Chris Taylor
Contributor
I even like the FTV one better
General CBS
- Thread starter James Stevenson
- Start date
Is it considered sacrilege around these parts to proxy? Like...my entire cube?
Generally the consensus seems to be "do whatever you want. Don't let your budget stand in the way of your design."
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Those look pretty boss Safra! Is that a whole cubes? What did you pay for those proxies?
It's 108 cards; mostly for the Cube, a couple for the ULD (incl. a Riptide Laboratory). After shipping from Hong Kong I paid $25(using a $10-off coupon). If I had to do it again I'd be more careful sourcing HD scans - a couple cards are a little blurry - but I'm happy with the quality. You actually can't get more than 234 cards in a single project from the source I used, though I'm sure nothing's stopping someone from splitting a cube into two projects.
NGL i want to order a couple of legacy decks for when people wanna try the format; I'm curious about the Chinese foil source Suicufnoc mentioned earlier too. I'd have way more set cubes if I could just get them delivered to my door in a single order, probably (mass shipping to Canada is a real headache)
PLUS now all my basics, fetches and duals are full-art
According to Cubetutor my top ten are:
- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (Prerelease Foil)
- Liliana of the Veil
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor (FTV Foil)
- Noble Hierarch (Conflux Foil)
- Wasteland x3
- Snapcaster Mage
- Cryptic Command (MM1 Foil)
- Horizon Canopy
- Damnation
- Vendilion Clique (Morningtide)
When did this happen? I was on /r/mtgcube and all these people were talking about running double fetch.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/3pm4ds/how_much_support_is_enough_to_warrant_running/
Did this idea slowly permeate the rest of the cube community?
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgcube/comments/3pm4ds/how_much_support_is_enough_to_warrant_running/
Did this idea slowly permeate the rest of the cube community?
Yeah, people are coming around to a lot of RL ideas. There's people on mtgs doing ULDs, too.
Woah
Same issues when ordering from the guys that source their own scans. The first foils I ordered I got a nice Jace and Misty, and 9 blurry fetches. This second place seems more consistent, but I haven't seen their foils yet. I'll keep you posted.
Cheapest proxies I have found (med quality) are $20 for 72, which is $100 for a 360 cube, not counting basics. I'm kind of considering ordering an all proxy 180-270 powered cube, or the mono blue cube if I ever finish the list.
That's cool. That was my exact mentality. I proxy my whole cube.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Look what came in the mail!
These look sweet! I approve of the Judge Foil Wastelands
Can you PM me the details?
It's weird - the top commenter is a staunch, diehard, pro-establishment power-maxer, and even he's on the double fetch train. Ironically, I got into a twenty-post-long debate with him on the same subreddit sometime back to try and convince him to maaaaaybe break singleton elsewhere in his cube, and he was having none of it. But somehow the fetches are in a weird blind spot of his, where he somehow doesn't 'see' them as breaking singleton.
Aoret
Developer
I'd be curious about details as well Safra/SuicThese look sweet! I approve of the Judge Foil Wastelands
Can you PM me the details?
I'd be interested too, if you're already passing the details along. How do they compare from a "feel" standpoint to a real card? In a sleeve, could you tell the difference? My current proxies are printer paper over basic lands...
So I was hoping to start a discussion about cube theory...would this be the appropriate place to post...or should I start my own thread?
Aoret
Developer
Basically just do whatever you want. Threads derail all the time here and we routinely have the same discussion across 2-3 threads at once (see: simic)
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I'm all for home made or third party components. You can read my many rants on the subject. I have a large number of homemade board/card games in my collection. I have a cycle of homemade fetchlands. I think that the proccess of playing a game is something that can't be owned. I think the prices of Magic cards are insane due to a combination of artificial scarcity and convoluted distribution. I hate how WotC uses it powers to make people believe that its cards are "real" and how all others are "fake" through the ubiquity of its sanctioned events (and then fails to meet the demand for said cards to be used in said sanctioned events). The problems caused by this desperately need addressing.
But I look at those proxies and it depressed me. Proxies should be original creations that serve the purpose of allowing you to play the game. They should seek to fulfill the functionality of the game component they are replacing, but they should not actually attempt to BE that component. The prices of the first party component might be excessive and unreasonable, but they are a luxury. Luxuries are items of excess that serve no reasonable purpose. As publisher, WotC has the right to make money off the original component design. If you want to use the cards with the original layout/text/art, you should pay for them, either by buying packs or participating in the secondary market of cards that came from those packs. If you want to play the game but don't want to pay the prices for the first party components, you should make or support the creation of alternative components. Buying/making literal copies of the first party components is just attempting to profit* at the expense of others.
I believe that WotC has created this problem themselves and have taken no steps to solve it. I wish they would. LCGs have proven that this isn't the only system that makes money.
I don't look down on people for doing it, even though I wish they wouldn't. I understand why people do it. They really shouldn't have to. I just wish they would explore an alternative that was productive, rather then one that just feeds back into the problem.
Like I said, it depresses me a little bit.
That's my feelings on the subject as a librarian and as a game lover. I will likely never comment on this again because it kinda bums me out and I don't like sounding like a NARC, but I figure I should at least say it once to get it out there.
*Profit is used loosely here and doesn't necessarily refer to "making money". Presumably you are getting some sort of joy or pride out of your "realistic" looking proxies that you wouldn't from "homemade" ones and are doing so without compensating the creator whose work is what gives you said joy or pride.
