back I know they are different I'm just saying, big whoop, this isn't an unfair reward.)

I think what it is is that you're being rewarded for playing cards that are insanely strong already. Most of the synergy based combos in cubes are bringing niche cards up to above average power level, whereas sun titan and chaos orb is bringing two cards already of lightning bolt quality even higher (however much it may be)

Like the combo of Gideon Jura and other planeswalkers isn't the kind of synergy most people want in their cube IIRC

 

[Lucre]

Man I just don't consider sun titan anywhere near as powerful as you seem to. I have no idea why you'd want to play cards in your cube that are bad unless paired with something. This is still close to a singleton format. I like solid cards at worst unless you are employing some dubious principle of having lot of intentionally tabling cards that are there to feed only particular decks who have already taken the requisite enablers.

I really just don't find chaos orb that crazy. Removing things for 3 mana is pretty normsies right? I guess it's weird that it can be used as an instant, I don't particularly like that much, but it's one card among many and often it plays like any other analogue, just able to be played in a wider variety of decks. I don't mind 2 card endgame combos being kinda damning. I actually like it a lot more than things like pants or double strike themes that can drastically warp games in one turn early in the game when it works and feels like a concession of sorts when the stars aren't aligning.

Yes I know thrun + wolf run isn't fun, I know wargear + resilient weenie fucking sucks, I know it's annoying when your opponent gets gideon and tamiyo out but I don't feel like these are issues that are big enough to start worrying about. I'm saying, I can stomach when good cards interact in pretty unique and powerful ways because I'm hoping that happens over a breadth of cards in my cube and finding the better sweet combinations of sweet cards isn't going to be possible most of the time, and isn't even damning if your opponent has been working on their own advantages through a game. I know I've beaten orb titan before and it was because I had a deck full of good cards that was doing what it was supposed to.

I'd be actually so happy if UW Aether Spellbomb/ Brittle Effigy/ Thirst For Knowledge/ bad Tinker/ Wayfarer's Bauble/ Chaos Orb/ Salvagers / Sun Titan combo control was something people drafted every other week in a cube I controlled, that's character!

Sun titan is sooooo lame and it would be so sweet to make something interesting out of it. Chaos orb is a better version of a bunch of cards that exist in cube but it's really not amazing from my experience, unless your format is really spotty or you run bounce lands.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I see your point, and maybe the sun titan combo is more managable than we're giving it credit for, but it's still the easiest first pick of all time: A colorless instant speed unrestricted vindicate with synergy bonuses.

If it were a little more expensive to make it slightly inefficient to compensate how many upsides it has, maybe. Maybe 1 + 3 to activate, or 2 + 2?