But I look at those proxies and it depressed me. Proxies should be original creations that serve the purpose of allowing you to play the game. They should seek to fulfill the functionality of the game component they are replacing, but they should not actually attempt to BE that component. The prices of the first party component might be excessive and unreasonable, but they are a luxury. Luxuries are items of excess that serve no reasonable purpose. As publisher, WotC has the right to make money off the original component design. If you want to use the cards with the original layout/text/art, you should pay for them, either by buying packs or participating in the secondary market of cards that came from those packs. If you want to play the game but don't want to pay the prices for the first party components, you should make or support the creation of alternative components. Buying/making literal copies of the first party components is just attempting to profit* at the expense of others.
I believe that WotC has created this problem themselves and have taken no steps to solve it. I wish they would. LCGs have proven that this isn't the only system that makes money.
I don't look down on people for doing it, even though I wish they wouldn't. I understand why people do it. They really shouldn't have to. I just wish they would explore an alternative that was productive, rather then one that just feeds back into the problem.
Like I said, it depresses me a little bit.
That's my feelings on the subject as a librarian and as a game lover. I will likely never comment on this again because it kinda bums me out and I don't like sounding like a NARC, but I figure I should at least say it once to get it out there.
*Profit is used loosely here and doesn't necessarily refer to "making money". Presumably you are getting some sort of joy or pride out of your "realistic" looking proxies that you wouldn't from "homemade" ones and are doing so without compensating the creator whose work is what gives you said joy or pride.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I can totally respect this opinion.
For what it's worth, I strongly recommend Pucatrade for getting cube cards. I generally only proxy expensive cards that I want to test out initially (and then, if the work get them on Puca), and beta duals because they are nuts expensive and hard to trade for.
"You have sent 821 cards with a total value of 162,860 PucaPoints and you have received 387 cards from other members with a total value of 110,373 PucaPoints." It's a great way to turn standard staples / draft left-overs into real cards. I even managed to sell of some points for cash to cover the postage costs that added up over the last year or so.
"You have sent 821 cards with a total value of 162,860 PucaPoints and you have received 387 cards from other members with a total value of 110,373 PucaPoints." It's a great way to turn standard staples / draft left-overs into real cards. I even managed to sell of some points for cash to cover the postage costs that added up over the last year or so.
Aoret
Developer
Definitely respect your opinion FSR and the way that you delivered it. I'm probably one of the more vocal proponents of proxying here, but I haven't articulated my own stance on it very well in the past; I've just said "yes absolutely proxy everything"
My stance is essentially that cube design, as well as custom render design, are both forms of derivative art. Certainly neither is far enough removed to be considered "fair use" by US copyright law, which I'll gladly concede. Assuming we don't care about that and we're engaging in a purely moral discussion, I can make a better case for myself.
Regarding renders: I'm not an artist. At best, I can be creative when I'm sparked by the creativity of an artist. I'd never be able to sit down and create gorgeous alternate templates for cards, but I can certainly remix ideas that I've seen around, and create fun pairings of existing cards with artwork that I've found online. I can even occasionally throw in a few completely new artistic touches on my renders.
Regarding cube design: Proxies allow me to explore design space that would be otherwise impossible (I think I'm running 20 copies of each fetchland right now?). If I proxied shit versions of cards, 90% of the people I cube with would be unwilling to play with me. They are willing to play with proxied cards provided they look nice.
In summary, I completely respect your stance, but I think I'm creating a lot of beauty with what I'm doing. I wouldn't be able to do that if I behaved the way you suggest I should, so I'm going to keep doing my thing. (and just to reiterate, I'm really stoked that we can engage in this kind of discourse here where most forums would turn this kinda thing into a flame war)
My stance is essentially that cube design, as well as custom render design, are both forms of derivative art. Certainly neither is far enough removed to be considered "fair use" by US copyright law, which I'll gladly concede. Assuming we don't care about that and we're engaging in a purely moral discussion, I can make a better case for myself.
Regarding renders: I'm not an artist. At best, I can be creative when I'm sparked by the creativity of an artist. I'd never be able to sit down and create gorgeous alternate templates for cards, but I can certainly remix ideas that I've seen around, and create fun pairings of existing cards with artwork that I've found online. I can even occasionally throw in a few completely new artistic touches on my renders.
Regarding cube design: Proxies allow me to explore design space that would be otherwise impossible (I think I'm running 20 copies of each fetchland right now?). If I proxied shit versions of cards, 90% of the people I cube with would be unwilling to play with me. They are willing to play with proxied cards provided they look nice.
In summary, I completely respect your stance, but I think I'm creating a lot of beauty with what I'm doing. I wouldn't be able to do that if I behaved the way you suggest I should, so I'm going to keep doing my thing. (and just to reiterate, I'm really stoked that we can engage in this kind of discourse here where most forums would turn this kinda thing into a flame war)
I would argue that if something serve's the purpose of the original, it is effectively 99% the same as that component (assuming we're not trying to sell counterfeits or something)
I realize that many of us(including myself) like our cards to look nice, but a big part of the reason I use proxies that look like the real cards is that it makes things easier to recognize and read (in the pack, in hand, on the field, when your opponent plays it, etc...) Its a pain in the neck to play with crappy handwritten proxies and stuff. Even using different art adds some complexity to playing with the cube.
I have strong nostalgic feelings associated with owning real magic cards, so I can't help but hold onto them. I've liquidated basically everything that's worth money outside of what's in my cube.
I'm the same way with NES games. I have a small collection of cartridges which I stubbornly continue to use, even though I have everything on emulators that don't constantly malfunction and resist running games. The satisfaction of getting them to work is still part of the charm, I suppose.
I'm the same way with NES games. I have a small collection of cartridges which I stubbornly continue to use, even though I have everything on emulators that don't constantly malfunction and resist running games. The satisfaction of getting them to work is still part of the charm, I suppose.